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:::Is that what you were looking for? – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 20:21, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
== AWB volunteer to clean up [[:Category:CS1 maint: Unrecognized language]]? ==
Now that multiple languages are recognized in {{para|language}}, do we have an AWB-savvy volunteer who can fix up articles in [[:Category:CS1 maint: Unrecognized language]]?
There are many articles that have multiple valid languages that just need some cleanup, converting usages like "English & German" and "English / German" to comma-delimited format. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 23:36, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
:I think the code in the module already handles the examples you give above - many of the articles in that maintenance category don't show the green text maintenance tag, and a [[WP:NULLEDIT]] clears the article from populating the category. And in the case of usages with English as one of multiple languages, I've found that using a comma-delimited list actually puts it back into another maintenance category.
:Consider the following edits of [[3D pose estimation]] (reference #1 in each case) - an article originally with {{para|language|English / German}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3D_pose_estimation&oldid=646387633] doesn't show a green text tag. If you try to use comma, {{para|language|English, German}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3D_pose_estimation&diff=657253660&oldid=646387633] causes the reference to then receive a green maintenance tag and it goes into {{cl|CS1 maint: English language specified}}. Changing to {{para|language|English & German}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3D_pose_estimation&diff=657253718&oldid=657253660] clears the maintenance tag again. [[User:Stamptrader|Stamptrader]] ([[User talk:Stamptrader|talk]]) 00:17, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
::Interesting. I got the impression from the discussion above that only comma-separated values would be accepted. Two languages (or non-languages) separated by an ampersand or a slash seems to render without emitting an error message, however:
::{{cite compare|mode=book|old=no|title=Book title|language=foo & bar}}
::{{cite compare|mode=book|old=no|title=Book title|language=foo / bar}}
::Something is not quite right here.
::And an article in "Latvian and English" should not be placed in {{cl|CS1 maint: English language specified}}, in my opinion. A bilingual or mixed-language article should be able to be described as such, even if one of the languages is English. I don't feel strongly about it, though. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 03:58, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
:::The failure to categorize the two above examples is caused by a bug that I introduced when I moved static text out of [[Module:Citation/CS1]] into [[Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration]]. Fixed in the sandbox.
:::Without some opinion either way I left the English language detector code alone. I think it's relatively simple to limit English language categorization to the single language case.
:::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 11:12, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
{{od}}
Over the past few days I ran an AWB script that changed {{para|language}} parameters with multiple languages to the comma delimited form on about 1750 pages. I have come to believe that multiple language sources that include English as one of the languages should not add the category {{cl|CS1 maint: English language specified}}. I have tweaked the sandbox accordingly.
{{para|language}} used to categorize into the same categories as those used by {{tld|icon xx}} templates (Category:Articles with xx-language external links). The {{tld|icon xx}} templates only categorize from article space. As I think about it, this constraint ought not apply to CS1/2. We have a defined set of name spaces that we don't categorize, I see no real reason to treat {{para|language}} in a special manner. That being the case, I have adjusted the code so that the {{para|language}} uses the same categorization rules as every other parameter.
{{cite compare |old=no |mode=book |title=Title |language=en,fr}}
{{cite compare |old=no |mode=book |title=Title |language=en}}
—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 11:57, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
I'm going through this list and I'm not seeing the CS1 maintenance message on some of the pages. For example, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anton_incident&oldid=633804975 Anton incident] (last edited 2014) contains <code>|language=English (<nowiki>[http://yle.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/2009/05/stubb_puolustaa_antonin_isaa_ja_konsulaatin_tyontekijaa_740524.html Finnish]</nowiki>)</code> and is currently on the 1st page of [[:Category:CS1 maint: Unrecognized language]], yet I fail to see an unknown language error anywhere on the page. [[User:Tom.Reding/common.css|My common.css]] has the appropriate line of code to see maintenance messages, and I've null-edited the page. Is this a bug, a feature, or my fault? <b>~</b> <font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:17px;">[[User:Tom.Reding|Tom.Reding]] ([[User talk:Tom.Reding|talk]] ⋅[[Special:Contributions/Tom.Reding|contribs]] ⋅[[WP:Don%27t-give-a-fuckism|dgaf]])</font> 21:17, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
:The bug that I introduced fails to categorize unrecognized languages. That whole long string is considered to be one language name because there isn't a comma separator.
::<code><nowiki>{{Cite web/new | title = Stubb Defends Father and Consulate in Custody Battle | url = http://www.yle.fi/uutiset/news/2009/05/stubb_defends_father_and_consulate_in_custody_battle_740836.html | publisher = [[YLE]] | date = 15 May 2008 | accessdate = 2009-05-16 | language = English ([http://yle.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/2009/05/stubb_puolustaa_antonin_isaa_ja_konsulaatin_tyontekijaa_740524.html Finnish])}}</nowiki></code>
::→{{Cite web/new | title = Stubb Defends Father and Consulate in Custody Battle | url = http://www.yle.fi/uutiset/news/2009/05/stubb_defends_father_and_consulate_in_custody_battle_740836.html | publisher = [[YLE]] | date = 15 May 2008 | accessdate = 2009-05-16 | language = English ([http://yle.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/2009/05/stubb_puolustaa_antonin_isaa_ja_konsulaatin_tyontekijaa_740524.html Finnish])}}
:The bug is fixed in the sandbox.
:—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 21:29, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
A discussion at [[Module_talk:Citation/CS1#Language_parameter]] has me wondering if we should adopt something similar to what is done at fr:WP. There, when {{para|language|français}} or {{para|language|fr}}, they simply don't display the language annotation. We could do the same thing here when {{para|language|English}} or {{para|language|en}}.
Should we?
—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 15:07, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
If we do this, it has been proposed at [[Module_talk:Citation/CS1#Language_parameter]] that the practice of deleting {{para|language|en}} and {{para|language|English}} be stopped. If we are to hide English language annotation and leave {{para|language}} in the templates then use of {{cl|CS1 maint: English language specified}} should be discontinued and instead, we should create a new subcategory of {{cl|CS1 properties}} that is not a subcategory of {{cl|CS1 foreign language sources}}. Perhaps {{cl|CS1 English language sources}}. I don't know to what purpose we could put such a category because use of {{para|language|English}} will not be universal and it would be inappropriate for the module to assume that a source is English unless specified otherwise.
Without someone speaks up and tells me unequivocally not to, I think that I shall proceed.
—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 17:21, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
:Why is a category necessary? It should be a simple matter to test for either {{para|language|en}} or {{para|language|English}}, and do nothing - no output, no category. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 22:33, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
::Because it's there if someone thinks of a use for such incomplete information? Of course if that happens, it is easy enough to add the category later.
::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 23:08, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
Ok, English is not displayed when used alone but is displayed when listed with other languages. The middle example to show that I didn't break single language rendering. No categories.
{{cite compare |old=no |mode=book |title=Title |language=fr, en}}
{{cite compare |old=no |mode=book |title=Title |language=fr}}
{{cite compare |old=no |mode=book |title=Title |language=en}}
—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 00:10, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
:That last bit seems reasonable. If there's an odd case where you really need people to know it's in English (e.g. because there are two different-language editions with precisely the same, untranslated title), you can do {{para|Eng<nowiki />lish}}, right? <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 12:19, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
== Problems with "cite episode" template? ==
I've been editing on Wikipedia for a while, but I'm new to attempting to clean-up CS1 errors that appear. Lately, dozens of "cite episode" templates appear to be generating a CS1 error because the editor included a "writers" parameter. Is this a parameter that used to appear in the template? Has it been eliminated? And can someone suggest an alternate method for including the information (which is critical in television and radio episodes), especially when other parameters are being used for the episode's director(s).[[User:JimVC3|JimVC3]] ([[User talk:JimVC3|talk]]) 20:11, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
:I had this same question, so I looked in the history of the documentation for {{tl|cite episode}}.
:It looks like the {{para|writers}} parameter was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Cite_episode&diff=next&oldid=42613631 added to the template on 7 March 2006] and then [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Cite_episode&diff=next&oldid=51623195 marked as deprecated on 12 June 2006]. It was officially deprecated but displayed in the template from that point until 25 May 2009, when it began to be silently ignored (and not displayed) with [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Cite_episode&diff=next&oldid=271521634 this major change to the template code]. I found no discussion in the {{tl|cite episode}} talk page archives about this {{para|writers}} parameter.
:On 18 April 2015, with the change of the template to use the CS1 Lua module, the parameter's presence started to generate an error message, as do all unsupported (and deprecated) parameters.
:The previous documentation recommended using {{para|credits}} for all credited people associated with the episode, so I would write something like {{para|credits|Joe Smith (producer); Ellen Brown (director); Jane Doe (writer)}}. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 20:44, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
::I suspected this is what happened. Thanks so much for your research and verifying the situation. Eliminating the parameter probably deserved more discussion. Anyway, your work-around looks like a very good alternative. Thanks again. [[User:JimVC3|JimVC3]] ([[User talk:JimVC3|talk]]) 17:32, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
:::Far better to have separate parameters for each role, for improved [[data granularity]]. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 11:59, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
::::Yep. Also, it wasn't a process failure to remove an undiscussed parameter 3 months after someone slapped it in, back in 2006. And 9 years is plenty of time for someone to have objected (and for the deprecated parameter to have been cleaned up after). Sometimes the only way thing get fixed is when they start throwing errors. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 12:15, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
== Cite episode - bogus error ==
The instance of {{tl|Cite episode}} in [[Lisa Lynch]] is giving a "missing title" error, even though the title parameter has content. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 11:56, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
:Not bogus, but yeah, confusing. As {{tlx|cite journal}} uses {{para|title}} to name an article, so {{tlx|cite episode}} uses {{para|title}} to name an episode. What is missing from that citation is {{para|series}}.
::{{Cite episode |title= The C Word |series=<series name goes here>|url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05tr05b |accessdate= 3 May 2015 |network= BBC |date= 3 May 2015 |transcript= |transcripturl= }}
:—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 12:27, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
:::Confusing indeed. I modified the help documentation a couple of weeks ago after figuring out this quirk. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 14:32, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
::::Should have used {{tl|Cite serial}} [[User:AManWithNoPlan|AManWithNoPlan]] ([[User talk:AManWithNoPlan|talk]]) 14:35, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
:::::Why, given that, it's not a serial? And why have you removed the date of first transmission from that reference? <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 14:54, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
::Saying there is no title, when there is a title, is bogus. The error should presumably say "Missing series name". However, there is no series name, as the programme was a one-off. I note that its documentation says "This Citation Style 1 template is used to create citations for television or radio programs and episodes." Why is the parameter required? <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 15:05, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
{{Ping|Trappist the monk|AManWithNoPlan}}. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 19:31, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
:If it's a one-off, then the title should be in {{para|work}}, since it's a single work, not an episode ({{para|title}}) is a series. I agree the error message needs fixing, as it's misleading. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 12:12, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
==Citing newspaper insert==
I think I've asked this one previously, but I cannot find the old discussion. I would like to cite a weekly insert (i.e. ''Time Out'') that appears in a newspaper (i.e. ''[[The Ledger]]''). Which parameter should I use for the insert? Unlike ''[[Parade (magazine)|Parade]]'', the insert is published by and only for the main newspaper it appears in. Thanks! - [[User:Location|Location]] ([[User talk:Location|talk]]) 16:37, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
:I think you want {{para|department}}. [[Template:Cite_news#Periodical|Documentation here]]. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 20:04, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
::That's what I would use, too. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 12:05, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
== Link to ISBN ==
I noticed an inconsistency in display when ISBN is given via {{para|isbn}} and when given in plain text. For example:
* {{cite book|last=A Whited|first=Lana|title=The Ivory Tower and Harry Potter| publisher=University of Missouri Press|year=2004|isbn=978-0-8262-1549-9}}
* A Whited, Lana (2004). ''The Ivory Tower and Harry Potter''. University of Missouri Press. ISBN 978-0-8262-1549-9
The first one (use of {{para|isbn}}) contains an extra link to [[ISBN]]. The second one is given in plain text. I think this link is unnecessary. Moreover, it's overlinking. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 06:50, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
:All of the identifier parameters, [[PubMed Central|PMC]], [[Digital object identifier|doi]], [[Zentralblatt MATH|zbl]], [[International Standard Serial Number|issn]] are linked to their Wikipedia articles. Why should ISBN render differently?
:—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 10:29, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
: ISBN 978-0-8262-1549-9 in plaintext is just autoformatted by the wiki (one of those legacys; RFC 1918 is another that is similar) to provide the link in question, whereas we override that functionality by deliberately inserting a link in the template, per Trappist. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 15:58, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] I mean we could just unlink all of PMC, doi, zbl, issn as common links and instead of having a wikilink followed by an (almost) external link just inherit the behaviour of ISBN 978-0-8262-1549-9 (plaintext, autoformatted by mediawki). I am just saying my opinion and underlying an inconsistency for viewers. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] ([[User talk:Magioladitis|talk]]) 11:01, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
:I tend to agree it's overlinking. If it only did it with the first citation on the page that used it, maybe not, but it seems like "[[ISBN]]" (or whatever) may appear linked 100 times in the same long article. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 12:07, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
: I don't believe it is overlinking. The internal link serves a useful purpose (it answers the question of what the heck is a doi, isbn, pmid, etc.). [[User:Boghog|Boghog]] ([[User talk:Boghog|talk]]) 16:27, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
:I disagree that having a link to ISBN or the others in overlinking. I'm guessing there are plenty of people who have no idea what "zb", PMC", etc. mean. Even if you believe it to be in contradiction with [[WP:OVERLINK]], it is irrelevant in that having such links ''does'' aid readers, and there always comes a time when guidelines are not actually helpful. If a guideline causes problems, it can be overlooked in certain specific situations. [[User:Dustin V. S.|<span style="color:green; font-family:Times New Roman">''Dustin''</span>]] [[User talk:Dustin V. S.|(<span style="color:green; font-family:Times New Roman">talk</span>)]] 16:38, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
:Linking to the article "ISBN" breaks the consistency of formatting of ISBN links between different methods of displaying and ISBN, and should never have been introduced. The ISBN special page provides sufficient information, directly or indirectly, about what an ISBN is. Readers reasonably expect that clicking on any part of ISBN 978-0-471-21495-3 to talk them to the special page. If we want to change the behaviour we should propose a change to the MediaWiki software. Otherwise we should maintain consistency. All the best: ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]] [[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'',<small> 19:19, 20 June 2015 (UTC).</small><br />
== Journal article titles ==
I've always assumed that the titles of both journal articles and book chapters should be in 'sentence case' (rather than in 'title case') but I cannot find any guidance on the wiki MOS pages. Have I missed it? If there is a recommended style, perhaps it would be useful to include guidelines in the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Cite_journal#Title cite journal documentation]. [[User:Aa77zz|Aa77zz]] ([[User talk:Aa77zz|talk]]) 12:06, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
:Title case, I think. See: [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Titles of works]].
:—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 12:12, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
::I disagree with the concept that CS1 follows the MOS. Only certain specific guidance has been adopted; the only guidance I know of adopted from MOS was date format, and that was a problem, because MOSNUM date guidance was being changed faster than the templates could be edited to keep up. As far as I know, there is no guidance whether to use sentence case or title case for journal article titles in citations. [[User:Jc3s5h|Jc3s5h]] ([[User talk:Jc3s5h|talk]]) 12:50, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
:::Absent any declaration of specific style to the contrary, it is appropriate to fall back on [[MOS:]] for style guidance. Style for titles is not defined for cs1|2 templates because there is no provision to detect deviation from a defined style and so enforce adherence to that style. As an aside, I have been wondering of late, about detecting and categorizing templates that have titles and other information in all capital letters.
:::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 14:09, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
::::I disagree with the whole concept that only style matters that can be checked by programming language in a template are defined for CS1. If CS1 is a citation style in its own right, then style matters can be prescribed in the documentation even though they are not enforceable with software. Likewise, style prescriptions can be made in the documentation that, for the time being, are incorrectly implemented in the software (February 29, 1700, Julian calendar). In such cases it is the software that is faulty, not the editor who filled out the template. [[User:Jc3s5h|Jc3s5h]] ([[User talk:Jc3s5h|talk]]) 19:08, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
:::::Of course, but cs1|2, if it is a style, does not have documentation that defines that style. You will recall that I have previously asked both you and the community if we aught not create a style guide for cs1|2. Those suggestions have been met with ambivalence. So that leaves the cs1|2 'style definition' in the code or, as in the case for dates, a [[Help:Citation Style 1#Dates|mention]] that dates for the most part comply with [[WP:DATESNO]]. Template documentation describes what the tempate parameters mean and how the contents are rendered, but that is not a style guide.
:::::At present, cs1|2 has no defined title style except that, de facto, it accords with [[MOS:TITLE]]: chapter titles and article titles are quoted; book, journal, encyclopedia titles are italicized. cs1|2 does, to an extent, check certain components of style: dates, of course, but also [[Vancouver system]] author and editor names (when {{para|name-list-format|vanc}} and in future with {{para|vauthors}}).
:::::The documentation for cs1|2 dates says "Module:Citation/CS1 cannot know if a date is Julian or Gregorian; assumes Gregorian" which is both correct and incorrect. In fact, dates before 1582 are Julian and dates from 1582 are Gregorian and the module knows this:
::::::<code><nowiki>{{cite book |title=Title |date=29 February 1500}}</nowiki></code>
:::::::→{{cite book |title=Title |date=29 February 1500}}
:::::I'll tweak that documentation.
:::::I did a quick search for Julian leap day dates in years 1700, 1800, and 1900 using these insource: search strings:
::::::<code><nowiki>insource:/February *29 *, *1[7-9]00/</nowiki></code> – 3 results, none of which were dates in references (all about Microsoft Excel)
::::::<code><nowiki>insource:/29 *February *1[7-9]00/</nowiki></code> – 3 results, [[Cordelia Botkin#References|one]] is a free-form reference where the date 29 February 1900 is mentioned
::::::<code><nowiki>insource:/1[7-9]00-02-29/</nowiki></code> – this search produced nothing
:::::It would seem then that there is not much call for cs1|2 to support Julian leap days in the overlap period of 1582 – c. 1923. To do so would require some sort of mechanism to specifically identify those three dates as Julian dates; which can be done if there is ever a need.
:::::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 22:22, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
:I usually tend to sentence case for journal entry/article titles since these seem to have uncommon capitalization (Or Use Capital Letters For Obvious Emphasis, something which is on the Do Not Do list at [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Do not use for emphasis]]; [[WP:BADEMPHASIS]] is also relevant).<p>Regardless, I would recommend asking this question at [[WT:MOS]] with a note to that discussion from [[WT:Citing sources]] or similar (or vice versa as desired), since I don't think this is a question particularly specific to CS1. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 14:58, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
::Many thanks for your help. I've taken [[User:Izno|Izno]]'s advice and asked the question at [[WT:MOS]]. [[User:Aa77zz|Aa77zz]] ([[User talk:Aa77zz|talk]]) 17:13, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
::: I think everyone is missing the point here. MOS applies to text, not citations. MOS is irrelevant to this discussion. Journal article titles and journal names typically use title case, not sentence case. We should follow the case that is used in the original sources, not the MOS. [[User:Boghog|Boghog]] ([[User talk:Boghog|talk]]) 19:19, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
::::In my experience, ''citations'' to journal article titles generally use sentence case, regardless of how the journal formatted the title. This is also how the titles are represented in some databases, for example [[MathSciNet]]. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 19:53, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
::::I agee that MOS applies to text, not citations. [[WP:CITE]] applies; it allows the style to be determined on an article-by-article basis, but "citations within any given article should follow a consistent style." This consistency requirement agrees with every printed style guide and every university instructor I have ever encountered. So it would be wrong to change from sentence case to title case from one entry to the next, depending on how the title was printed in the source. [[User:Jc3s5h|Jc3s5h]] ([[User talk:Jc3s5h|talk]]) 19:56, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
::::: [http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2012/03/title-case-and-sentence-case-capitalization-in-apa-style.html APA] says use sentence case.I think that is stupid, but that is what they say. [[User:AManWithNoPlan|AManWithNoPlan]] ([[User talk:AManWithNoPlan|talk]]) 20:03, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
*As {{u|Aa77zz}} noted above at 17:13, 18 May 2015, a new thread was started at [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Formatting titles of journal articles and book chapters in references]] and is continuing there. Beginning at 19:08, 19 May 2015 we have had ''six'' further comments here, so we now have a split discussion, which goes against [[WP:MULTI]]. Please could {{u|Jc3s5h}}, {{u|Trappist the monk}}, {{u|Boghog}}, {{u|David Eppstein}} and {{u|AManWithNoPlan}} consider moving their later comments to the MOS thread? --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 08:01, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
*This whole "ignore MOS for citations because ... no real reason" stuff is causing more problems than it solves. As far as I can tell the only "problem" it "solves" at all is "I like to do citations my way, so to Hell with the MOS." This seems to be worse than useless. It's leading to some really wretched stuff, like more and more articles littered with citations like: {{cite journal |title=CHRONOLOGICAL VARIABILITY IN CERAMIC PASTE: A COMPARISON OF DEPTFORD AND SAVANNAH PERIOD POTTERY IN THE ST. MARYS RIVER REGION OF NORTHEAST FLORIDA AND SOUTHEAST GEORGIA |first=Ann S. |last=Cordell |work=Southeastern Archaeology |volume=12 |issue=1 |date=1993 |pages=33–58}}. And worse - I at least used {{tlx|cite journal}} for that, when many do not, and thus do all kinds of other crap like leave the title unitalicized. I'm also seeing an increasing amount of "{{sm|Chronological Variability ...}}" which is not much better than ALLCAPS. Something detrimental has happened, presumably on one of my wikibreaks, so I didn't notice it until after the fact. [[WP:CITEVAR]] went from a reasonable "don't change an existing, acceptable citation style in an article" idea, to being aggressively interpreted as meaning "every citation style you can imagine is acceptable, so no matter how awful it is for readers, it will be set in stone forever by whoever makes the first major edit". This really needs to be undone. I have no problem at all with people pasting in citations in weird formats – at least they're working on citing sources for content at all. But the backward notion that no one is ever permitted to clean them up any more is unacceptable.</p><p>To move back toward the earlier gist of the thread: There's no defensible rationale for WP's own internal styles, e.g. CS1/2, to diverge from MOS, our own internal style guide, on anything. It's like supposing that some random class of citizens, e.g., dog catchers or plumbers, are exempt from their country's laws other than the ones they write themselves. I fully agree with Jc3s5h's point, "style matters can be prescribed in the documentation even though they are not enforceable with software". I simply add that there's no reason to deviate from MOS when it already prescribes a relevant style. NB: This also means WP doesn't care if APA says to use sentence case for titles. It's weird enough that WP does this for its own titles, for a technical reason that should have been fixed a long time ago, but we don't do that for titles in the encyclopedia content. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 10:54, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
** Update: See [[#Simple way to resolve MOS and citation discrepancies]], below, for totally painless solution (other than to whether we should permit externally-derived cite styles that do smallcaps and such; I'm just giving up on that for now). <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 02:22, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
== Foreign author name ==
If the author's name uses a non-Latin script, should it be romanized? Where should the original form and romanization go? --[[User:Djadjko|Djadjko]] ([[User talk:Djadjko|talk]]) 01:33, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
: It would be preferable to use the Latin-alphabet spellings plus the other language in parentheses brackets, perhaps as in "author=Plato (Greek: Πλάτων Plátōn)" but ideally, we wanted translation parameters to hold the translated author name, similar to trans_title for the title parameter.<br>{{ns|6}}• Example: {cite book |title=Demos |trans_title=People |author=Plato (Greek: Πλάτων Plátōn) |year=370 BCE}}<br>{{ns|6}}• Result: {{cite book |title=Demos |trans_title=People |author=Plato (Greek: Πλάτων Plátōn) |year=370 BCE}}<br>The idea is to focus on the English-speaking readership. -[[User:Wikid77|Wikid77]] ([[User talk:Wikid77|talk]]) 15:52, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
:: I've manage to do it the following way for Russian:<br />{{Cite book|ref={{sfnref|Ivanov|2010}}|title=Книжка|trans-title=Book|language=ru|authors=И. И. Иванов [I. I. Ivanov]|date=2010|publisher=Издательство|place=Moscow|isbn=000}}<br />(<nowiki>{{Cite book|ref={{sfnref|Ivanov|2010}}|title=Книжка|trans-title=Book|language=ru|authors=И. И. Иванов [I. I. Ivanov]|date=2010|publisher=Издательство|place=Moscow|isbn=000}}</nowiki>). --[[User:Djadjko|Djadjko]] ([[User talk:Djadjko|talk]]) 01:35, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
:::Citation Style 1 is based on APA style with a dose of ''The Chicago Manual of Style'' thrown in along with our own innovations. So looking at the APA style for advice, [http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2010/08/apples-to-תפחים.html they say to transliterate the names in the source] to produce the final citation. CMOS says that for sources with titles in non-Latin alphabets to use the transliterated names/titles first and optionally follow them with the non-Latin versions second.
:::Wikid77's example, using our existing template parameters would be:
:::*{{cite book |title=Demos |trans_title=People |author=Plato |year=370 BCE}}
:::Note, there's really no reason to give the Greek translation of an author so well known in English.
:::For Djadjko's example:
:::*{{Cite book |ref= harv |script-title=ru:Книжка|title= Kniga |trans-title= Book |language= ru |first= I. I. |last= Ivanov |date= 2010 |publisher= Izdatelystvo |place=Moscow|isbn=000}}
:::{{para|script-title|ru:Книжка}} will add the non-transliterated title, and where necessary, it handles right-to-left coding (Hebrew, Arabic, etc). <span style="background:#006B54; padding:2px;">'''[[User:Imzadi1979|<font color="white">Imzadi 1979</font>]] [[User talk:Imzadi1979|<font color="white"><big>→</big></font>]]'''</span> 03:10, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
== |script-chapter= ? ==
We have |script-title=, but not |script-chapter=. Can we get it? [[User:Curly Turkey|Curly Turkey]] [[User talk:Curly Turkey|''¡gobble!'']] 02:35, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
* Makes sense to me. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 01:48, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
== Parameter order for cite conference ==
Hi. I'm using [[:Template: Cite conference]] in the [[Gateway Protection Programme]] article. The template documentation states "If authors: Authors are first, followed by the included work, then "In" and the editors, then the main work", but the order it's displaying in is author name, editor name, title, main work (see footnote 17, for instance). Any ideas what I'm doing wrong? [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] ([[User talk:Cordless Larry|talk]]) 14:42, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
:Here's that reference, so you don't have to look for it in the article:
*{{cite conference|first=Joanne|last=van Selm|title=Lessons on resettlement from the US and Canada|conference=Listening to the evidence: The future of UK resettlement, Victoria Park Plaza|___location=London|page=35|url=http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20130128103514/http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/resettlement.pdf|date=6 February 2003|accessdate=16 October 2009|editor-first1=Verity|editor-last1=Gelsthorpe|editor-first2=Lauren|editor-last2=Herlitz|publisher=Home Office|isbn=1-84473-122-7}}
:[[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] ([[User talk:Cordless Larry|talk]]) 16:27, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
::Ah, it's because I didn't use the "book-title" parameter. Any ideas what I should do when the book title is the same as the conference title? [[User:Cordless Larry|Cordless Larry]] ([[User talk:Cordless Larry|talk]]) 16:32, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
== Date error ==
I was surprised to get a date error when I copy and pasted a Date from a New York Times article
*{{cite news|last=Revkin|first=Andrew|title=Skeptic Talking Point Melts Away as an Inconvenient Physicist Confirms Warming|date=OCTOBER 20, 2011 |url=http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/20/skeptic-talking-point-melts-away-as-an-inconvenient-physicist-confirms-warming/?_r=0|newspaper=New York Times|accessdate=1 Jun 2015}}
I believe the problem is that it doesn't like all caps for the month. Given the ubiquity of the New York Times (surely one of the most cited sources) I am surprised this issue hasn't arisen before, in fact, so surprised, I wonder if I am missing something.--[[User:Sphilbrick|<span style="color:#002868;padding:0 4px;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">S Philbrick</span>]][[User talk:Sphilbrick|<span style=";padding:0 4px;color:# 000;font-family: Copperplate Gothic Light">(Talk)</span>]] 16:49, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
:The issue is not with the templates but with the Wikipedia manual of style. All-caps is not one of the date styles listed as acceptable in [[MOS:DATEFORMAT]]. The citation templates check for that, and prevent you from using dates that are not in compliance with the MOS. The solution is to properly capitalize the date. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 17:33, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
::The help link in the date error leads directly to a list of common errors, including "improper capitalization".
::If you are patient, BattyBot's task 25 will fix this kind of error (along with dozens of other bot-fixable formats) during its periodic sweep of the date error category (roughly once a month). – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 01:48, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
== Feature request: condense archive-date and access-date when they are identical ==
Where any citation has been both retrieved and archived on the same day {{resize|(i.e. ''accessdate'' {{=}} ''archivedate'')}}, the footnote in the References section and the pop-up footnote display should be customized for that circumstance. Rather than the cumbersome:
… [https://Example.com Archived] from the original on June 2, 2015. Retrieved June 2, 2015.
a more succinct version should automatically be used; perhaps:
… Retrieved and [https://Example.com archived] on June 2, 2015.
which would become something like:
… Retrieved and archived from [https://Example.com the original] on June 2, 2015.
once <code>|deadurl=yes</code> was true.
This would make the References section, on pages where all the external articles are archived and properly defined in the ‘Cite’ templates, much cleaner looking and easier for users to read.
<!-- End request -->
— <span class="vcard"><span class="fn nickname">[[User:Who R you?|<span class="nowrap">Who R you?</span>]]</span> <small>[[User talk:Who R you?|Talk]]</small></span> 17:06, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
:{{U|Who R you?}}, I have retitled this section and removed the protected edit request template, because you have not specifically provided code changes for the code that generates {{tl|cite web}} and other templates. This means that a specification would have to be developed here first.
:Thank you for starting this conversation about a feature request. Some thoughts:
:* Interesting idea. It doesn't seem like it would be that hard to implement, though I am not a programmer.
:* Right now, we have "Archived" before "Retrieved". You have "Retrieved" before "Archived". Is that change intentional? If so, is there a reason for it? – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 02:25, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
:::Putting "Retrieved" before "Archived" would actually be useful for references using {{tl|cite archives}} after a cite template, so that all the archives are grouped together at the end of the reference - <u>'''[[User:Evad37|Evad]]''37'''''</u> <span style="font-size:95%;">[[[d:w:User talk:Evad37|talk]]]</span> 02:34, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
::::Works for me. I like it when our templates do smart things. I'm working on something very similar to this (for a non-citation context). If there are more than two things to test for and possibly combine, the complexity becomes multiplicatively, not additively, greater for each test you add, due to wikitemplate and parser function language being so crude. It would be much more efficient in Lua, but I'm building it for infoboxes that aren't in Lua (yet?) If I'm pinged, I'll point you to the code when I'm done with it; should be easy to adapt if you have a use for it (though I think these cite templates are also in Lua, so it won't help with this particular feature request). <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 10:20, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
::{{reply-to|Jonesey95}} Thanks for the rename. The sequence change was simply focusing on improving user experience; presumably the average reader is primarily concerned with how current the link is (or isn't); the wikipedian is typically more concerned with [[link rot]], so it seems appropriate that archive information be provided second.
::In contemplation on your second question, I came up with an alternative: Instead of using "Archived" text at all, should archiving just be reduced to an icon in the citation line (incorporated into the {{LinkTemplate|cite web}} template), such that:
:::{{cite web |url=https://www.cbc.ca/news |title=CBC reports… |publisher=[[CBC News]] |accessdate=2015-06-16 |archiveurl=http://web.archive.org/ |archivedate=2015-06-16 |deadurl=no}} {{resize|{{color|#AAA|“{{!}}deadurl{{=}}no”}}}}
::and
:::{{cite web |url=https://www.cbc.ca/news |title=CBC reports… |publisher=[[CBC News]] |accessdate=2015-06-16 |archiveurl=http://web.archive.org/ |archivedate=2015-06-16 |deadurl=yes}} {{resize|{{color|#AAA|“{{!}}deadurl{{=}}yes”}}}}
::become
:::{{cite web |url=https://www.cbc.ca/news |title=CBC reports… |publisher=[[CBC News]] |accessdate=2015-06-16}}{{Sourcearchived |archiveurl=http://web.archive.org/ |archivedate=2015-06-16 |url=https://www.cbc.ca/news |deadurl=no}} {{resize|{{color|#AAA|“{{!}}deadurl{{=}}no”}}}}
:::{{cite web |url=https://www.cbc.ca/news |title=CBC reports… |publisher=[[CBC News]] |accessdate=2015-06-16}}{{Sourcearchived |archiveurl=http://web.archive.org/ |archivedate=2015-06-16 |url=https://www.cbc.ca/news |deadurl=yes}} {{resize|{{color|#AAA|“{{!}}deadurl{{=}}yes”}}}}
::Only problem is that this version really needs more advanced programming to use a pop-up window (like footnotes within articles) to list links to multiple archives; otherwise it wouldn't look proper if something like “{{Sourcearchived}}{{Sourcearchived}}{{Sourcearchived}}{{Sourcearchived}}{{Sourcearchived}}{{Sourcearchived}}{{Sourcearchived}}{{Sourcearchived}}{{Sourcearchived}}” appeared at the end of a reference where many pages were individually archived.
::Thoughts?
::Cheers — <span class="vcard"><span class="fn nickname">[[User:Who R you?|<span class="nowrap">Who R you?</span>]]</span> <small>[[User talk:Who R you?|Talk]]</small></span> 02:42, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
== Quote translation ==
How should we use <code>quote</code> when it is displayed in a foreign language? Copy text in foreign language or translate it? [[User:SLBedit|SLBedit]] ([[User talk:SLBedit|talk]]) 13:02, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
:I would provide the foreign text with a translation in [brackets] following it if you want. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 14:47, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
::That's what I did days ago. :) [[User:SLBedit|SLBedit]] ([[User talk:SLBedit|talk]]) 15:38, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
:::Because the template inserts its own opening and closing quotation marks around the value provided in the parameter, the best approach is:<br />
::: {{para|quote|<nowiki>''{{lang|es|Mi casa es su casa.}}''</nowiki>" English: "My house is your house.}}
:::(or whatever in place of "English:", like "Tr.:" or "Approximate translation:", yadda yadda. This is used to good effect at, e.g., [[Van cat]], with some Armenia quotations. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 10:11, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
::::PS: It's a pretty ugly kluge though, and we should probably have a real parameter for this. It's going to come up more and more as we (oh so) slowly narrow the [[WP:BIAS]] chasm. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 02:19, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
==Citing a section of a newspaper==
I would like to use [http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1960/09/17/page/25/article/romes-trade-center-how-it-came-to-be this article] from the ''Chicago Tribune''. This far I have this...
:<nowiki>{{cite news |last=Clark |first=William |date=September 17, 1960 |title=Rome's Trade Center—How It Came to Be |url=http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1960/09/17/page/25/article/romes-trade-center-how-it-came-to-be |newspaper=Chicago Tribune |volume=CXIX |issue=224 |page=5 |___location=Chicago |access-date=June 9, 2015}}</nowiki>
...which gives this...<br>
:{{cite news |last=Clark |first=William |date=September 17, 1960 |title=Rome's Trade Center—How It Came to Be |url=http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1960/09/17/page/25/article/romes-trade-center-how-it-came-to-be |newspaper=Chicago Tribune |volume=CXIX |issue=224 |page=5 |___location=Chicago |access-date=June 9, 2015}}
Unfortunately for me, there is a "page 5" for each of the five sections of the paper. I would like to cite page 5 in "Part 2" or "Sports/Finance", also abbreviated "SPTS—BUS" at the top of each page. I was going to use {{para|at}} to note the section, however, [[Template:Cite news]] states that I cannot use {{para|at}} AND {{para|page}} together. Ideas? Thanks! - [[User:Location|Location]] ([[User talk:Location|talk]]) 04:17, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
:What's wrong with {{para|department|Sports/Finance}} {{para|page|5}}? If you don't like that, you could use {{para|at|part 2, p. 5}} or {{para|at|Sports/Finance, p. 5}}. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 11:35, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
::I've used the latter of Redrose64's two suggestions a number of times. As another suggestion, you can drop the volume and issue number; the date is the key item for finding an issue of a newspaper on microfilm or in bound volumes. Also, the ___location of "Chicago" is superfluous when the city name is contained within the newspaper name.
:::{{cite news |last=Clark |first=William |date=September 17, 1960 |title=Rome's Trade Center—How It Came to Be |url=http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1960/09/17/page/25/article/romes-trade-center-how-it-came-to-be |newspaper=Chicago Tribune |at= part 2, p. 5 |access-date=June 9, 2015}}
::should be sufficient to cite the article. <span style="background:#006B54; padding:2px;">'''[[User:Imzadi1979|<font color="white">Imzadi 1979</font>]] [[User talk:Imzadi1979|<font color="white"><big>→</big></font>]]'''</span> 12:11, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
::::I feel silly for not even trying to put the section and page in the same parameter. Thanks again! - [[User:Location|Location]] ([[User talk:Location|talk]]) 13:28, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
:::Agreed either of those are acceptable solutions. So is {{para|page|5 (Sports/Finance)}}. I'd keep the volume and issue. More information is better than less (as long as it's not {{em|directly}} redundant, as with "Chicago" in that case) and consistent formatting is a virtue. Omission of vol. & issue for one kind of periodical inspires omission of it for all. We can't depend on editors already having memorized citation "etiquette" and necessarily knowing it should always be included for academic journals. I think it should also always be included for magazines not likely to be found in digitized or microfiche form. Frequently, if I want to verify something from an old magazine, I have to find it on eBay, and I can't depend on sellers to use both dates and vol./no. in their listings. Taken to an extreme, the "don't include parameters not absolutely required to identify the source" would mean citing nothing but an ISBN, ISSN or OCLC number. >;-) <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 09:43, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
== Cite report – type ==
I am attempting to cite a report which contains the word "report" in its title. Is there any way of removing the word "(Report)" from {{tl|cite report}}? Using the type parameter, I seem to be able to replace the word but not to remove it. [[User:Graham11|Graham]] ([[User talk:Graham11|talk]]) 22:20, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
:{{#invoke:DemoTemplate |cite report |title=Title of Big Report}}
:{{#invoke:DemoTemplate |cite report |title=Title of Big Report |type=none}}
:—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 23:36, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
== Proposed |Vol & |Vol. aliases for |volume, etc. ==
It would greatly speed up formatting of copy-pasted citation details, and reduce error rates, if {{para|volume}} had two added aliases, {{para|Vol}} and {{para|Vol.}}, while {{para|issue}} had corresponding {{para|No}} and {{para|No.}} aliases. A bot could swap them out for the canonical versions at its robotic leisure. I would really, really love to have back all the time I've had waste meticulously futzing with these parameters when there's no real need for it. Same goes for {{para|ISBN}} and {{para|ISSN}} aliases; no one should have to manually lower-case those. Ergonomic/efficiency/pain-in-the-ass problems like this are why many editors are resistant to using our citation templates. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 12:29, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
===Vol / Vol. and No / No.===
:All of our parameters except those that are initialisms (e.g. ISBN) start with lower-case letters, for consistency. See [[Module:Citation/CS1/Whitelist]]. So {{para|vol}}. I'm skeptical of {{para|no}} because it is ambiguous. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 12:55, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
::I know that "all of our parameters except those that are initialisms (e.g. ISBN) start with lower-case letters"; I'm obviously objecting to lack of initial-upper-case alternatives in two particular cases. I'm not suggesting that these should be the real, main names of the parameters, or even necessarily advertised. They should just silently work so we can get on with building an encyclopedia instead of being mired in pointless template-formatting nit-picks that make people want to abandon the templates. "No" isn't ambiguous in this context, as a parameter name. There are probably 1000+ templates on WP that have parameter names that, in other contexts and treated as stand-alone words, could be taken to mean something else. It's not an issue. The lack of these aliases definitely is approaching a [[WP:IAR]] / [[WP:JUSTFIXIT]] problem in my view, but these templates are easily broken, so I'm taking the long way. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 01:40, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
:::We have been actively deprecating and removing versions of citation template parameters that start with upper-case letters. All parameters, as far as I can tell by looking manually at the whitelist, are available in all-lower-case. This makes the citation templates consistent from one to the other and makes it very easy to remember the parameters' name styling.
:::I support {{para|vol}}. It is clear and unambiguous, and editors often use it, thinking that it is a valid parameter.
:::I object to {{para|no}} because it is confusing. We already have {{para|number}} as an alias for {{para|issue}}. {{para|no}} is confusing because it leads to the question "no what?" Also, many multi-word parameters already exist in this template, and the words used in these multi-word parameters, like "last" and "date" mean the same thing in each parameter. In the case of "no", we already have {{para|no-pp}} and {{para|no-tracking}}, so it is clear that in the context of citation template parameters, "no" means "no" (i.e. "negation"), not "number". Introducing another meaning for a word that is already used in parameter names is not good design. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 03:36, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
::::It doesn't lead to that question if it's documented. Do you mean that <code><nowiki>|Vol=12|No=7</nowiki></code> won't be understood? I give our editors more intelligence-credit. It's something that can be replaced by bot. The point is making it faster and easier to input citations from pasted text so people actually use the templates more. It's not a parameter to advertise, just to silently work if it's used. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 17:43, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
:::::As someone who spends considerable time fixing "unsupported parameter" and other types of citation errors, all of which are documented and produce red error messages, the argument that something will work fine because it is documented holds no water with me. Here are some example edits where I have fixed citations that were broken despite the documentation being clear: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernardino_de_C%C3%A1rdenas&diff=prev&oldid=665968421 1], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muscle_contraction&diff=prev&oldid=666974169 2], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Cite_doi/10.2307.2F25481910&diff=prev&oldid=665894841 3], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=James_Rodr%C3%ADguez&diff=prev&oldid=667149842 4], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Airbus_A380&diff=prev&oldid=667149818 5]. I fix a dozen or two of these on a typical day. You are welcome to look through my contributions for thousands of examples of edits in which I fixed citation errors that could have been avoided by editors' following existing documentation.
:::::You also appear to say that this parameter would be documented but that it would not be advertised. I don't understand the nuance there.
:::::I am open to other lines of reasoning. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 04:48, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
===ISBN / ISSN===
{{Resolved|1=Moot}}
::{{replyto|SMcCandlish}} You don't need to manually lowercase either {{para|ISBN}} or {{para|ISSN}}.
::<code><nowiki>{{cite book |last=Marles |first=R.J. |title=Collectors Coins Great Britain 1995 |edition=22nd |year=1995 |publisher=Rotographic |___location=Torquay |ISBN=0-948964-22-7 |ISSN=0262-9712 }}</nowiki></code> → {{cite book |last=Marles |first=R.J. |title=Collectors Coins Great Britain 1995 |edition=22nd |year=1995 |publisher=Rotographic |___location=Torquay |ISBN=0-948964-22-7 |ISSN=0262-9712 }}
::As shown here, you can use them uppercase, and no error is thrown; at some point, I expect that a bot will lowercase them. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 22:30, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
:::Good. Not sure when that was introduced, but I like it. Is it also the case for the rest of them (DOI, OCLC, etc.)? <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 01:40, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
::::Yes. Look at the Whitelist, linked above. All parameters marked as "true" work fine. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 03:27, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
== Any interest in checking for "edition" in |edition=? ==
{{para|edition}} automatically adds "ed.", but many citations contain text like {{para|edition|2nd ed.}}.
Is there any interest in having the citation module check for and flag redundant text of this sort? It could look for edition/ed/ed. and possibly other variants. I expect that a bot or a script would be able to clean up these errors readily.
Is there a potential for false positives? I can't think of any, but they crop up. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 17:51, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
:I see a potential problem for the template as it is, because "ed." is automatically added. Sometimes it may be necessary to provide a more complete description of the edition, and the work or abbreviation for "edition" should appear in the middle of the description. Example:
::*<nowiki>{{cite book| title = Astronomical Algorithms | first = Jean | last = Meeus | date = August 10, 2009 | orid-date = 1998 | edition = 2nd ed., corrected printing}}</nowiki>
::*{{cite book| title = Astronomical Algorithms | first = Jean | last = Meeus | date = August 10, 2009 | orig-year = 1998 | edition = 2nd ed, corrected printing}}
:Maybe the solution is to have a parameter such as {{para|ed-no-abbr}} which will not append "ed." and it will be up to the Wikipedia editor to describe the edition in a suitable way. [[User:Jc3s5h|Jc3s5h]] ([[User talk:Jc3s5h|talk]]) 19:23, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
::Maybe, but I've also recast things slightly so that the "ed." fits at the end because of this, and if we didn't add a parameter, {{para|edition|Corrected printing of 2nd}} would resolve the issue. <small>P.S., please don't use {{tl|para}} or similar in the heading as it breaks the automatic link to the section in the edit summary.</small> <span style="background:#006B54; padding:2px;">'''[[User:Imzadi1979|<font color="white">Imzadi 1979</font>]] [[User talk:Imzadi1979|<font color="white"><big>→</big></font>]]'''</span> 04:08, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
== archive-url requires archive-date ==
archive-date is a pre-requisite for archive-url, but is not listed as such in the table. This should be fixed. [[User:Kendall-K1|Kendall-K1]] ([[User talk:Kendall-K1|talk]]) 23:42, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
:Which page does this table appear on? I'll be happy to fix it. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 01:04, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
::[[Template:Cite web]], "Usage" section, "Full parameter set in vertical format" table. Sorry, I didn't realize that page's talk link came here, even though this is obviously where I ended up, and it says right at the top "This talk page is a centralized discussion for many other talk pages. When starting a new discussion, please note the exact page in question." Just not paying attention today. [[User:Kendall-K1|Kendall-K1]] ([[User talk:Kendall-K1|talk]]) 10:37, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
:::Fixed. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 13:00, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
== Italization of publications that are neither magazines nor newspapers or books ==
Websites are not italicized (see for example [[Facebook]], [[Wikipedia]] or [[Amazon.com]]), yet if you insert the title of a website in the "website" parameter of {{[[Template:Cite web|Cite web]]}} or the "work" parameter of {{[[Template:Cite news|Cite news]]}}, it is automatically italicized. The same goes for radio stations and possibly other types of sources as well. Shouldn't this be fixed? [[User:Littlecarmen|Littlecarmen]] ([[User talk:Littlecarmen|talk]]) 09:14, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
:Radio and TV stations are publishers, so they should be in the {{para|publisher}} parameter. Some TV stations' websites may have their own names; the site for WLUC-TV is named ''Upper Michigan's Source'', while the other local stations, lack names for their websites. ''Wikipedia'', if being cited, should be italicized. It's an online encyclopedia, and encyclopedia titles are italicized. As for your other two examples. since those are both the names of the websites and their respective companies, you can put them in {{para|publisher}} as well. <span style="background:#006B54; padding:2px;">'''[[User:Imzadi1979|<font color="white">Imzadi 1979</font>]] [[User talk:Imzadi1979|<font color="white"><big>→</big></font>]]'''</span> 10:54, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
::Thank you for the fast response! [[User:Littlecarmen|Littlecarmen]] ([[User talk:Littlecarmen|talk]]) 12:02, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
{{od}}For context, the question relates to [[Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Timeline of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370/archive1|a Featured List candidate]] and whether the name of a website should be placed in the "publisher" parameter if it is not a newspaper or magazine so that it is not displayed in italics. Websites are not among the works that should be italicized per [[MOS:ITALICS]]. This would mean, for example, that "BBC News" in the "website" parameter would need to be moved to the "publisher" parameter so that it doesn't display in italics (although, in this case, the correct publisher would be "British Broadcasting Corporation"). My reasoning against the requested move is that there is no consensus on style to apply to all articles ([[WP:CITEVAR]]) and per [[WP:CITECONSENSUS]], "If citation templates are used in an article, the parameters should be accurate. It is inappropriate to set parameters to false values in order that the template will be rendered to the reader as if it were written in some style other than the style normally produced by the template (e.g., MLA style)." A couple days ago, I spent a couple hours going through the article to make sure that all of the references used the appropriate CS1 template (News, Web, Journal), but I don't think adjusting the references to ensure that only major works (eg. newspapers & magazines) are italicized is necessary. Italicization of works in CS1 references has been discussed numerous times:
*[[Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 3 #Italicisation of websites in references|Italicisation of websites in references]]
*[[Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 3#Italicized work parameter|Italicized work parameter]]
*[[Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 1#Non-italicized news sources|Non-italicized news sources]]
*[[Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 4#Help with template: website?|Help with template: website?]]
The article is internally consistent in that it uses the CS1 formatting style and that it what I believe is relevant to the FL review, not changing the way CS1 style templates display paramaters or adjusting which parameters are included so that a particular style is created. [[User:AHeneen|AHeneen]] ([[User talk:AHeneen|talk]]) 19:46, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
:Note: I've also started a discussion [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Text formatting#Applicability to citation styles|here]] to propose amending the MOS to except citation templates. [[User:AHeneen|AHeneen]] ([[User talk:AHeneen|talk]]) 21:39, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
::In the context of a reference citation, a website is the title of a published major work, so should be italicized. When you refer to a website more generally ("I like using Facebook", "I'm the webmaster of foobarbazzketball.com") you're referring to an entity of another kind, a ''service'' (or a piece of advertising or a digital business card). Also, keep in mind that many websites have formal titles, and we only use the hostname when they don't, since our only evidence is that the hostname is in fact the title (this can often be confirmed by other text on the site). If I publish a book, through a reputable publisher, ''Juggling Cats'', and it has an online version/adjunct called ''JugglingCatsOnline'' (in camelcase), at jugglingcats.houghton-mifflin.com or whatever, the proper parameter for the site is {{para|work|JugglingCatsOnline}}, and it should be italicized in the reference citation. I would also italicize it in running prose if it was referred to as a published work, but not if it was referred to as a service, server, business, etc. (but that's an MOS matter, and I don't even remember if we make that distinction. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 01:24, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
== Simple way to resolve MOS and citation discrepancies ==
When CS1/CS2 are used in their default "native" Wikipedia citation style mode (i.e., not being used to generate an externally-derived citation style like Vancouver), they should entirely comply with MOS (but that doesn't mean what it sounds like). If there is some way in which they do not, then either they need to change, or a variance needs to be accounted for in the fine print over at [[MOS:TEXT]], and it will probably be the latter (though there have been some exceptions, I think).
What would be undesirable is addition of a rule exception for citation templates across the board at MOS:TEXT, because that would allow later divergence of CS1/CS2 in "native" mode from MOS for no reason (raising [[WP:LOCALCONSENSUS]] issues, people fighting about it). Our own internal citation styles should always be in agreement with our own internal style guide (even that mostly means MOS makes a variance for CS1/CS2). As long as we only add a rule in MOS:TEXT saying "does not apply to externally-derived citation styles like Vancouver, ..." or something to this effect (to keep people from stripping smallcaps or whatever), this should basically mean that MOS and the internal citation style are never out of synch for more than a brief time in which a simple discussion will resolve the newly arisen discrepancy. Easy-peasy. Certainly would resolve my MOS "vs." CS1/CS2 concerns in earlier threads.
In some cases this conflict is actually illusory anyway: As mentioned above (I think; I'm forgetting which page I posted on about it earlier), we do not italicize the names of websites. But they are being italicized in {{tlx|Cite web}}. It's not because it's an error or because CS1 is recalcitrant, it's because a different rule is being applied secondarily. The website name is being added without italics because it's a website (a default rule for that medium, as with application software). Then italicization is being {{em|added}} after the fact by a rule (italicize titles of major works) that is general and applies regardless of medium. So, in the specific context of a reference citation where the site is the {{para|work}}, then it would be italicized, because it's being contextualized as a major published work, not as an online service, business enterprise, or any other kind of "thing". Illusory or not, it's liable to be confusing without clarification, so we should account for it as a variance (because the usage in the cite templates is correct), rather than de-italicize in the template, and certainly rather than declaring MOS and CS1 to be in some kind of conflict. I would strongly suggest that this same kind of analysis be applied to any other apparent conflicts between the cite templates (in native mode) and MOS. We just fix them.
With externally-derived citation styles, I guess it's just a lost cause. We {{em|do}} need to allow for the fact that some externally-derived citation styles do things not conscionable under MOS normally. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 02:16, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
:I proposed the following at [[WT:MOSTEXT]], following on a first draft by AHeneen:
<blockquote>A specific rewording, addressing several needs at once, might run like this:
{{tq|Text formatting in citations should follow, consistently within an article, an established citation style or system. Options include either of Wikipedia's own template-based [[Help:Citation Style 1|Citation Style 1]] and [[Help:Citation Style 2|Citation Style 2]], and any other well-recognized citation system {{cross-reference|(see [[WP:CITEVAR]])}}. The formatting applied by [[Wikipedia:Citation templates|citation templates]] should not be evaded.<sup>[fn]</sup> Parameters should be accurate, and should not be omitted if the formatting applied by the template is not in agreement with the text formatting guidelines above. Those guidelines do not apply to any non-Wikipedia citation style, which should not be changed to conform to them.}}
{{tq|...}}
{{tq|<sup>fn.</sup> In unusual cases the default formatting may need to be adjusted to conform to some other guideline, e.g. italicization of a non-English term in a title that would otherwise not be italicized.}}</blockquote>
<blockquote>[What footnote system is used doesn't matter, of course, or it could be done not as a footnote at all. Any way you like.]<p>This provides more information and links, reinforces consistency within the article, distinguishes between WP and off-WP cite styles, permits necessary adjustments, and warns against alteration of non-MOS styles in externally-derived cite styles (important because some of them are quite jarring and frequently inspire "correction", especially to remove smallcaps).</p></blockquote>
I think that should cover it. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 03:52, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
== Print ISSN and Online ISSN ==
Sometimes two issn numbers are given - Print ISSN and Online ISSN. [[User:Darekk2|Darekk2]] ([[User talk:Darekk2|talk]]) 10:07, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
:Give the ISSN for the edition which you used as a source. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 11:28, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
==Extra checking of URL==
Hi, as suggested by {{User|Jonesey95}} I raise this here from original on [[Module talk:Citation/CS1/Feature requests]].
I think that there should be some additional checking on the {{para|url}} field and setting up a tracking category so that they can be looked at and fixed appropriately.
For the {{para|url}} check if there is text in the field other than the URL, easiest way to do this would be to check for mid-string white space. This would pick up things such as [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2014_NYPD_officer_killings&diff=prev&oldid=667414396 this].
[[User:Keith D|Keith D]] ([[User talk:Keith D|talk]]) 13:49, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
==Extra checking of Title==
Hi, as suggested by {{User|Jonesey95}} I raise this here from original on [[Module talk:Citation/CS1/Feature requests]].
I think that there should be some additional checking on the {{para|title}} field and setting up a tracking category so that they can be looked at and fixed appropriately.
A converse of the previous section would be to check for a URL in the {{para|title}} field as you should not get URLs in the title. This would pick up the inclusion of unnecessary details such as [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grigor_Dimitrov&diff=prev&oldid=667413052 this].
{{User|Jonesey95}} indicated that this had been [[Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 7#A proposed new error to detect: URL in .7Ctitle.3D|discussed previously]] but that nothing had been done about it so I am raising it again.
[[User:Keith D|Keith D]] ([[User talk:Keith D|talk]]) 13:49, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
== "reprint" editions ==
<nowiki>*{{cite book|last=His|first=Rudoulf|year=1928 (1967 reprint)|publisher=Oldenbourg|title=Geschichte des deutschen Strafrechts bis zur Karolina|asin=B0000BRMK3}}</nowiki>
versus
<nowiki>*{{cite book|last=His|first=Rudoulf|year=1928|publisher=Oldenbourg|title=Geschichte des deutschen Strafrechts bis zur Karolina|asin=B0000BRMK3}}</nowiki>
are reprint editions identical?[[Special:Contributions/96.52.0.249|96.52.0.249]] ([[User talk:96.52.0.249|talk]]) 05:05, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
:{{ping| 96.52.0.249 }} cite the edition you've actually consulted. If you used the reprint, then that's what heeds to be cited, which can be done as:
::{{cite book|last=His|first=Rudoulf|orig-year=1928 |year=1967 |edition= Reprint |publisher=Oldenbourg|title=Geschichte des deutschen Strafrechts bis zur Karolina|asin=B0000BRMK3}}
:using:
::<nowiki>{{cite book|last=His|first=Rudoulf|orig-year=1928 |year=1967 |edition= Reprint |publisher=Oldenbourg|title=Geschichte des deutschen Strafrechts bis zur Karolina|asin=B0000BRMK3}}</nowiki>
:In this case, the publisher and place of publication should be for the reprint, not the original. I hope that helps. <span style="background:#006B54; padding:2px;">'''[[User:Imzadi1979|<font color="white">Imzadi 1979</font>]] [[User talk:Imzadi1979|<font color="white"><big>→</big></font>]]'''</span> 05:26, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
::Awesome, well I made the section [[Talk:Impalement#"reprint" editions]] in regards to the citation.[[Special:Contributions/96.52.0.249|96.52.0.249]] ([[User talk:96.52.0.249|talk]]) 08:20, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
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