Talk:Black people: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 15:59, 16 September 2005

Revision as of 01:36, 17 September 2005

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::Zaph, I haven't seen the Yoruba article, but rest assured that poor quality is what gets my ire up, not positive portrayals of black people. The word "pedantic" in my screen name reflects my sometimes obsessive concern for quality, accuracy, and comprehensibility of any writing. The problem with the article is not due to a lack of hard work. On the contrary, what we have here is a "too many cooks spoiling the broth" phenomenon. It's like a bunch of people keep coming by and piling more bricks onto a lousy foundation, and the building looks terrible and is about to fall apart 'cause it wasn't designed correctly to begin with. Some of it can be salvaged and made part of a better-designed article, but most of it is just poorly-written garbage.

::I don't have time right now to enumerate all the POV statements, but I'll start with one (actually, it shows up repeatedly) that I believe you were responsible for based on your comments on this Talk page: the repeated accusations of "eurocentrism" being leveled at everyone, but primarily at scientists. The problem with this is not that it's not true (I have no doubt that it is true, btw), it's that Wikipedia has a policy of [[no original research]] and [[neutral point of view]]. That means that this article can't just come out and say "European scientists are racist, white-supremacists, and euro-centrists". We need something more like "Professor So-and-so in his book Such-and-Such made the claim that many studies of racial differences have been adversely affected by the biases of the scientists conducting the studies." See how much better that is? [[User:ThePedanticPrick|ThePedanticPrick]] 15:59, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree that this needs a major rewrite. It is blatantly POV, bordering on anti-white racism. The article makes it out like there is an agreed-upon consensus in society that there is an ongoing vast conspiracy of whites to belittle and subjugate blacks and "Blackness". There are undoubtedly people who think this, and so their POV must be included ''amongst all others'' in order to achieve NPOV. The article must, however, 1) include specific references to professional academic research for every assertion; 2) make it clear that these are just one particular POV; and 3) include other POVs, as well. A few examples of specific problem areas are:

*''There is a constant attempt to reject Blackness outright by pointing out the "non African" aspect of Asian Blacks, or by relying on DNA markers to de-empathize any valid connection between the two groups.'' Blank assertion, unsubstantiated. Needs references, and needs to be toned down from such a broad generalization, and include differing points of view, too, to something like "In works such as ABC, Dr. DEF says that ... because ... Others, such as Dr. GHI, point out that..."

*''Most criticisms against the term are based on either a Eurocentric fear of its inclusion of others in the world outside of Africa and North America, or the use of hypodescent rules to try to classify anyone as Black, due to the fact that somewhere down the line, everyone has a Black ancestor no matter how far back in time one goes, even to the earliest prehistoric human days.''

*''However, the White established view is that these Cochin Jews are Black but not as Black as a Negro or a Black African.'' Again, blank, unsubstantiated assertion. Needs supporting evidence and references. Also, I live in the US and I don't notice many criticisms at all of the term, much less evidence that these reasons are productive of criticism.

*''Much like Jewry, Blackness is related to a history of struggle, oppression, and a sense of individual integrity in the face of superficial acceptance by those who would otherwise view Blackness with contempt or disdain.'' Highly POV assertion of opinion. Needs references to professional research, and needs to make it clear that many people - of whatever race - do not think this. Otherwise, needs to be removed.

*''The second, the intrinsic method, is where a person or group of people independently identify themselves as being black, either in response to the immoral caste system imposed upon them, or in recognition of their own love for others who share much of the same heritage.'' "immoral caste system imposed upon them"? This involves 1) the (highly controversial) POV judgement that there is a caste system; and 2) a further POV judgement that the purported caste system is immoral. Again, needs references to professional research, some indication that this is not a widely held opinion, or needs to be removed.

*''There has been a strong position by African Americans that regional proximity to Africa proper is and should be the third defining characteristic.'' Nobody at all is qualified to make such blanket statements about the position of "African Americans" in general. There is as much diversity of opinion amongst blacks as amongst any other large group of people. This is as ridiculous as making a generalization about the position of all "people who drive green cars" or all "people who like football". If some particular researcher or researchers who study black culture think this, then of course, that should be included, but it needs to be sourced and referenced.

These (and much of the rest of the article) are blatantly POV assertions. If we can find references to specific published works that advocate these POVs, I'm all for including these POVs, but we mustn't just assert them as though they are generally accepted fact. They need to be referenced, and the article needs to make it clear that they are controversial.

On the capitalization of "Black" throughout the article: as a racial identifier, the word "black" is written with lowercase-b "black", not uppercase-B "Black". Writing "Black" with an uppercase-B is as pretentious and racist as writing uppercase-W "White" is (which is almost never done outside the context of white supremacist literature), especially as almost all instances of "white" as a racial construct are written with lowercase-w. That is indisputably lopsided, racist, and belies the editorial slant that informs much of this article. And, allow me to say preemptively: no, this is not merely some knee-jerk reaction of a scared Eurocentric white afraid of the very concept of Blackness encroaching on my snowy-white Nazi worldview; as another poster said, nobody here has any idea what my race is, nor does it matter. This article needs major refactoring and referencing to become NPOV. [[User:Kwertii|Kwertii]] 01:36, 17 September 2005 (UTC)