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::::See [[Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]]. --[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]] ([[User talk:Gadget850|talk]]) 11:19, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
== Category:Wikipedia pages with broken references ==
Only letters M, P, R and S have a backlog in the category now. All other articles appearing under different letters should be seen to immediately and with relative ease. [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]] ([[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|talk]]) 23:35, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Are you the editor who has been working so hard on this category? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 02:36, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
But believe me that "with relative ease" is not true. There are close to 50 new articles in this category every day, in my experience. Some are just new articles, some are older articles (sometimes suprisingly old) that just got their first reference, some are the result of vandalism, while others are the result of some hard to find cause (I mentioned one above in the section References after {{tl|reflist}}). [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 02:42, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
:I've been tackling a number of new and old articles in the category to trim it down, but I don't think I'm the only one. I think it's easier to do newer ones rather than older ones because it is very obvious where the problem arose in the edit history – something not so obvious in the more-backlogged articles. Really, I suppose you need at least three editors to tackle this category just each day alone.
:I have to say that I've gotten to see the real dregs of WP's articles here, even more so than when I helped out on the eternal copyedit backlog. I feel quite guilty that I don't resolve other problems (e.g. wikifying) in those articles at the same but to do that would turn this into a full-time thing; I know my talents lie in writing content more than correcting it. The backlog should be reaching a more manageable level at this rate, so soon we shouldn't be finding articles that were last edited in January 2007! [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]] ([[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|talk]]) 04:15, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
:: Well, have a look at [[User_talk:Debresser#Broken_references|my talk page]] that I've been working on this category also, for quite some time now. Starting methodically, then quicker, and suddenly noticing some other editor is doing a lot of work there also. So that was you. Thank you.
:::We currently have 127, with perhaps 20-30 with a template problem. Looks like there's more to get on with! [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]] ([[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|talk]]) 03:43, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
:: You're right about the new articles being easier to tackle, but I do try to help out wikifying, etc. wherever I can.
:: As you can see on my talk page, I do a daily round of some eight maintenance categories, so your help, any help, especially on a more or less daily basis, is much appreciated. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 09:37, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
:::Look like you've been doing a lot of stuff! Excellent work. This kind of "grunt" maintenance work gets backlogged so easily. I got involved here after maybe the fourth or fifth time I saw the broken refs warning and wondered just how many articles had the same problem. Readers should hardly ''ever'' see this unless they broke something themselves. It's just plain ugly. I might look into the other categories at some point too. Cheers. [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]] ([[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|talk]]) 13:12, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
:::: The others are all empty (except for 1 template loop and 7 unsourced categories that are indeed hard to prove). [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 14:28, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
::::: [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]] has emptied the category: CONGRATULATIONS! <small>(unsigned)</small>[[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]])
::::::I think that was more of a joint effort! That was quite some going given that when I first saw the category there were over one thousand in there. Excellent stuff and thanks. [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]] ([[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|talk]]) 01:33, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
:::: Let's not fix any articles for 24 hours. You have a look in another 24 hours (I'll be out, so it's up to you), and tell us how many articles there are. I guess some 50-60 articles. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 02:01, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
:::::Sure. I'd like to see how many pile up here. As long as no one else is knowingly cleaning the cat, then we should be able to work out the average per day, and the average time needed to fix those problems. [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]] ([[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|talk]]) 02:22, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
:::: I found some 124. Fixed about 50 of them (including all templates, which have now been added upon my request). [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 22:09, 15 April 2009 (UTC) The three templates left are also fixed, but they are edit-protected and are waiting for the job-queue or a null-edit by an admin. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 02:21, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
:::::Why have all those templates suddenly appeared just now? [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]] ([[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|talk]]) 01:09, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
::::::Because the previous namespace detection was only for main/articles. Messages now only show on main, template, category, help and file pages. It is now possible to create a custom message for each namespace— we could automatically add {{tl|Reflist}} for templates. --[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]] ([[User talk:Gadget850|talk]]) 03:31, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
:::::::That sounds like a good idea. They're drowning out the articles which actually need reflists. [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]] ([[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|talk]]) 17:44, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
::::::No need, I'll fix them. Trying this automatically is not a good idea, because often the problem is another one, and because usually you need to add the {{tl|Reflist}} on the documentation page. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 21:04, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Fair enough. I'm not going to do any more because frankly I think it's a waste of my time. The fact of whether any of these templates "issues" are actually problematic (as it is on articles) is highly debatable. [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]] ([[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|talk]]) 22:09, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
:::::: Ha! That was before I had a look and saw that we have about 750 of them. And I noticed many of them don't have a documentation page. So I'm in favor of bot work. Frankly, I hadn't expected that many.
By the way, [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]], why don't you use the text from [[Help:Cite errors]], which reads
<pre>
<noinclude>
== References ==
''This reference list does not appear in the article.''
{{Reflist}}
</noinclude>
</pre>
? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 02:28, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
:Do you use AWB? --[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]] ([[User talk:Gadget850|talk]]) 03:11, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
:: No, I don't. It probably wouldn't work on my PC. I have XP with IE6. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 03:14, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
:::If anyone thinks it useful, we can put templates into a separate category. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup>'' 12:47, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
:: I don't see any point. Sounds like [[red tape]] to me. Just as [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Wikipedia_pages_with_broken_references&diff=284796432&oldid=284066739 this] adding of a category page to itself. What do you say we remove both the one you added ''and'' the one that was there before? It is a maintenance category, and as such doesn't need all these niceties that are sometimes made to make searching or cataloging easier. If not my personal respect for you I would have kicked it out a mile far. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 14:10, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
:::It was in [[:Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]] to begin with, but I removed it when I was trying to figure out why pages with missing reference tags were in both categories and forgot to put it back. It needs to be in some category, so I added it to [[:Category:Wikipedia references cleanup]]. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup>'' 16:36, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
:::: That was a superb idea. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 19:02, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
So is there a bot that can add a refsection to all templates? If there are any broken references, the templates shows up later in the other category and I fix it anyways. That's what happened with [[Template:2007_in_Australian_television_-_Ending_this_year]] to which [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]] added a refsection and I spent about half an hout to fix it and a few other related templates with broken refs. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 14:32, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
:See [[Help talk:Cite errors/Archive 2009#Bot Help]]. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 18:25, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
:: I talked to him. He's a little busy at the moment. There's another one I'm talkingto, and a third one who's doing another bot now on a permanent basis with great success whom I could also talk to. We'll see. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 05:30, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
I now have AWB. And fixed my first three templates with it. Had some trouble because I started on a low screen resolution. I think using AWB is a relatively easy way to add a references section. Any advice? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 23:49, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
== MediaWiki:Cite error group refs without references ==
I see [[MediaWiki:Cite error refs without references]] has namespace detection and a category, while [[MediaWiki:Cite error group refs without references]] doesn't. Is there any reason for this, or was it just forgotten? [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 11:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
:Already in discussion at [[#RE: Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]] and [[Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]]. --[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]] ([[User talk:Gadget850|talk]]) 12:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
:: I see no mention of this particular issue in either place. It looks like you just forgot to make the changes to both templates. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 13:14, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
:::*Actually Happy-melon made the namespace change to remove the "Cite error: There are {{tag|ref|open}} tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{tag|references|single}} tag" generated by [[MediaWiki:Cite error refs without references]] from talk pages after discussion at VP.
:::*We have had no discussion on removing the other messages from talk pages until now.
:::*Note that the [[:Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]] is transcluded by {{tl|broken ref}} that is included in [[MediaWiki:Cite error]].
:::--[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]] ([[User talk:Gadget850|talk]]) 13:40, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
:::: My point is that there are two messages for the "ref tag without references" error, and it seems odd that one puts pages in [[:Category:Wikipedia pages with broken references]] and the other doesn't. I don't actually care much about the namespace detection. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 15:22, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
:::::I went out in the weeds on that one and totally missed your point. We probably had no messages due to ''Cite error group refs without references'' and just did not think to update it. I don't see a problem in updating it to work like the other. --[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]] ([[User talk:Gadget850|talk]]) 16:05, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
See my proposal [[Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting|there]], which namespace to include and which not. And see [[#Talk pages|above]] that I made precisely the same proposal for [[MediaWiki:Cite error refs without references]] as for [[MediaWiki:Cite error group refs without references]]. I don't see any reason to make them work differently. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 15:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
:I thought this was going to be hard until I found {{tl|namespace detect showall}}. [[MediaWiki:Cite error group refs without references]] will now show only on main (article), template, category, help and file (image) namespaces.
:So now <ref group="abc">abc</ref>
<pre><ref group="abc">abc</ref></pre>
:no longer generates a message on talk pages. --[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]] ([[User talk:Gadget850|talk]]) 15:52, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. I'll work on them. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 19:26, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
::I am going to update {{tl|broken ref}} so we can control the namespace detection from one point. This way, if we change our minds on what namespace should be used, we can change it in one place. --[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]] ([[User talk:Gadget850|talk]]) 20:22, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
:::And it was added in November but got broken in January. Gotta untangle this. --[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]] ([[User talk:Gadget850|talk]]) 20:48, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
I saw in [[:Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]] a few pages like [[Category talk:Mottos]] or [[File talk:Snow leopard range.png]]. I can fix them, but I though talk pages weren't supposed to show up. Not to mention a Wikipedia page[[Wikipedia:Articles for creation/2008-03-27]]. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 23:52, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
:This was what all of the discussion was about: what pages to exclude. I updated {{tl|broken ref}} and applied it to each message— it now controls the namespace. Messages now only show on main, template, category, help and file pages. To add or remove namespaces, we now only need to change {{tl|broken ref}}. If you visit those pages and purge, the message and category will be gone. --[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]] ([[User talk:Gadget850|talk]]) 00:31, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I didn't write before trying that. But yes, it's fixed now. Thanks. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 01:35, 16 April 2009 (UTC) I fixed a few more templates, but I'll wait with the big work till the job queue removed all talk pages, portals and Wikipedia pages. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 03:05, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Somebody fixed almost all templates under the letter "T". I fixed a few new stray ones and the last ca. 25 he had left. Could you please fix [[Template:HighDefMediaComparison]]. It's editprotected. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 04:37, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
:Done. --[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]] ([[User talk:Gadget850|talk]]) 11:15, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
By the way, do you know why some templates are listed under the letter "T", but a few under the first letter of their name (e.g. [[Template:Broken ref]] in [[:Category:Wikipedia pages with broken references]], which is listed under the letter "B")? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 01:35, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
:The message puts the page in the category using <nowiki>{{PAGENAME}}</nowiki>, which uses the name without "Template:". I don't see any listed under T that should not be there. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup>'' 18:38, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
:: That's because I cleaned them all out. :) [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 19:02, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
== [[:Category:Articles with broken or outdated citations]] & [[:Category:Wikipedia pages with broken references]] ==
Should these categories be combined? They seem be similar issues.--<i><font color="#9966FF">[[User:BirgitteSB|Birgitte]]</font><font color="#CC99CC" size="2">SB</font></i> 16:27, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
:No. The first is populated by adding {{tl|citations broken}} to an article with a bunch of dead links. The second is populated automatically when cite.php generates an error message. --[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]] ([[User talk:Gadget850|talk]]) 16:35, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
== Namespace control ==
Now that the messages for malformed {{tag|ref}} tags use {{tl|broken ref}}, we can generate a different message based on the namespace. Since the message includes the category, this means that we could show the error on a talk page, but not place it in the tracking category.
The two messages for missing {{tag|references|single}} don't use {{tl|broken ref}} since they use a different category. We could add a message that would show only on talk pages that would include the {{tl|reflist}}.
--[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]] ([[User talk:Gadget850|talk]]) 11:42, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
== Template cite error message ==
I think the message now used for cite error "problems" on templates (i.e. those cases where footnoted sources are included without a <nowiki></references> or {{reflist}} </nowiki> tag) is poorly worded. It currently reads:
:== References ==
:''This reference list does not appear in the article.''
with a list of the template's footnotes following.
The problem with this is two-fold. First, because some editors working to "clean up" templates are now adding this wording directly to template documentation, it gives the appearance that the template itself is somehow at fault (probably principally because the words "the article" are used). Second, it does not give the editor any direction as to what to do to correct the problem.
I would like to suggest that the wording on this "cite error" message be changed to read :
:''Unless a <nowiki><references/> or {{Reflist}}</nowiki> tag is added to articles calling the [fill in the name here] template, the following footnotes will not appear.''
This would 1) make clear what footnotes will display (thus allowing editors to verify that they are correct) and 2) make clear what an editor needs to do to eliminate any display problem. [[User:MeegsC|MeegsC]] | [[User talk:MeegsC|Talk]] 22:16, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi. It's not "some editors", it's me. :)
I agree with [[User:MeegsC|MeegsC]] that the wording is ambiguous. As I explained to him on [[User_talk:Debresser#Reference_list|my talk page]] the meaning is indeed that '''this list''' will ''not'' appear in any article using the template, but the '''references''' themselves ''will''. I don't see how this could be expressed better.
The formulation he suggests here is also not good, because if indeed no references section will be made in the article, that will lead to an error message. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 21:00, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
:What do you mean by "this list" above Debresser? I think that's where my confusion comes in. To me, "this list" means "this list of things that follows". [[User:MeegsC|MeegsC]] | [[User talk:MeegsC|Talk]] 11:49, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
:: "This list" means the references list as it is on that template page. Which is ''not'' included with the template. To make it easier for you to understand, you must differentiate between the template page and the template itself. The page '''is not''' the template. And that is precisely the point being made. The list is part of the template ''page'', but not of the template itself, and does not get transcluded with it, but the references themselves do. Anyways, as I said before, whatever way you turn it, it's going to be ambiguous. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 14:16, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
:::I guess my point is that the message ''as it stands'' is completely incomprehensible to some of us; I'm afraid that some of us mere editors (and at least one template writer) would not intuitively understand that by "this list" you mean the references list '''on the template page only'''. Because that list '''is''' part of the article which calls the template: for example [[Template:Spheniscidae list header]] is called by [[List of birds of Madagascar]]. And right down there at the bottom, in the references section—lo and behold, there are the references ''which come from the template''. So the message, as it currently stands, is unclear—at least to me, but then perhaps I'm just thicker than the average editor! : ) However, the message also does nothing to tell an editor ''what to do to fix a reference problem'', which is presumably how these templates came up on your radar screen in the first place. I think we need to find a better solution! [[User:MeegsC|MeegsC]] | [[User talk:MeegsC|Talk]] 17:00, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
:::: Ok. No problem. Just that your proposals so far were either worse or just as ambiguous. But as soon as another ''good'' proposal comes up, I'll embrace it with both hands. In the mean time I think the present formulation is ambiguous but correct. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 19:02, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
== Template ==
[[User:Anomie]] suggested to me that we could make a template for this whole references section. That way we could easily change the text at will. I've made {{tl|Templaterefsection}}. It would have to be used inside <nowiki><noinclude></nowiki> tags. Please have a look. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 01:04, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
:Good start. You can't use the == header markup— the edit link will open the template, not the section; users will start editing the template by mistake. I will look at this tomorrow. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 02:04, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I don't quite catch you. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 08:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
:Headers markup like <code>==References==</code> creates an <code>[edit]</code> link. When you use it in a template, that <code>[edit]</code> always opens the ''template'' for editing. See the test at [[User:Gadget850/T1]]. There is a fix for this, but I have to wake up first. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 09:52, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I see. I added <nowiki><includeonly></nowiki> tags, and that solved the problem. But that has a sideeffect: that you can't edit the references section, only by editing all of the template. Which we can live with, but is a little strange. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 10:17, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I also added an explanatory text. And did you see that trick of mine, adding a second references section in <nowiki><noinclude></nowiki> tags? That can be removed, of course, should you think it better. I also made a documentation page. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 10:30, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I've done my daily round in all categories. Now I'm ready to start fixing templates. What will it be? We're going to use this new template or not? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 11:31, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
:Just getting in to work now. Give me a bit to check this out. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 12:52, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
::The References in the {{tag|noinclude}} does nothing, as it does not transclude to the page. We need to document its uses in two ways:
::* No documentation section: add it to the end of the template enclosed in {{tag|noinclude}}
::* Documentation section: add it to the end of the documentation
::---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 13:01, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
: The References in the {{tag|noinclude}} I added to give an idea of what the template would look like when used. I agree it is unnecessary and may be removed. On the other hand, I did like the trick.
: Why not have a documentation page? This is considered fancy and is generally recomended, no? It definitely adds to the clarity of the template, because it shows clearly what is and what isn't part of the template. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 14:59, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
::Adding a documentation page is certainly an option. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 15:05, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
So what do you say? Use the template, or not? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 17:48, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
:Make it so. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 23:20, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Got up to the letter "M" so far. I think you can notice the difference. I'm going to make two turns, fixing in the second turn those templates that the first turn couldn't fix, due to limitations in the software. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 23:49, 25 April 2009 (UTC) Fixed another 300 in 1h 17m (wolfish grin). [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 01:40, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
::I cleaned up the References header: it performs in the the same manner. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 11:51, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
::: Neat. Thanks. When I finish fixing the pages from the category, I'll go through my user contributions. There're some 195 templates I edited of late with the old formula. I'll change them to this new template of ours. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 14:35, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Fixed all templates in [[:Category:Wikipedia pages with broken references]]. And those that ended up in [[:Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]] too. And 133 templates that I fixed before we had this template as well. Templates gone. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 00:21, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
=== Not perfect ===
I just had to wrap this new template in <nowiki> <noinclude>'s</nowiki> on {{tl|2009 swine flu outbreak chart}}. Without them, it was adding a reference section to the top of [[2009 swine flu outbreak]]. --[[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="#000080">auburn</font><font color="#CC5500">pilot</font>]] [[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 00:50, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
Obviously. On a template you need <nowiki><noinclude></nowiki> tags. In a documentation page you don't. I'll put it in the documentation of {{tl|Templaterefsection}}. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 00:57, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
:Well, that makes sense. I wasn't the one who added it, but I likely would have assumed no need for noinclude tags given the name of the template (as if it is specifically designed for use on templates). A note on the documentation page is a good idea. --[[User:AuburnPilot|<font color="#000080">auburn</font><font color="#CC5500">pilot</font>]] [[User_talk:AuburnPilot|<small>talk</small>]] 00:59, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
:: I put it up. It would be nice if you didn't need the {{tag|noinclude}} tags, but it won't work that way. But often you don't need to add tags especially, e.g. when they are already there for categories or a documentation page. Then, you just add {{tl|Templaterefsection}} and you're done. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 01:03, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
:::I will update the documentation tomorrow. By design, {{tag|noinclude}} tags don't transclude. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 02:12, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
:::: When I said "I put it up", I meant that I had updated the documentation page. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 10:23, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
=== Protected ===
Wow, the template was semi-protected today. What an honor. Good he didn't protect it fully, or even I wouldn't be able to change it any more.
I changed the explanations in the documentation page quite extensively. I removed most of the too technical introduction to the Overview. And I made two changes in the Usage section:
# If a template has a documentation page, there is no reason to use {{tl|Templaterefsection}}. A regular refsection can be used there.
# {{tl|Templaterefsection}} has to be added near the end of a template, otherwise it will be 1. hard to find 2. likely to ruin the external view of the template page. Especially this last argument the previous editor seems to have overseen.
[[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 20:39, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
== Archives ==
Where are the archives from older discussions? I didn't find all of them in the links at the top of the page. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 10:44, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
:[[Help talk:Cite errors/Archive 2009]] is linked, and is the only archive for this page. What don't you see? ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 11:03, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
:: I see, thanks. I pressed show and saw 2 bullets with WikiMedia archives. I didn't even notice the link to "2009", without the bullet. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 11:16, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
:::The years will normally fill across the line, separated by a middot. The other pages are from the message pages where there were discussions before we redirected all of the talk pages here. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 11:28, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
== The rest ==
Where is the rest of the 1561 pages in [[:Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]]? I see only 287 of them. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 18:54, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
:Good question. I'm scratching appendages on that one as well. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 14:57, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
== Categories ==
: When did [[:Category:Pages with broken reference names]] get created, and why didn't anyone [[User talk:AnomieBOT|tell me]] so I could have AnomieBOT check it? [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 22:23, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
That was just a renaming of an old category, as you can read [[User_talk:Gadget850#Three_questions|here]]. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 22:38, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
: No, it was splitting out some entries from [[:Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]]. And either way, the bot would need updating. Since when is [[User talk:Gadget850]] the place to watch for ref error categorization changes, anyway? ;) [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 00:04, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
:: Excuse me, you're right. But that still means there was [[:Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]], And don't tell me you didn't know about that one! Splitting wasa really good idea though, don't you think so?
:: Well, he's the only one making any serious changes to anything related to reference errors. That I can assure you. So we sometimes chat on his talkpage. But yo're right again, and I'll move the conversation here. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 00:11, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
:::Anomie is right. I did think of the bot at one point, but forgot. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 00:28, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
::: Of course, that's the category the bot has watched since I created it. Anyway, no real harm done, the bot is fixed now. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 00:39, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
:::: May I ask a small question please, Anomie? Just let me create some distance before I ask you. Oh, right, that's it. Then why were there over 200 pages there for the last week at least? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 00:43, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
::::: The bot can't fix all errors, some things require human attention. For example, if someone forgets their <code></ref></code> the bot can't figure out where to insert it because that requires actually understanding what the page is trying to say. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 01:29, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
::::::So splitting the pages helped you a lot. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 01:38, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
::::::: Not really, but it didn't hurt anything either once I found out about it. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 02:11, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
::::: You can see everything it has done in the past week (updated every 6 hours) at [[User:AnomieBOT/OrphanReferenceFixer log]]; note it didn't rescue anything between 2009-05-07 11:01:22 and 2009-05-09 18:21:19 because of the category split we discussed above. There's also {{bug|18601}} that is currently making some pages fail to be processed, which should be fixed once brion scaps. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 01:29, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
:::::: I had a look there before I wrote you. Still, those 224 pages were there a week at least. And that's only the "real" broken references. Nevertheless, I'm not the person to keep a grudge. If you can tell me that the bot has tried its best, but that there are a few pages left it can't fix, I'll have a look at them.[[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 01:38, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
::::::: There are some it just can't fix. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 02:11, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
:::::::: That's why I said: tell me when the bot has finished trying all articles in this category, and I'll do my best on the rest. I just hope it will not leave many. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 02:15, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
:::::: I'll give you a few examples. I once fixed a page with a ref that was copied from another page along with the table. Without any connection to the subject at all. Or when a ref is copied along with connected material from another article (but no mention of that in the edit summary, as usual). Or when the reference is found in a template that is transcluded unto the article (various scenarios here). I've fixed a few of those as well. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 01:42, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
== Rename category ==
We currently have three categories:
* [[:Category:Wikipedia pages with broken references]]; populated by [[MediaWiki:Cite error references no text]]
* [[:Category:Pages with broken reference names]]; populated by [[MediaWiki:Cite error references no text]]
* [[:Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]]; populated by all of the other errors
Propose to:
* Rename [[:Category:Wikipedia pages with broken references]] to [[:Category:Pages with missing references list]]
---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 17:19, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
: Agree. But it should be "references list", I think.[[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 18:35, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
::Done. Keeping the old category until it empties. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 20:45, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Could you make the talk page of [[:Category:Pages with broken reference names]] redirect here too? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 18:18, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
::Done ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 20:45, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
== Three questions ==
1. Do you have a nicer solution for [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2006_FIFA_World_Cup_squads&diff=288445517&oldid=287971315 this fix of mine]?
:See [[Wikipedia:Footnotes#Known bugs]] for a way to nest references. I would probably be better to use the group parameter to separate notes and references. I would be tempted to start from scratch.
:: I'll have a look. Thanks. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 15:02, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
2 What about my suggestion in the section [[#Categories|Categories]] above?
:I am still mulling this over. The current sort is a de facto standard. This fracking head cold and the arthritis are not helping.
:: You're right about that being the standard. And my allergy also doesn't help me an awfull lot. Still, there are reasons for deviating from the standard here. Bootom line, anyway you decide is fine with me; it's not a big deal. Just let me know when you make up you mind, so that I might check those articles. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 15:02, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
3 Currently [[:Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]] includes both errors because of missing <nowiki></ref></nowiki> tags as well as broken links (e.g. <nowiki><ref name=thereisnosuchrefinthisarticle /></nowiki>. Can you make two different pages of this?
: The first type is indeed a case of incorrect formatting, and I'd keep the name. This are easy to fix, and I'm willing to take it upon myself to fix all of them.
: The second type might better be renamed to [[:Category:Pages with broken references]]. Fixing these takes a lot of effort. I have put in some work already, and will put in some more in the near future, although fixing all of them is a gigantic task. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 10:30, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
::[[:Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]] is populated by the 12 error types that use {{tl|broken ref}}. I can add a cat parameter to override the default category.
::*The missing {{tag|ref|close}} triggers [[MediaWiki:Cite error included ref]]
::*The undefined ref name triggers [[MediaWiki:Cite error references no text]]
::So— I can put any of these errors into separate categories. If there are errors of multiple types, it will populate each category. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 14:45, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
::: If only I knew more about all those 12 different types (sigh). But yes, what I really would like you to do, is make a new (sub-?)category for the undefined ref name errors. They are very troublesome. Fixing most of the rest is easy, and I'll do my best as usual. Please let me know when there are updates here. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 15:02, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
::::[[MediaWiki:Cite error references no text]] now puts the pages in [[:Category:Pages with broken reference names]] which seems to be populating quickly. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 16:12, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
::::: Perhaps that's those missing pages showing up at last. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 18:07, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
OK. Look at [[MediaWiki:Cite error refs without references]]. Each namespace is now sorted differently: main by pagename, template by !, category by ", help by # and file by $. It will take a bit for [[:Category:Wikipedia pages with broken references]] to resort. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 00:15, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
: Fixed all articles in [[:Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]].
: What you did is nice, and now I know why that page was sitting stubbornly at "#", but could you please put all of them together at the "!"? We're not expecting many articles here, so let's keep the few we have together. Could be any other one symbol, but just one please will do. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 01:52, 8 May 2009 (UTC) I mean, apart from the main article namespace, of course. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 01:53, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
::'''All''' template, category, help and file pages will now sort under !. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 11:30, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
::: Great. Thanks. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 18:46, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
BTW, while you're at it, could you make the pages in [[:Category:Cite web templates using unusual accessdate parameters]] sort A-B-... too? I've been cleaning up there very seriously. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 02:05, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
:See [[Template talk:Cite web#Category:Cite web templates using unusual accessdate parameters]]. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 11:30, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
:: I had a look. Please see my note there (in addition to my general agreement). [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 18:46, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
BTW, today I had a template in [[:Category:Pages with broken reference names]] under "T". Didn't you program templates to be under "!" there also? Same in [[:Category:Wikipedia pages with broken references]] [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 00:22, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
:Depends upon when it got added to the category. I had to null edit one of the help pages---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 00:26, 10 May 2009 (UTC) to get it to update.
:: I see. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 00:32, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
You noticed those missing articles with broken reference names didn't show up in the end? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 18:46, 9 May 2009 (UTC) To be more precise, the category now claims there are only 224 pages there. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 00:32, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
And shouldn't [[Help:Cite errors/Testcases]] and [[Help:Cite errors/Testcases2]] show up under "!' on [[:Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]]? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 00:35, 10 May 2009 (UTC) And [[Help:Cite errors/Testcases]] on [[:Category:Pages with broken reference names]]? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 00:37, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
:That is more than three questions, so a surcharge applies. [[:Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]] is the everything else category and is populated by {{tl|broken ref}}. I will have to look at that to sort. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 02:13, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
I now saw you didn't yet add that "!" fix with template, file, help and cat=2 to [[:Template:Broken ref]]. Piece of cake, no? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 19:32, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
:Done ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 21:43, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
:: Thanks. What I don't understand is why it doesn't work. Not on
* [[:Category:Articles with broken citations]], nor
* [[:Category:Pages with broken reference names]], nor
* [[:Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]], nor
* [[:Category:Wikipedia pages with broken references]]
as you can see on those category pages. They are still sorting by pagename only. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 22:03, 13 May 2009 (UTC) If only I understood that small line of code there... [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 22:17, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
:::* [[:Category:Articles with broken citations]] has nothing to do with {{tl|broken ref}}— this is populated by various citation templates.
:::* The other templates will eventually resort; you can for it with a null edit.
:::---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 23:41, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Could you do the same for [[:Category:Articles with broken citations]] too? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 15:43, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
:Looks like this is from {{tl|citation}}: please make this request on the talk page. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 16:10, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
On [[:Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]] it works now. On [[:Category:Wikipedia pages with broken references]] and [[:Category:Pages with broken reference names]] it doesn't,not even after null-editing. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 15:43, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
:Fixed. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 16:10, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
::Remember that [[:Category:Wikipedia pages with broken references]] will no longer be populated as it has been replaced by [[:Category:Pages with missing references list]]. Articles in the first category will propagate to the second as they are edited, or they will disappear if they are fixed. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 17:33, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
In the right order:
# I have on the [[Template_talk:Citation#Sorting_of_category_articles|Citation talkpage]]
# Thanks, it works.
# I forgot that for a moment. Will you redirect the page after it is depopulated? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 17:51, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
:: For reasons I don't understand, three pages don't want to move from [[:Category:Wikipedia pages with broken references]]. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 18:15, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
== Prefered order ==
I have added the line "Below they are listed in order of preference". This order is based on various factors:
# absence of "cons", or their severity if present
# effectiveness
# ease and elegance of their implementation
If you would like to change the order, or think it should be removed completely, please discuss this first here. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 12:16, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
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