Wikipedia talk:Identifying and using tertiary sources: Difference between revisions
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:::I get what you are saying, but still disagree. One of the purposes of a tertiary source is to summarize material published in secondary sources. The best ones actually do cite their sources... but even if they don't, if the tertiary source is at all reputable, we can ''assume'' that the material it summarizes comes from reliable secondary sources (and thus ''has'' been published by a reliable secondary source. Which means it has passed the "only" wording of NOR)... Indeed, if we refer to an analysis or evaluative claim from an encyclopedia (or other tertiary source) we are ''required'' to cite that encyclopedia (or other tertiary source) for that analysis or evaluation... per [[WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT]].
:::No, tertiary sources do have their place... and while they may not always be the ''best'' source ''possible'' they are almost always at least marginally ''acceptable'' sources. And if a tertiary source contains an analysis or evaluation it's definitely ''not'' Original research to repeat that analysis or evaluation here on Wikipedia. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] ([[User talk:Blueboar|talk]]) 21:10, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
::::{{Ping|Blueboar}}On the first point, we're just talking past each other. I'll try again. Re: '{{tq|an analysis or evaluative claim from an encyclopedia (or other tertiary source)}}' and later '{{tq|if a tertiary source contains an analysis or evaluation...}}' – If an otherwise tertiary source does that at all, they are, for that claim, a secondary source, by definition. It's something that secondary sourcing does and tertiary does not. It seems to me that you are in one half of the argument trying to permanently categorize as tertiary any source that is usually tertiary, even when for a particular case it's secondary; yet in another half of the discussion you say '{{tq|a "tertiary" source '''can''' be cited for analysis and evaluation per NOR [...] 2) where it acts as a reliable secondary source itself}}, which I've also said myself. Thus, I'm honestly not seeing where the disagreement on this point can actually be real.
::::On the other point, the policy emphatically says {{em|twice}} that such analytic claims have to come from secondary sources (I didn't notice this the first time around). The second instance is at [[WP:PSTS]]: '{{tq|All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source}}, and this comes immediately after mention of tertiary sources: '{{tq|Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources.}}' So, there is no confusion between or commingling of secondary and tertiary sources in the policy. Tertiary are good enough for helping to establish notability, but only secondary are good enough (it said so two times) for "interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims". It's very rare for a WP policy to say the same thing twice, so clearly this is meant to be taken seriously. "''Assumed''" to be "published in" isn't the same as "referenced to" a secondary source, which is what WP:PSTS says more restrictively. But even if both lines used "published in" wording, I'm absolutely certain the interpretation that we can just assume such publication would not have been upheld, e.g. at an RfC. It's just poor wording in one spot, meanwhile it's very clear that everything in the policy is about citing sources not assuming they may exist somewhere. Your WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT point takes us right back to the previous paragraph: If a usually-tertiary source actually has any "interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims" that we're using, then it {{em|is}} a secondary source; we're not citing a tertiary source as if it were secondary, we're citing secondary source material directly, that just happens to be surrounded by tertiary material in the same publication. PS: By defining all reliable tertiary sources as those which summarize the analysis and evaluation of reliable secondary sources (you said we can "assume" this), your conditional, '{{tq|a "tertiary" source '''can''' be cited for analysis and evaluation per NOR [...] where it is summarizing the analysis and evaluation of reliable secondary sources}}', would automatically qualify {{em|every}} reliable tertiary source (i.e., the only tertiary sources acceptable on WP, since we don't allow unreliable sources). Thus, it would directly equate reliable tertiary and secondary sources, which the policy obviously does not do. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 01:59, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
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