Wikipedia:Date formatting and linking poll/Autoformatting responses: Difference between revisions
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#'''Support''' autoformatting ''without'' autolinking. (This nullifies most of the "Oppose" !votes.) Makes it easier to maintain a consistent date format within an article and may make it easier to collect metadata. — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] [[User talk:Arthur Rubin|(talk)]] 02:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''' - it doesn't matter to me overmuch, but painful experience says that we will be flooded with complaints if we don't do this. However, any autoformatting solution should not result in automatic linking, should allow linking intentionally, should allow casual readers to set a viewing preference (this doesn't mean [[Special:Preferences]] especially, just a way to set a cookie), and should allow per-page setting of "correct" (per topic/___location) defaults for date display. If we don't do all of these, we'll just come back to the whole ugly fight again. <span style="white-space:nowrap">— [[User:Gavia immer|Gavia immer]] ([[User talk:Gavia immer|talk]])</span> 02:46, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#Support, per [[User:Anomie|Anomie]] and [[User:Gavia immer|Gavia immer]].-[[User talk:gadfium|<
#'''Support''', not necessarily with auto-linking, although proper handling of metadata is possible without this, it facilitates the process. The move to formatted articles with reusable data is a necessary development generally. Given the number of wikignomes and the ingenuity of bot programmers, there should be no great difficulty in implementing it. '''[[User:DGG|DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG|talk]]) 03:31, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''', especially given that the developers have ''already'' added the capability for link-free autoformatting to the system. Many of the other concerns expressed against DA can easily be addressed; for example, the "#formatedate" expression can easily be invoked through the use of a template with a much shorter name, such as "<nowiki>{{D}}</nowiki>". It is also a means to present a more professional look, as opposed to the mix of formats we now offer. (The multiple-date-format guideline is at odds with most other professional publications, which choose one or the other; when viewed as a collection, our articles appear inconsistent. When was the last time you saw Britannica or the ''Times'' use a ''mix'' of DMY and MDY?) --'''[[User:Ckatz|Ckatz]]'''''<small><sup>[[User_talk:Ckatz|<
#'''Support''', per Eluchil404. I would also support a spelling regionalisation autoformatting. [[User:AKAF|AKAF]] ([[User talk:AKAF|talk]]) 06:58, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. Before autoformatting was introduced, there were lengthy rows about how to format dates. This seems recently to have come back, just as some started delinking dates. -- User:Docu
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#'''Support'''. Readers may well be familiar with both "3 February 2009" and "February 3 2009" (and I have no strong preference for either format), but auto-formatting can help avoid the abominations that are "3/2/09" and "2/3/09", both by formatting as either "DD MMM YYYY" or "MMM DD YYYY" (i.e. not "DD/MM/YY" or "MM/DD/YY") and by encouraging editors to specify dates using the template. Consistency throughout an article is a big plus, and the option for readers to see date formats based on their browser or OS locale is a bonus. In the future auto-formatting could even be used to wikilink months and years, making dealing with the outcome of the two discussions below relatively trivial. Cheers, [[User:This flag once was red|<b style="color:#000">This flag once was red</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:This flag once was red|<span style="color:#f00">propaganda</span>]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/This flag once was red|deeds]]</sub> 17:14, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. I agree with flag's point above. It's much faster for me to see the dates in a way that I see everyday and can recognize. [[User:Grk1011|Grk1011/Stephen]] ([[User talk:Grk1011|talk]]) 17:20, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''' as I found it very useful and interesting to be able to click a date and see what other events happened then. Yes, there were (and still are) a lot of articles linked to specific dates (as happens in a world with a long history), but I think that argument is irrelevant. All this worry about articles having too many links to them is pointless worry as we will have more and more articles linked to each other as the encyclopedia grows. Are we going to start limiting the number of links which can be placed into articles when we reach 5 or 10 million articles just so we don't have "too many links" to any given article? That's just absurd. We're going to have to accept that many articles on main topic are going to have hundreds, thousands, and perhaps tens of thousands of links to them. In the case of dates, it's likely they will be on the high end of things, but that's what happens when an online encyclopedia grows. And the argument that someone is going to have to go put back the links that someone removed is absurd. Just run the same bots again, only in reverse. It certainly won't be any more difficult than it was to remove them all. I also think the date formatting part is very helpful, and it wouldn't be difficult to set the default for anonymous users (and those who haven't changed it) to something like "3 June 1934". ***[[User:Nihonjoe|<
##Making additional comments as SIllyFolkBoy doesn't seem to think my comments above are focused enough. Autoformatting would be extremely useful (as I pointed out above) in order to create a consistent formatting for dates, and it wouldn't be difficult to set the default format to something which is useful to everyone (such as the example I gave above. As I think the easiest way to implement this is the already existing date linking using square brackets, I included the comments regarding the usefulness of doing that, as well as my opinion on the absurdity of the "but it creates too many incoming links to the article" argument. ***[[User:Nihonjoe|<
#'''Support'''. Providing a consistent date format would be beneficial to the look of articles and wikipedia. Presumably IP tracing could also be used to provide MDY for North American readers and DMY for others even if not registered users. It would also negate the need for date linking as a way to autoformat which dilutes wikilinks and is generally of little use. Please at least implement the code so there is the option of using autoformat which can be determined, as with reference styles, by consensus on individual articles. |→ [[User:Spaully|Spaully]]<sup>₪</sup>[[User talk:Spaully|'''''†''''']] 18:07, 30 March 2009 ([[GMT]])
#'''Support''' I am a US user who reads and edits mostly US articles, but I hate the US standard for date formatting, much preferring the European standard. It's nice that Wikipedia can offer everyone the option to format dates as he prefers. I think the system was working fine until someone got a bee in his bonnet about "unnecessary" links. [[User:Ntsimp|Ntsimp]] ([[User talk:Ntsimp|talk]]) 18:27, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
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#'''Support'''- Why not let users choose how dates are displayed? --[[User:Jackieboy87|Jackieboy87]] ([[User talk:Jackieboy87|talk]] '''*''' [[Special:Contributions/Jackieboy87|contribs]]) 20:25, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''', tho MediaWiki automatically formatting dates with extra markup would be better, with nowiki for exceptions. -- [[User:Jeandré du Toit|Jeandré]], 2009-03-30[[User talk:Jeandré du Toit|t]]21:23z
#'''Support''' the benefits of automated time lines/this day in history pages could be big. '''[[User:Brandonrush|<
#Maybe I'm OCD, but I put a high emphasis on customizability as an integral part of usability. The new software update provides a great middle ground. –<font face="Edwardian Script ITC,Courier" size="3">[[User:Sarregouset|Sarregouset]]</font><small> [[User talk:Sarregouset|(talk)]]</small> 21:27, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''' though I don't think it's a big deal. Should be automatable enough not to be a big burden. Offers scope for (e.g.) searching for every article that references a particular date which, despite the handwaving in the Statement Against, doesn't currently appear to be possible. Consistency for readers is good. [[User:Gareth McCaughan|Gareth McCaughan]] ([[User talk:Gareth McCaughan|talk]]) 21:32, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
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#'''Support'''. Consistency and reader customisability are important factors here. [[User:Julianhall|Julianhall]] ([[User talk:Julianhall|talk]]) 22:16, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. Being a web programmer involved in many [[i18n]] debates myself, any way to provide users (readers moreso than editors) consistency in displayed data is helpful. --[[User:MikeVitale|<span style="color: #ce6300; background: #fff">Mike</span>]][[User_talk:MikeVitale|<span style="color: #fff; background: #ce6300;">Vitale</span>]] 22:38, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Strong Support''' With the new parser function and the possibility for a default, the main reasons for opposition are solved. In addition, there is no reason why we should provide anything less than the most convenient viewing experience possible [[User:Alexfusco5|<b><
#'''Support'''. I'd rather have the possibility to choose the date format that I'm most familiar with.--[[User:Piccolo Modificatore Laborioso|Le Petit Modificateur Laborieux]] ([[User talk:Piccolo Modificatore Laborioso|talk]]) 01:12, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''' Convenience. Also, it keeps the same style as before...autoformatting is helpful. [[User:Daniel Benfield|Daniel Benfield]] ([[User talk:Daniel Benfield|talk]]) 01:15, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
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# '''Support''' More based on the conformity and uniformity argument than anything else. '''[[User:Bahamut0013|<span style="background:#918151;color:#000;">bahamut0013</span>]]'''[[User talk:Bahamut0013|<span style="background:#D2B48C;color:#000;"><sup><small>words</small></sup></span>]][[Special:Contributions/Bahamut0013|<span style="background:#D2B48C;color:#000;"><sub><small>deeds</small></sub></span>]] 07:01, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
# '''Support'''. Autoformatting is a good thing, especially because most editors refuse to write dates in the format I find easiest to decode. With autoformatting all can be happy at the same time. Seriously, who could object to that? Most of the "oppose" votes here seem to argue against the ''linking'' of dates, which is indeed disturbing, but is not what this poll asks about either. –[[User:Henning Makholm|Henning Makholm]] ([[User talk:Henning Makholm|talk]]) 11:00, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
# – <small>''[[User:Iridescent|<
# '''Support'''. Autoformatting is neutral in appearance, while being adaptive to users who do want a preference in date style.[[User:GraemeLeggett|GraemeLeggett]] ([[User talk:GraemeLeggett|talk]]) 15:39, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''suppoet''' [[User:Bubba73|Bubba73]] [[User talk:Bubba73|(talk)]], 15:52, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
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#:"''Metadata fallacy...''" All seems to be concerned with the linking ability of the text which used to be the norm. This is not the case here and is completely off topic
#:"''The failure of the original autoformatting was largely due to the ad hoc imposition of a design by programmers acting without agreed specifications (clear objectives) by the community. The so-called fixes suggested are of limited scope and functionality, and have not been agreed to by the community. We should not risk allowing solutions to be tacked on bit by bit over the next few years, requiring increasingly complicated syntax even further remote from the average editor. Among these issues would be non-breaking spaces, AD/BC, slashed, ISO and Gregorian/Julian dates. Date ranges—avoiding the clunkiness and forced repetitions that the original system involved—would be a significant challenge.''" Okay...so what? We already have these problems, but by standardizing dates, we allow such mass changes Wikipedia-wide to be implemented with a single change to a single template instead of millions of changes.
#:<span style="background-color: maroon; color: white">[[User:BQZip01|<
#'''Support''' - I liked the ability to have the date fit your personal preference before it was depreciated, and set up all the content I wrote as such; plus, of course, what's the point in having the preference option to change it if the articles themselves can't be changed by it? [[User:Colds7ream|Colds7ream]] ([[User talk:Colds7ream|talk]]) 07:25, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''' - This is a no-brainer. Of course readers should generally see dates in their favorite format. --[[User:Guyzero|guyzero]] | [[User talk:Guyzero|talk]] 07:30, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
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#'''Support''' It was a great solution for an edit war that I participated in six years ago, and anything that makes it difficult for some to impose their POV about dates is worth having. [[User:Eclecticology|Eclecticology]] ([[User talk:Eclecticology|talk]]) 08:25, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''' Allowing autoformatting by personal preference will stop the whole linking-delinking edit war, allow user's their own preference without forcing it on anyone else. It solves a whole bunch of problems in one go. If the developers were to simply create autoformatting for dates, we wouldn't be having this discussion to begin with. The limited amounts of date formats mean it could even be done without additional formatting if the developers made the effort. - [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm]]|[[User talk:MacGyverMagic|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 09:52, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''' What with Wikipedia being an encyclopedia, consistency is essential. If a user really objects to having to pay extra attention to the way they input dates, then I'm sure the job could be carried out by a bot, and by supporting users. [[User:-m-i-k-e-y-|<strong>-<
#'''Weak support''' "Weak" because of the problem of inconsistency for unregistered users. <b><i>[[User:Ed Fitzgerald|Ed Fitzgerald]]</i> <sub>[[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|t]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|c]]</sub></b> 13:08, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''', per Jeff (consistent dates, less edit warring).--Esprit15d • <small>[[User_talk:Esprit15d |talk]]</small> • <small>[[Special:Contributions/Esprit15d|contribs]]</small> 13:29, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
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#'''Support''' - "This is a no-brainer. Of course readers should generally see dates in their favorite format." [[User:Arbus Driver|-Arb.]] ([[User talk:Arbus Driver|talk]]) 21:51, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''' - Far too many articles are already marked with the globalize maintenance template for the most trivial of reasons, some even more trivial than the formatting of the date. The solution offered to replace autoformatting-- to wit, relying on the "overall format" of an article for date format localisation/localization-- likely will aggravate rather than mitigate this situation. -- [[User:JeffBillman|JeffBillman]] ([[User talk:JeffBillman|talk]]) 23:11, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''' – I'm a fan of options, but I'm an even bigger fan of ''consistency'', which is extremely difficult (more like impossible) to acheive on a wiki site. <font face="constantia">[[User:Momoricks|'''<
#'''Support''' - Was going to vote "No" on the basis of the difficulty of implementing the Autoformatting system - but on thinking it over I feel that Wikipedia is just the platform for these technological systems to be worked out - and having consistency over all articles for users is a very good thing. In response to the "There's no problem" argument - I don't think that change should necessarily be negated on the basis of having a problem or not. The "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" argument ignores the possibility of new tools that may or may not provide a better experience. You'll never know if you don't try though. [[User:Australian Matt|Australian Matt]] ([[User talk:Australian Matt|talk]]) 02:03, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Strongly Support''' Allowing dates to be autoformatted on a per user is an excellent idea. This embodies Wikipedia's spirit of neutrality. The auto format tag adds the benefit of ensuring dates through out Wikipedia are tagged, so if a better format is later discussed, they will can be rolled over to the new format very easily. That being said, I think an easier syntax might make it more understandable to new users.
#:I understand that certain people have emotional "buy in" to the current format, spending thousands of man-hours manually editing dates to their current format. For their contribution I thank them, but I have the same appreciation for their thousands of hours of work as I do for a coder who completed a task of similar scale in several hours of coding. (provided that coder didn't step on to many toes.) We must not forget that it is the fruit of your labor that are propagated to the community, not your journey.[[User:Gsonnenf|Gsonnenf]] ([[User talk:Gsonnenf|talk]]) 04:39, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Conditional Support''' — Dates should be formatted automatically by the server as the page is assembled for the viewer. Editors shouldn't have to do anything to accomplish this—just type the date consistently throughout an article and it's done. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet|talk]]) 05:52, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''' looking to the future, auto-formatting simple-syntax dates provides future proofing beyond what many users currently comprehend. All (well, mostly) BOT achievable and provides a consistency not being achieved currently due largely to inconsistencies and constant edit and reverts. Default presentation for IP users, and even that can be targeted based on perceived ___location. Preferences can even be provided on individual basis for IP by cookie system such as used by google and countless others. What is the resistance to improvement here? not any work for anyone who doesn't want to do it, BOTs and wikignomes can make it happen far better that current mess. Autoformat also allows instant switchback between linking and unlinking per the annual argument over that - and yes, I am aware linking is not intertwined with formatting.--<small><b><i>Club<
#'''Support'''. To me the advantages of autoformatting are obvious. Updating existing pages will gladly be taken care of by bots. [[User:Dampinograaf|Dampinograaf]] ([[User talk:Dampinograaf|talk]]) 21:03, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. --[[User:IanOsgood|IanOsgood]] ([[User talk:IanOsgood|talk]]) 22:39, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
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#'''Support'''; to me this is a common-sense feature that an online encyclopedia ought to support, and the extra complexity required is not that much - if complexity had been a concern since the beginning WP would never have been created. [[User:Time3000|Time3000]] ([[User talk:Time3000|talk]]) 10:48, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support'''; I prefer the idea of uniformity. [[User:Tsjackso|tsjackso]] ([[User talk:Tsjackso|talk]]) 14:52, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support'''; If an argument can be found then an argument will occur. You cannot keep everyone happy unless you give them what they prefer. Trivial though it may be arguments have happened over less. If autoformatting can give people their own preferred date format then it's all to the good. The current system works and is only being deprecated by editors looking to find something wrong and then argue about it. Human nature at its very best. So, in my view, autoformatting is the way to go using the current system which is easy to achieve, easy to remember how to do it without any arcane template formatting to remember. Easy is good, easy is less prone to error and best of all easy is a great way of pissing off people who just want to make life difficult just for the sake of it! --[[User:WebHamster|'''<
#'''Support'''; Both globalization and localization are made easier this way. There is genuine ambiguity in DMY or YMD e.g. my birthday 12/04/72. Within articles with much collaboration, especially in the references, dates typically ARE NOT consistent within the article even now. Let the machine do the stupid work. Also, just because the facility is there does not mean it has to be made compulsory, any more than linking or putting something into sections is compulsory. [[User:SimonTrew|SimonTrew]] ([[User talk:SimonTrew|talk]]) 19:56, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''' on todays date of 05/02/09 or 02/05/09. Mainly because ''all English-speakers recognize both'' is patently false, if this were the case there wouldn't be half the MOS date issues and date revert wars. <sup>[[User:Khukri|'''<font face="verdana" color=#6633cc>Khu</font>''']][[User_talk:Khukri|'''<font face="verdana" color=#CC66FF>kri</font>''']]</sup> 23:32, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
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#'''Support''' Definite improvement in general user experience, and this doesn't even need a JS or MediaWiki hack to implement (though they might make it smoother). A template, some CSS classes and the already existing <code>#time</code> parser function would be sufficient to do this. [[User:Carolina wren|Carolina wren]] ([[User talk:Carolina wren|talk]]) 16:38, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''' Wikipedia is a rich Web application. Having an option for user defined date formatting in a rich Web application is a no-brainer. [[User:Dissolve|<span style="color: #000; font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small; font-weight: bold;">dissolve</span>]][[User talk:Dissolve|<span style="color: #000; font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><sup>talk</sup></span>]] 19:48, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''' per #149 and #90. (Yes, I did my own thinking, but other people are better at writing arguments than I am.) ~[[user:orngjce223]] <
#'''Support''' - I don't care greatly about this debate, but I don't have any problem with the general concept of autoformatting. The benefits seem pretty obvious, the costs much less so. [[User:Robofish|Robofish]] ([[User talk:Robofish|talk]]) 23:47, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. Autoformatting is an effective way to localize dates in a format the user is most familiar with, and would prevent inconsistency in date formats across articles. [[User:New traffic pattern|NTP]] ([[User talk:New traffic pattern|talk]]) 04:23, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
# '''Support'''. There is too much inconsistency in Wikipedia. I support any measure that increases consistency across articles. <font color="DarkGray">...</font> [[User:Misty Willows|<font color="CC33CC">'''''Misty'''''</font><font color="FF66FF">'''''Willows'''''</font>]] <sup>[[User talk:Misty Willows|'''<font color="DarkGray">talk</font>''']]</sup> 08:09, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''' I like to see a consistent format of dates, but as different users have different preferences, some form of autoformatting is required. -- [[User:MightyWarrior|MightyWarrior]] ([[User talk:MightyWarrior|talk]]) 11:44, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''' because I think it will be easier to have this feature than to agree a common format for dates; and without an agreed common format, articles begin to look messy and inconsistent. <font face="Gill Sans
#'''Support''' This should solve all reasonable problems. [[User:Hipocrite|Hipocrite]] ([[User talk:Hipocrite|talk]]) 14:06, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. This, apart from allowing each user to choose date formatting, also gives them the choice of linking dates or not. This should please registered viewers, and the real debate should be over autolinking for unregistered users. (I assume that the date format would be chosen based on the country of origin of the user and thus need not be debated.) {{unsigned|Psbsub}}
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#'''Support''' The uniformity of the dates throughout Wikipedia would be a small, but necessary, improvement to the professionalism of the website [[User:Sean118|Sean118]] ([[User talk:Sean118|talk]]) 00:03, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''' Autoformatting prevents edit wars between tiny minds. There are users who think the current link-formatted dates are God's own gift and removing all autoformatting will likely annoy them greatly. [[User:Cstaffa|Cstaffa]] ([[User talk:Cstaffa|talk]]) 00:06, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''' - The option to choose how dates are displayed is an important one- sure, users of both systems can recognize the other, but why should they have to do so? It makes it easier all 'round and prevents edit wars. --[[User:Alinnisawest|Alinnisawest]],<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Alinnisawest|<
#'''Support''' --[[User:Michael93555|Michael]] ([[User talk:Michael93555|talk]]) 04:21, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''' - Having dates in different formats is confusing. --[[User:Pot|Pot]] ([[User talk:Pot|talk]]) 04:45, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
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#'''Support''' - Wikipedia should be genuinely international. If any country other than the US had adoped a different date format we wouldn't even be having this debate. Given the preponderance of US editors, however, it's not unreasonable to toss them a bone and let them format dates as they see fit while the rest of the world gets on with it. [[User:AngoraFish|<font color="550000">AngoraFish</font>]] [[User talk:AngoraFish|<font color="8b9b74">'''木'''</font>]] 13:54, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''' if the syntax is simple; also, consider something (e.g. teensy superscript dot) to reassure reader he's seeing an autoformatted date and not just literal text that might mislead. But my support vanishes if it in any way leads back to that awful overlinking of years, dates, etc.[[User:EEng|EEng]] ([[User talk:EEng|talk]]) 19:03, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''' Irrelevant links just distract form those that are truly of value to the reader. --[[User:Droll|<
#'''Support''' The overhead seems minor, and it lets readers see dates in a consistent manner. Also, consider that the day may come when the format "March 11, 2009" looks terribly out of style and we'll all want those individual instances updated. Better to just automate it now, while Wikipedia is still small. [[User:Spiel496|Spiel496]] ([[User talk:Spiel496|talk]]) 01:29, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''' This will improve consistency and display dates per user preferences. But will it eliminate thousands of punctuation errors such as omitting the final comma from "September 9, 1974," where "1974" is essentially an [[appositive]] that should be set off by commas on either side?[[User:Martindelaware|Martindelaware]] ([[User talk:Martindelaware|talk]]) 06:29, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
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#'''Support''' as long as it is optional, and we don't have bots going around changing plain text dates to formatted dates. Let true consensus, through normal human editing, decide if this is generally useful or not. [[User:DHowell|DHowell]] ([[User talk:DHowell|talk]]) 04:11, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''' useful feature for improving international usability [[User:JulesH|JulesH]] ([[User talk:JulesH|talk]]) 11:02, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''' It could be done gradually and optionally (like { { i p a | } } ), and would help solve the other two problems mentioned.<font face="Candara">[[Special:Contributions/Jchthys|<font color="dark red">—</font>]][[
#'''Support''' No need for any bot runs, but as said above let this develop naturally. The option is important as a fly-by editor one does not want to worry about formatting dates the ''right'' way (Is this an American or English article?) Autoformat will do nicely[[User:Agathoclea|Agathoclea]] ([[User talk:Agathoclea|talk]]) 14:38, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''' - Autoformatting certainly has potential, I would like to see more options - such as users logged out being able to set some kind of preference, to further take advantage of Wikipedia's electronic nature. It is good that linking is no longer required for autoformatting, and the potential is still open to allow bots to do most of the labour, though it could just develop slowly over time through human editing. I do believe consistency across article would be helpful, like with other encyclopaedias, and while it perhaps ought to be trivial this clearly matters to more than a few people. [[User:Camaron|Camaron | Chris]] <small>[[User talk:Camaron|(talk)]]</small> 14:40, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Strong Support''' Wikipedia is not a [[WP:PAPER]] encyclopaedia, and editors who aren't bothered or don't know how to format dates can leave it to editors who can. Symanticising (if that's a word) articles is only a good thing. -- '''[[User:M2Ys4U|M2Ys4U]]''' <sup>(
#'''Strong Support''' Makes sense to support the most popular format --[[User:Thelostlibertine|Thelostlibertine]] ([[User talk:Thelostlibertine|talk]]) 18:01, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. I feel that Linked dates would be good as it would help avoid conflicts as when Tropical cyclones transfer basins it causes headaches for WPTC members. Also i feel that if we are meant to link to "relevent articles" then why shouldnt we link to the date articles? [[User:Jason Rees|Jason Rees]] ([[User talk:Jason Rees|talk]]) 23:32, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support'''. Date formatting enables the reader to quickly understand dates, and everyone has their preference (I set mine a while back). For unregistered users, it would be a pipe dream to eventually combine autoformatting with either OS/browser locale settings (if accessable from the web server) or by inferring for the country where the IP address ___domain orginates (using some kind of GeoIP database). <tt>+[[User:Mwtoews|<
#'''Support''' as the best solution to the related article inconsistencies, edit wars and the policy deadlocks that result without it (e.g. the above-mentioned [[WP:WPTC]] situation not to mention the historic inability to achieve consensus with date format proposals [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Proposal on international date format|such as this]]). Autoformatting provides a superior ability to adapt and distribute Wikipedia content in a global environment. Date format differences carry systemic bias issues e.g. MDY carries a particularly American systemic bias which if enforced on many articles would reflect poorly on Wikipedia as a global project (and that's [[WP:NPOV]]). Also some date formats used in practice ([[ISO 8601]], YMD) are excluded by policy, but could be retrieved with autoformatting. Most of the capability is already implemented in Wikimedia - it's [[wiktionary:low-hanging fruit|low-hanging fruit]] in terms of [[Internationalization and localization|i18n and L10n]] that should be cleaned up for date ranges and non-registered users, then we should move forward and once again make good use of it. [[User:Dl2000|Dl2000]] ([[User talk:Dl2000|talk]]) 01:18, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Support''' - I definitely like the idea of having the system (finally) format dates to my own preference, rather than whatever format an author likes. Personally, I prefer "YYYY-MM-DD", since that is what I am used to from computer programming. The other way I like to see dates is "DDDD, MMMM D, YYYY". The thought of being able to change dates around like that (something computers can do so easily) is very nice. I've always hated using wiki markup as a kludge to make that work, so I tended not to do so. But once this gets approved and we can start formatting dates automagically, that will be wonderful. It should be as automatic and transparent to the user as possible. Ideally, no special tags required. If a date is in the article and recognizable as a date, the software should adapt it. If there is something that's not a date but is recognized as one, there should be a simple tag (nowiki perhaps, being familiar and similar in purpose?) that would prevent false positives. --[[User:Willscrlt|<span style="color:#46E">'''Will'''</span><span style="color:#D13">scrlt</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Willscrlt|<span style="color:#46E">→“¡¿Talk?!”</span>]])</small> 14:06, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
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=====I oppose the general concept of autoformatting=====
#'''Oppose''' If [https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4582#c65 Brion thinks] that Autoformatting should be removed, that's good enough for me. I think the benefits of autoformatting do not outweigh the trouble implementing it will cause, such as tagging millions of dates with a marker to allow autoformatting. <font face="Verdana" color="blue">[[User:Steve Crossin|Steve Crossin]] <sup>[[User talk:Steve Crossin|<
#'''Oppose''' Per all of the arguments against. We don't need more options. Neither of the accepted date styles are difficult to understand. I think we should continue to move away from the ISO style and we shouldn't be relying on autoformatting for consistency. [[User:Rambo's Revenge|<b><
#'''Oppose''': This is complicated software, don't let anyone persuade you it's a piece of cake. If they haven't been able to get it right in SIX YEARS, nothing makes me think they will get it right any time soon. Of course Brion Vibber knows what he's talking about. While people say 'no pain, no gain', this is just sooo much pain for little gain. Applying [[lipstick on a pig|lipstick to a pig]] doesn't change the fact it's a pig. [[User:Ohconfucius|Ohconfucius]] ([[User talk:Ohconfucius|talk]]) 23:21, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Weakly oppose'''. If this issue were to arise now, we would solve it by permitting both formats, along the lines of [[WP:ENGVAR]]. Autoformatting was a failed effort at a technical fix to a behavioral problem, and it faces irresoluble grammatical difficulties about whether a comma comes after the date. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 23:23, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
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#'''Oppose''' There is no "problem" to solve. As it has been noted, [[WP:ENGVAR]] works well for English variants, so why not dates? [[User:Dabomb87|Dabomb87]] ([[User talk:Dabomb87|talk]]) 23:47, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose'''. -- [[User talk:Donald Albury|Donald Albury]] 23:53, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''': What problem are we trying to solve by this? <small>[[User:Seicer|<
#As a featured contributor, I have found no reason for it. --[[User:David Fuchs|<
#'''Oppose'''. The "pro" arguments are not convincing at all, but the "contra" arguments describe very real problems. All the disadvantages just to give a few people the option to display an article with US spelling in UK date format or vice versa? This is obvious feature bloat. --[[User:Hans Adler|Hans Adler]] ([[User talk:Hans Adler|talk]]) 00:00, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' - Most Wikipedia users are ''readers'', not editors, therefore most features should be designed for them. Datelinking devalues useful links. It also necessitates useless extra work for editors. [[User:Awadewit|Awadewit]] ([[User talk:Awadewit|talk]]) 00:07, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' autoformatting. I hate that meaningless blue mess of [[WP:OVERLINK|overlinked]] dates. And isn't it rather odd that people from the US and UK are supposed to be befuddled by each other's ''practically'' identical date formats, when the rest of the world with their much more wildly variable date formatting is quite capable of understanding both of them? [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 00:07, 30 March 2009 (UTC).
#'''Oppose''', I don't really see this as needed, I'm not convinced there's a problem that needs this as a solution. [[User:Raven1977|<
#'''Oppose''' I would have thought this had been settled the first, second, and [[Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/RFC:_Unresolved_date_delinking_and_autoformatting_issues#Date_autoformatting|third time around]]. Now we’re at it a fourth time. No, autformatting is not desirable. Nor is it necessary. Just chose the format most appropriate for the article (based on [[Wikipedia:Mosnum#Full_date_formatting|MOSNUM guidelines]]), write it out in fixed text, and be done with it. Jumping through all these hoops just so a handful of editors can be spared the shock of seeing a date format they disapprove of is something they will survive; I guarantee it. <span style="white-space:nowrap;">'''[[User:Greg L|Greg L]]''' ([[User_talk:Greg_L|talk]])</span> 00:26, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose'''. If Wikipedia readers are smart enough to handle "colour" vs "color" and "aluminium" vs "aluminum", they can handle "30 March" vs "March 30". On that premise, I would apply the [[KISS principle]] and avoid the added complexity. -- [[User:Tcncv|Tcncv]] ([[User talk:Tcncv|talk]]) 00:31, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''': there is no need for autoformatting. As already mentioned, it enhances the differences between the registered and unregistered uses, masking any potential inconsistencies. Every article should be consistent, using [[WP:MOSNUM]] and [[WP:ENGVAR]].—[[User:Mdcollins1984|MDCollins]] ([[User talk:Mdcollins1984|talk]]) 00:36, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#Per Tcncv. [[User:NuclearWarfare|<
#'''Oppose'''. Editors seeing a different output than the readers is a recipe for disaster. I appreciate autoformating, it is nice to have (international format FTW), but when I first became aware of its shortcomings, I stopped using it. Ever since, I've seen a great deal of articles being inconsistent because of this. Articles that have been fixed because I turned the feature off. The only way I would support autoformatting is if '''ALL''' articles would have the '''SAME''' ouput for unregistered users, preferably international dates (DD MM YYYY) as we are addressing an international readership. AKA, no tagging individual pages with magic words specifying in what format dates should be displayed, that's just asking for having endless revert wars until the end of time. [[User:Headbomb|Headbomb]] {<sup>[[User talk:Headbomb|ταλκ]]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-4.0ex;">[[Special:Contributions/Headbomb|κοντριβς]]</sub> – [[WP:PHYS|WP Physics]]} 01:24, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''': the pros pointed out benefit only those who are logged in. For those who are not logged or are not registered users, they might see dates of varying formats. Autoformat does not promote consistency; the actual text is still inconsistent (and as pointed, obvious to those not logged in). Without autoformat, editors would readily spot any consistency errors in the date formats for an article. [[User:Jappalang|Jappalang]] ([[User talk:Jappalang|talk]]) 01:46, 30 March 2009 (UTC) ''Add-on'': <s>this is added in response to [[User:Sapphic|Sapphic]]'s broadcasting to users who have opposed on the grounds that "autoformatting can be fixed for anonymous users".[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AJappalang&diff=280978912&oldid=280521237][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sapphic] It still does not solve anything, firstly, no one has come up with a workable solution yet (it is only proposed). Secondly,</s> Editors do not need to jump through more hoops to simply input a date. My oppose stands. [[User:Jappalang|Jappalang]] ([[User talk:Jappalang|talk]]) 01:19, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
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#'''Oppose''': Marking up millions of articles for the benefit of few editors is definitely not worth the effort .[[User:SteveB67|SteveB67]] ([[User talk:SteveB67|talk]]) 02:07, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
# –<strong>[[User:Juliancolton|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#36648B">Juliancolton</span>]]</strong> | [[User_talk:Juliancolton|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:gray">''Talk''</span></sup>]] 02:13, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''': there are so many reasons—the costs are horrendous and the benefit little (frankly, nothing, since day-month/month-day order is trivial); the risks are high that things will go mucky or that we'll be left holding a very smelly puppy; it breaks a basic principle that simplicity is best (if at all possible, and it is the reality now). I hope WPians do the cautious thing and throw this one out for good. [[User:Tony1|<
#'''Oppose''': too much monkey business. dates should be entered in a consistent format throughout articles, and logged-in editors should see the same thing unlogged-in readers see. [[User:Sssoul|Sssoul]] ([[User talk:Sssoul|talk]]) 04:21, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose'''. This seems like a lower priority than spelling autoformatting (<nowiki>{{#formatword|color|colour}}</nowiki>), and would make the edit boxes just as hard to read.--[[User:Srleffler|Srleffler]] ([[User talk:Srleffler|talk]]) 04:42, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
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#'''Oppose'''. For all the same reasons as every other time we've been asked the same question. Utterly pointless function that provides extra work and complication for editors and developers, while providing nothing of value for anyone (especially our readers who won't see it anyway). Will also damage Wikipedia, since if editors use this tool then they won't see dates as readers see them, and so will leave certain errors (punctuation, format consistency) uncorrected.--[[User:Kotniski|Kotniski]] ([[User talk:Kotniski|talk]]) 11:18, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose'''. I do understand the difference between autoformatting and linking. I can see many problems resulting from autoformatting. Anyone who has cursed at MS Word (as I do when using someone else's machine) should oppose an extension of nannydom. (I use OpenOffice.) [[User:Peridon|Peridon]] ([[User talk:Peridon|talk]]) 12:34, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose'''. They look silly, often link to completely unrelated pages and devalue important links in "difficult" articles. I have contributed three FAs and I see absolutely no value in having linked dates. When I first discovered Wikipedia, I clicked on those silly linked dates thinking that additional information on the subject in question could be found. I am sure others have done this. [[User:GrahamColm|Graham <
#'''Oppose''' it's a "solution" to a "problem" that is not serious, and implementing it would be just add another never-ending task for Wikipedia. (New users won't necessarily know how to autoformat dates, so we would be constantly having to clean up after them.) <b class="Unicode">[[User:Rjanag|r<
#'''Oppose''' given the extra work for minimal benefit. --[[User talk:NE2|NE2]] 13:37, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
# '''Oppose''' without repeating the reasoning for the gazillionth time in yet another poll (and noting that most of the Support reasoning is faulty). [[User:SandyGeorgia|Sandy<
#'''Oppose'''. How many more polls on this issue are we going to take? — [[User:EmilJ|Emil]] [[User talk:EmilJ|J.]] 13:40, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose'''. What matters the most is internal consistency in articles (as in the language question), and autoformatting is not needed for this purpose. [[User:Punkmorten|Punkmorten]] ([[User talk:Punkmorten|talk]]) 13:43, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
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#'''Oppose'''. Who is Wikipedia for, the readers or the editors? The vast majority of our users never edit and are not registered. And from the perspective of an unregistered user, autoformatting makes our articles worse, not better, because it encourages editors to format their dates without regard for the way dates are generally formatted in the article concerned. A simple extension of [[WP:ENGVAR]] solves the problem. ''[[User:Pfainuk|Pfainuk]]'' <small>''[[User Talk:Pfainuk|talk]]''</small> 15:22, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' any type of autoformatting that requires that dates (or pages) have special syntax. This is a barrier to entry for new/inexperienced editors which does not appear to by justified by the negligible benefit it provides to registered users. I would be surprised if there were many editors who did not understand that 2 March and March 2 are the same date. I also oppose automatic autoformatting of all dates on a page because that would negatively impact quotations, which should have the date in the format that it was used in the source. [[User:Karanacs|Karanacs]] ([[User talk:Karanacs|talk]]) 15:23, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' Not worth the effort. [[User:Alan16|<
#'''Oppose''' <sigh> Congratulations to Ryan P and all others who've tried to keep this going in a civil manner, but this topic is tiresome. Autoformatting brings no benefits and has downsides. --[[User:Dweller|Dweller]] ([[User talk:Dweller|talk]]) 15:57, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' --[[User:JBC3|JBC3]] ([[User talk:JBC3|talk]]) 16:04, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' Not worth the effort and would reduce the readability of the wiki source. [[User:Plastikspork|Plastikspork]] ([[User talk:Plastikspork|talk]]) 16:20, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''', way too much complexity for most users, and zero benefit for the vast majority of our readers. --[[User:Laser_brain|<
#'''Oppose''' I honestly don't see the point - dates are more than readable as they are. It's just making extra wok for minimal gain. Whilst I can see the interest on forums, I think Wikipedia should just leave its style be. [[User:Greg Tyler|<b style="color:#00A">Greggers</b>]] <sup style="color:#A00;font-weight:bold;font-size:10px;">([[User talk:Greg Tyler|<b style="color:#A00">t</b>]] • [[Special:Contributions/Greg Tyler|<b style="color:#A00">c</b>]])</sup> 16:23, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' PMAnderson summarises my views exactly. --[[User:RexxS|RexxS]] ([[User talk:RexxS|talk]]) 16:37, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''', this seems to be creating more work and problems with very little benefit. We have some amazing programmers who can help us through any perceived problems. Our readers deserve better articles and we really have spent a ''lot'' of energy on these discussions and project-wide on this issue. [[User_talk:Benjiboi| -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj<
#'''Oppose:''' Others said it well, namely Pfainuk, Greg L, Largo Plazo, and GRBerry. An extension of WP:ENGVAR is applicable to the issue of date formats, and far preferable to encouraging editors to observe only their local formats. We have no trouble recognising the different variations and might as well autoformat serial commas or whatever other myriad of variations are lurking in the English language. I vote for focusing on perfecting content and having internally consistent articles, instead of creating loads of work to allow an editor-only preference which half would never bother "turning on" anyway. [[User:Maedin|<b><
#'''Oppose''' Violates KISS principle and also, Autoformatting is an excessive approach for such a minor aspect: All our readers perfectly understand both MD and DM. Have you ever seen a child look at MD/DM dates and say "what does that mean"? Too much of the community's time has been taken up with this already. We all have better things to contribute to/improve Wikipedia. [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]] ([[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|talk]]) 17:06, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' As long as dates are consistent within an article there is no problem c.f. other international variations. [[User:OrangeDog|OrangeDog]] <small>([[User talk:OrangeDog|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/OrangeDog|edits]])</small> 17:19, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
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#'''Oppose''' I think it's difficult to decouple autoformatting from autolinking - currently, you have to make a link or use a parser function. The former is distracting when you view an article, the latter when you edit an article. I don't think the feature is worth the hassle. The resultantly simpler wikitext syntax will benefit new editors and performance, by making the code (slightly) less complex. [[User:RupertMillard|RupertMillard]] <small>([[User talk:RupertMillard|Talk]])</small> 17:37, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#:Apparently this was insufficiently clear for [[User:Sapphic]]'s taste. I don't mean it's technically difficult to have one without the other because that would be absurd. I meant it's difficult to debate one in isolation — if the only way WP will have autoformatting is with <nowiki>[[]] syntax (autolinking or not) or {{#formatdate}}</nowiki>, the resultantly ugly/hackish wikitext is IMO too great a price to pay for a very slight benefit. Now if somebody wants to ask me about autoformatting with new syntax such as <<2009-04-01>>, as I think I saw somewhere, I'll be neutral, as long as IP users see something easy on the eye, be it tailored to their ___location or not. [[User:RupertMillard|RupertMillard]] <small>([[User talk:RupertMillard|Talk]])</small> 08:32, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per others. '''[[User:American Eagle|<
#'''Oppose'''. Better to embrace the international diversities than use the User prefs to snub them. One should become accustomed to seeing the differences just like you would at your bookshelf. That is part of the learning experience.<br>[[User:Berean Hunter|<font face="High Tower Text" size="2px"><b style="color:#00C">⋙–Ber</b><b style="color:#66f">ean–Hun</b><b style="color:#00C">ter—►</b></font>]] ([[User talk:Berean Hunter|<b style="color:#00C">(⊕)</b>]]) 18:49, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose'''. Autoformatting, even if it could be made to work properly, offers very little advantage but has very significant disadvantages, as others have drawn attention to above. --[[User:Malleus Fatuorum|Malleus]] [[User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum|Fatuorum]] 19:16, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
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#'''Oppose''' - ugh, another RFC? How many times are we going to go through this? --'''[[User:PresN|<span style="color:green">Pres</span>]][[User talk:PresN|<span style="color:blue">N</span>]]''' 23:43, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose'''. There is no ambiguity in understanding the two formats allowed. A lot of effort for a purely cosmetic issue. Same issue as regional spelling differences and should be treated exactly the same way. --[[User talk:NrDg|NrDg]] 00:02, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' - There's no reason why general readers should see something different than a few logged-in users who have preferences set. '''[[User:Giants2008|<
#'''Oppose''', serves no purpose link wise as the links do not go anywhere useful, adding excessive blue links everywhere (by default, automatically "overlinks" article as dates are usually repeated multiple times. Also negates the purpose of even formatting dates in articles, and can be confusing to IP and new users who see one thing in the article, decide to edit, and see something totally different. Write them as text, and leave it at that. -- [[User:Collectonian|<span style='font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; color:#5342F'>Collectonian</span>]] ([[User talk:Collectonian|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Collectonian|contribs]]) 01:55, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose'''. Auto-formatting is a "solution" looking for a problem. It's not even a good solution as it cannot address every date format currently used on WP; and there is no indication that a technical solution can even be found for all the issues raised during the debate. ''If'' a technical solution is implemented, its syntax promises to be complex enough to place it beyond the reach of the average editor. A real solution to the date-consistency "problem" is to simply enter dates in a consistent manner—using plain text. All other significant issues simply disappear with the "plain text" strategy. [[User:HWV258|<b><font style="color:Navy;background:LightSteelBlue;font-family:Arial" size="2"> HWV258 </font></b>]] 02:07, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
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#'''Oppose''' autoformatting. This is a technical solution that lacks a problem to solve. [[User:Tempshill|Tempshill]] ([[User talk:Tempshill|talk]]) 03:04, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''': It looks like a solution in search of a problem. There is a significant penalty in terms of making the markup more complicated and intimidating to new users. Keep it simple. [[User:Hawthorn|Hawthorn]] ([[User talk:Hawthorn|talk]]) 03:09, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose.''' I don't care if my date is formatted one way or the other. It's like color vs colour. I can read and comprehend both. [[User:RainbowOfLight|<
#"Welcome to Wikipedia, the encyclopedia that ''anyone'' can edit." What I have always liked about Wikipedia is that the biggest thing you need to learn to contribute is how to make a wikilink. Basic information like dates shouldn't require formatting more complex than that. Wikipedia has developed a culture that does [http://media.www.commonwealthtimes.com/media/storage/paper634/news/2007/11/08/News/Vcu-Student.Triggers.Wikipedia.Showdown-3088322.shtml discourage new users and old alike] and there's no need to code the site to be in synch with that exclusionary culture.[[User:Otherlleft|otherl]][[User talk:Otherlleft|left]]<sup>[[Wikipedia:Editor_review/Otherlleft|No, really, other way . . .]]</sup> 03:33, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' <s>Autoformatting</s> Date linking served no rational purpose and wasted the time of writers and editors. I don't want it to return. [[User:Finetooth|Finetooth]] ([[User talk:Finetooth|talk]]) 03:47, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
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#'''Oppose''': There's no problem that this solves. If dates must be in a certain format, they can be treated similar to British vs. American English: a given format should be used where it is reasonable. [[User:NJGW|NJGW]] ([[User talk:NJGW|talk]]) 07:54, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Weak Oppose''': I'd oppose more strongly if I felt it was an important issue, but I don't see that we should be offering autoformatting if it isn't consistent across all dates in the encyclopedia (including sigs), and it could allow for all sorts of dates in the first place. However, it's a bit of a non-issue, we'd do better to agree a recognised style in the MOS if only that was possible. --<small><span style="border:1px solid #000000;background:#ffffff">[[user:Worm That Turned|<font style="color:#ffffff;background:#008000;"> WORM</font>]][[User_talk:Worm That Turned|<font style="color:#008000;">MЯOW </font>]]</span></small> 08:03, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' We need less links on pages. Linked dates clog up pages with blue, reducing readability. They also make pages look less professional. We do not have a linked autoformatting system to 'convert' between US/UK spelling, why should we have it for a dating system that is completely mutually understandable? Autoformatting has been a constraint for Wikipedia for years, and should be gotten rid of as soon as possible. <font face="serif">[[User:Arsenikk|<font color="green"><strong>Arsenikk</strong></font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Arsenikk|<
#'''Oppose''' Autoformatting is not seen by unregistered users, but the datelinks are, and they look like a classic case of [[WP:OVERLINK|overlinking]]. In fact, for years I wasn't even aware of the autoformat feature and was constantly irritated at these superfluous links. They still seem unprofessional to me, just like you wouldn't link the word "born" in "[[Barack Obama]] was born in [[Hawaii]]." --[[User:Zvika|Zvika]] ([[User talk:Zvika|talk]]) 08:54, 31 March 2009 (UTC) Added in response to a [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AZvika&diff=280985430&oldid=280619819 comment] by Sapphic: While my main opposition is to datelinks, I also oppose autoformatting which does not appear as a link, primarily because of the wikimarkup complications which appear to be inevitable with this kind of approach. Our markup needs simplification, not the opposite. Perhaps [[utopia|one day]], when we have a WYSIWYG editor. --[[User:Zvika|Zvika]] ([[User talk:Zvika|talk]]) 13:36, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' Can create far too many blue links in articles. --[[User:JD554|JD554]] ([[User talk:JD554|talk]]) 11:35, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
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#'''Oppose''' This is a weak solution without a problem. Most readers are not even logged in anyway. [[User:Richard75|Richard75]] ([[User talk:Richard75|talk]]) 17:22, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' I agree with Richard75; I don't think this will accomplish much except put off new editors and make other editors spend time making minor edits, to very minor effect. [[User:Ricardiana|Ricardiana]] ([[User talk:Ricardiana|talk]]) 17:29, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose'''. Most readers aren't logged in, and the different date formats are easy to understand anyway. In addition, anything that reduces the sea of blue in articles is welcome. This is a solution looking for a problem. [[User:SlimVirgin|<
#'''Oppose'''. What the Statement Against says - specifically, there is no problem to solve. Furthermore the solution is arduous for new editors, and potentially error-prone. [[User:DavidBrooks|David Brooks]] ([[User talk:DavidBrooks|talk]]) 17:40, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' – <b>[[User:Theleftorium|<
#'''Oppose''' - just solving problems that don't exist. We have plenty of real problems to solve and articles to expand. [[User:The Rambling Man|The Rambling Man]] ([[User talk:The Rambling Man|talk]]) 18:10, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
#Per Steve Crossin. --[[User:Nemo bis|Nemo bis]] ([[User talk:Nemo bis|talk]]) 18:12, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
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#'''Oppose'''—Anderson above mentions "irresoluble grammatical difficulties", here's another. Take the phrase ''an August 7 decision'' change format and you have to have ''a 7 August decision''. <nowiki>{{#formatdate:}}</nowiki> cannot even handle ranges yet; can we expect ever to have it handle this? But let's suppose for the moment that these problems are solved (... it's the year 2187 ...) autoformatting brings with it another ill. By displaying dates in the user's preferred format underlying inconsistency can be hidden from the very people who would otherwise be fixing such problems. Perhaps a page-by-page default system could be implemented to avoid this. Thus WikiMedia's autoformatting has a fair way to go until it is a realistically workable solution. Is it worth the trouble? Is there any great difference between looking at the other sides date formatting as opposed to looking at their spelling? Date formatting is just one aspect of dialect, let it thus go under ENGVAR ... or at least until someone comes up with a workable solution to that. [[User:Jimp|J<small>IM</small>p]]<sub> [[User talk:Jimp|talk]]·[[Special:Contributions/Jimp|cont]]</sub> 08:07, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
#in the words of Donald Knuth, "premature optimization is the root of all evil". But I would be all for a smart ''client-side'' date autoformatting tool, e.g. in the shape of a firefox plugin. --[[User:Dbachmann|dab]] <small>[[User_talk:Dbachmann|(𒁳)]]</small> 08:34, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose'''—Not a benefit that editors see date formats that vary from that which the general reader sees. We are all flexible enough to recognize and understand dates in various formats. —[[User:Mattisse|<
#'''Oppose'''. I've happily gone my whole life without realising that this is an issue, or that there are (supposedly) country-specific preferences. I read "April 1" and "1 April" equally easily -- the difference doesn't even register. As many others have said, I don't see that there is a problem to solve, and I oppose the unnecessary addition of markup that simply serves to make editing more cumbersome, cryptic, error-prone and time-consuming. Matt 11:55, 1 April 2009 (UTC).
#'''Oppose''' I don't really see the point in this [[User:VJ|VJ]] ([[User talk:VJ|talk]]) 12:42, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
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#'''Oppose''' - I basically think it is a waste of manpower to make the overhaul.--[[User:TonyTheTiger|TonyTheTiger]] <small>([[User talk:TonyTheTiger|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/TonyTheTiger|c]]/[[User:TonyTheTiger/Antonio Vernon|bio]]/[[WP:CHICAGO]]/[[WP:LOTM]]) </small> 00:12, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' - Too much work for the gain, though I cannot agree with those who say the existing date formats pose no problem. The ISO dates are a pain in the neck and the problem for dates before the 12th of the month is real and needs to be addressed by editors. But i cannot see that autoformatting is a solution. [[User:Hamiltonstone|hamiltonstone]] ([[User talk:Hamiltonstone|talk]]) 00:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' - There's no real problem to fix; most people can understand both forms of dates. It essentially seems like a lot of work for next to no real gain. '''''—[[User:LedgendGamer|<
#'''Oppose''' - There's really no need for it. 2 April or April 2, not all that different than the difference between color and colour. Simple difference depending on your dialect. Not a big deal in my view. --[[User:Sable232|Sable232]] ([[User talk:Sable232|talk]]) 02:38, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' Date formatting would give complex wikitext with the only benefit that sensitive people used to "April 1" could hope to never see "1 April", and vice versa. Complex wikitext makes it harder to focus on the important content in an article. Date formatting would be a pointless overhead on the WP servers, and a frivolous time-waster for editors. [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 02:39, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
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#'''Oppose'''. I suspect most readers don't care whether an article says April 2 or 2 April; the order is trivial enough not to warrant the additional coding complexity. [[User:Steve|<span style="font-variant: small-caps;">'''Steve'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Steve|T]] • [[Special:Contributions/Steve|C]]</sup> 22:02, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' this unnecessary added complexity.—[[User:S Marshall|<font face="Verdana" color="Black">'''S Marshall'''</font>]] [[User talk:S Marshall|<font color="black" size="0.5"><sup>Talk</sup></font>]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|<font color="Black" size="0.5"><sub>Cont</sub></font>]] 22:24, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' - Our own Chief Technical Officer says: "My personal recommendation would be to remove all date autoformatting." THis whole thing is complex and laborious with little to no added benefit. As long as a date is given, I don't care if it's written April 2, 2009, 2 April 2009, or the second day of the month of April of the year 2009. [[User:Jd027|<b><
#'''Oppose'''. Do I have to repeat the arguments? -- [[User:TakuyaMurata|Taku]] ([[User talk:TakuyaMurata|talk]]) 01:47, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
# '''Oppose''' - We should not manipulate article text to the animosities of certain user groups, especially when there is absolutely no problem with understanding any date variant. [[User:Cacycle|Cacycle]] ([[User talk:Cacycle|talk]]) 02:50, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
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#'''Oppose''' Keep it simple, choose an appropriate format per [[MOS:NUM]], and write it out consistently. We can cope with [[WP:ENGVAR]], we don't need a technical solution to cope with using an appropriate date format. [[User:Struway2|Struway2]] ([[User talk:Struway2|talk]]) 20:19, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' - There is no real point, it causes problems, and it is not worth the effort and disputes. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 20:21, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose'''. I don't see how the result is worth the cost. '''''[[User:Bibliomaniac15|<
# '''Oppose'''. Never did see sense in it. --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] ([[User talk:Moni3|talk]]) 03:18, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
# '''Oppose''' - Anything that requires digging through preference options will only be used by a tiny handful of users. Furthermore, the vast majority of our users aren't even registered. Much work, little benefit. [[User:Shoemaker's Holiday|Shoemaker's Holiday]] ([[User talk:Shoemaker's Holiday|talk]]) 06:02, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
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#'''Oppose''' Inelegantly solves what needn't be. --[[User:User6985|Thomas B]]♘<small>[[User_talk:User6985|talk]]</small> 16:53, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
# '''Oppose'''. Arguments against really sum it up completely. — '''''[[User:Explicit|<font color="000000">Σ</font>]][[User talk:Explicit|<font color="000000">xplicit</font>]]''''' 19:02, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose:''' Don't think dates should be linked, looks messy. [[User:Ryan4314|<strong><
#'''Oppose''' - I supported the first time, when first brought up, I support it now. --<span style="font-family:Times New Roman">[[User:ThinkBlue|'''<span style="background:MediumBlue;color:White"> ThinkBlue </span>''']] </span><span style="font-family:Times New Roman">[[User_talk:ThinkBlue|(Hit]]</span> <span style="font-family:Times New Roman">[[User:ThinkBlue/Autograph book|'''BLUE''')]]</span> 22:32, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per excellent arguments. As Tony said, simplicitty without sacrificing quality is key; sadly, autoformatting has the potential to violate both. — '''[[User:Deckiller|Deckill]][[User talk:Deckiller|er]]''' 23:43, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''': I believe we should strictly follow ISO standard in all and any cases not just with dates but time, units and everything else. Could this be achieved autoformatting would be a trivial task of simple pattern recognition that even could be done locally with java scripting, the only special tag needed is in the case when a format should not be localized. The reason I oppose this is that I think that all form of localization should be in a general format, to implement a special case for dates would be confusing and will work against a uniform standard in the raw text format. I understand that "correcting" everything to ISO standard is a monumental task however I think the benefit outweighs the cost and we do not lack the manpower to do so. [[User:SweBrainz|Brainz]] ([[User talk:SweBrainz|talk]]) 04:22, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' - Only a small subset of Wikipedia readers will benefit from auto formatting and the complex syntax deters new editors. -- [[User:Swtpc6800|SWTPC6800]] ([[User talk:Swtpc6800|talk]]) 04:27, 6 April 2009 (UTC) Each month Wikipedia has about 56 million unique viewers. There are only 180 thousand Wikipedians that set a data preference so at best it is 1 out of 300 viewers (0.3 %) that will benefit from date autoformatting. -- [[User:Swtpc6800|SWTPC6800]] ([[User talk:Swtpc6800|talk]]) 02:41, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' - I disagree with differing formats for registered v. non-registered. [[WP:ENGVAR]] answers this non-problem perfectly.--[[User:2008Olympian|<
#'''Oppose''' - Lack of impact/beneficiaries compared to amount of work to implement. Remember cost/benefit. [[User:Annihilatron|Annihilatron]] ([[User talk:Annihilatron|talk]]) 13:28, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' - Linking dates for the purpose of reformatting breaks the typical user's concept of linking and they also end up with tons of irrelevant links all over the page. The proposed replacement is just as bad. People who absolutely need to have date reformatting, should do it with a personal javascript or a browser plugin. -- [[User:Austinmurphy|Austin Murphy]] ([[User talk:Austinmurphy|talk]]) 14:26, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' - No reason why date format cannot be done in the same way as spelling and other regional differences. [[User:Richard New Forest|Richard New Forest]] ([[User talk:Richard New Forest|talk]]) 14:52, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per #1 and per ''if it crashes the server''... '''[[User:Miranda|<font face="verdana"><
#'''Oppose''' in the cost-benefit analysis, the small cost of added complexity outweighs the almost-indistinguishable-from-zero possible benefit. [[User:Knepflerle|Knepflerle]] ([[User talk:Knepflerle|talk]]) 16:37, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' This is a waste of resources imho. [[User:R3ap3R.inc|R3ap3R.inc]] ([[User talk:R3ap3R.inc|talk]]) 17:03, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
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#'''Oppose'''. Support Jimp (147). The "for" reasons are very weak. [[User:Platia|Platia]] ([[User talk:Platia|talk]]) 14:06, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' Seems like far too much effort and risk for something so trivial. If implemented, it could be followed by proposals for auto-formatting British vs. US spellings, etc. How boring. One delight of Wikipedia is its heterogeneity - it's also the nature of the English language. Why try to squeeze that heterogeneity into a uniform box? [[User:Pinkville|Pinkville]] ([[User talk:Pinkville|talk]]) 14:56, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' In isolation, auto-formatting is potentially neat. When measured against its downsides, however, it falls short. The very minor upsides are not worth all of the hassle. --[[User:Cyde|<
#'''Oppose''' Seems like a lot of effort to solve a minor issue, and another step on the learning curve for new editors. What's next, an ENGVAR-corrector? '''<font face="Arial">[[User:Acroterion|<
#'''Oppose'''. This is supposed to be ''The Encyclopedia anyone can edit'', not ''The Encyclopedia anyone willing to learn esoteric markup rules can edit''. We're already too far down this particular slippery slope, I think. [[User:Jgm|Jgm]] ([[User talk:Jgm|talk]]) 20:45, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' per Awadewit. [[User:Nev1|Nev1]] ([[User talk:Nev1|talk]]) 21:33, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
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## Another argument is that DA prevents petty arguments. We are supposed to be writing an encyclopaedia for the world at large, not just for the editors. We are all working on one project, so we should be seeing the same things that our readers see. It is one thing to customise things like time zone in the talk and project pages, but in the mainspace, I hold this as a non-negotiable principle.
#: I could say much more on DA, but the bottom line is: we don't need it, and we'll be better off without it. [[User:The Duke of Waltham|Waltham]], <small>[[User talk:The Duke of Waltham|''The Duke of'']]</small> 14:41, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' [[user:kennedy|<font color="#800000" face="lucida handwriting">Kennedy</font>]] <sup>([[user_talk:kennedy|<
#'''Oppose''' I find it useful to see the date format an editor uses to get a rough idea which side of the pond they're on. Plus, autoforatting dates is really, really minor. --[[User:Armchair info guy|Armchair info guy]] ([[User talk:Armchair info guy|talk]]) 15:11, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' Keep Wikipedia as simple and straightforward as possible. [[User:Apuldram|Apuldram]] ([[User talk:Apuldram|talk]]) 17:32, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' The oppose box sums it all up perfectly for me. I just don't see it as necessary, and it can be complicated and confusing for newcomers. --[[User:Ged UK|<
#'''Oppose''' I do not see why it is neccesary and I can see how it hurts newcomers. [[User:Zerter|Zerter]] ([[User talk:Zerter|talk]]) 19:19, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Vote for this''' (opposing an opposing position is nonsense). Please stop bickering and voting endlessly over something of such minor importance. Brion Vibber's solution is fine by me, as are any number of variants. Nice though it is, we don't need autoformatting of dates, and apparently there isn't consensus to do that. There would be no consensus for autoformatting of spelling, surely. Enough said, end of story. ''[[User talk:Geometry guy|Geometry guy]]'' 20:57, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
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#'''Oppose''' Everyone should use YYYY-mm-dd format. [[User:Python eggs|Python eggs]] ([[User talk:Python eggs|talk]]) 04:39, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' As well as the many other reasons mentioned, I think it adversely impacts readability. [[User:Hohenloh|<font face="Old English Text MT" color="darkblue" size="2"><b>Hohenloh</b></font>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Hohenloh|<font face="Old English Text MT" color="darkblue" size="2"> + </font>]]</sup>19:45, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' I acknowledge that this might be beneficial for some, but overall will probably bring more evil than good. <strong>[[User:Husond|<font style="color: #082567">
#'''Oppose''' I imagine that after a tremendous effort, and the burden of an ongoing cost to many editors and IT, the entire encyclopedia from a readers point-of-view will be, all other things held equal, ''mostly unchanged.'' - only editors with negative experiences and ongoing frustrations would be aware of it a month or so after the unvieling. --[[User:Karbinski|Karbinski]] ([[User talk:Karbinski|talk]]) 20:45, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' having got used to un-autoformatted dates, the advantages of linking dates to date articles is outweighed by the cleaner appearance without trivial blue links for unimportant dates. I've never set the preferences, as it's always better in my opinion to see the dates formatted according to the preferences of the relevant country, as with spelling. Too much effort and hackery to fix a non-problem of dates in two commonly recognisable arrangements. . [[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 21:57, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
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#'''Oppose''' Date autoformatting can easily end up as an excuse for editors to impose difficult to understand formats in the normal text, justifying this by saying "if you do not like it, just set your date autoformat preferences". Wikipedia pages should be written so that normal people can understand them - they should not need to be logged in members with various wikipedia-only preferences set up.--[[User:Toddy1|Toddy1]] ([[User talk:Toddy1|talk]]) 21:07, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' Linking dates is pointless silliness that sends the wrong message and is ugly. [[User:2005|2005]] ([[User talk:2005|talk]]) 23:01, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose...BIG TIME''' We love over-complicating things here, don't we? <small>[[User:Udonknome|<
#'''Oppose''' A waste of time for editors with very little benefit for anyone. [[User:McKay|McKay]] ([[User talk:McKay|talk]]) 01:57, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose''' Just doesn't work and is hardly necessary. --[[User:Itub|Itub]] ([[User talk:Itub|talk]]) 02:37, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
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# '''Oppose''' --[[User:Juliaaltagracia|Juliaaltagracia]] ([[User talk:Juliaaltagracia|talk]]) 06:47, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
# '''Oppose''' We don't autoformat issues such as American/British usage, so why do this issue? 11 April 2009 and April 11, 2009 are both unambiguous, and as long as an article is ''internally'' consistant, there is no need for all of Wikipedia to be so. It would be exactly like autoformatting British users to read "colour" where American users type "color". It seems rather pointless. If the software could be modified to recognize and autoformat dates ''without'' any action from users (such as adding wikilinks or template headers or magic words or ANYTHING) that MAY be an OK idea. But the notion that editors should have to add square brackets or even worse, an entire template, to every date just so that we can pick whether we want the month name first or second seems beyond pointless. --[[User:Jayron32|Jayron32]].[[User talk:Jayron32|<small>talk</small>]].[[Special:Contributions/Jayron32|<small>contribs</small>]] 14:54, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
# '''Oppose''' per above arguments. [[User:NSR77|<
# '''Oppose''' What need is there for such a feature? This is not a rhetorical question; the answer is none. Unnecessary and trivial – basically per above. [[User:Andre666|Andre666]] ([[User talk:Andre666|talk]]) 17:15, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
# '''Oppose''' as per Scheinwerfermann (#233) and Waltham (#244). Also, the value of helping persnickety WP editors to see dates always in the format they're used to seeing them in does not outweigh the bother involved. No one is confused by dates, and editors need to be tolerant about style. [[User:Reconsideration|Reconsideration]] ([[User talk:Reconsideration|talk]]) 18:20, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
#'''Oppose'''; too much effort for too little return. Make it truly automatic (no special formatting required) or forget it. --[[User:Spangineer|Spangineer]]<sup>[[:wikisource:User:Spangineer|ws]]</sup> [[User talk:Spangineer|<small
#per all of the above arguments, and because a decision is needed. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 21:11, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
# — [[User:Jake Wartenberg|<font color="#21421E" face="Harrington">Jake</font>]] [[User_talk:Jake_Wartenberg|<font color="#21421E" face="Harrington">Wartenberg</font>]] 23:49, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
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# Tired of this stupid debate over dates. Lets get back to writing articles and improving the '''substance''' of the content. [[User:Aboutmovies|Aboutmovies]] ([[User talk:Aboutmovies|talk]]) 21:28, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
# What, this still hasn't been resolved? Wait, that's no surprise. What this problem needs is someone proficient in PHP and very familiar with MediaWiki spending about a month working on code covering as many cases as possible, and ''then'' coming back and presenting their model + test cases. In the meantime, I could care less, and I have [[User talk:Dinoguy1000/to-do|far better uses]] of my time than arguing over something so utterly trivial. <span style="white-space: nowrap;">「[[User:Dinoguy1000|ダイノ]][[User talk:Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: #080; font-weight: normal;">ガイ</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Dinoguy1000|<span style="color: #F90;">千</span>]]？！」<sup>(Dinoguy1000)</sup></span> 22:16, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
# Link them, don't link them, how does that matter? I once found that I like the dates being in pretty blue links, but most of the time they don't really serve a purpose. Let's just be done with this discussion so that we can continue to write our articles without linking/delinking dates over and over again. <span style="background:white;color:"><
# Much ado about nothing <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:J04n|J04n]]([[User talk:J04n|talk page]])</font> 01:13, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
# Per A. di M. above. [[User:Ruslik0|Ruslik]] ([[User talk:Ruslik0|talk]]) 07:17, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
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* I guess we need to add to the bold flashing editnotice that "unregistered users see inconsistent dates" ''can be easily fixed'', so opposing on that basis is rather … misguided. And edit wars would occur just as often in the absence of a magic word with autoformatting, but they'd be worse because the warriors would be messing with dates all over the article (and possibly missing some each time). [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 02:48, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
**'''Prevention of edit-warring?''' The notion I see raised above by one or two editors that autoformatting is needed to avoid edit-wars over which format is chosen for an article is, I believe, barking up the wrong tree. Yes, apparently the original system was a response to friction on this matter, but 2003 was early days for the community, and we had established proper rules for neither date formatting nor ENGVAR spelling. We now have well-established practices for both (MOSNUM, MoS), and they are highly successful, by all accounts. [[User:Tony1|<
***And yet still not as simple as letting editors enter dates in whatever format they like and letting the system auto format them to what readers prefer... at some point in the chain (editing/reading) you'll have someone using or seeing a date format they don't prefer when it needn't be that way. —[[User:Locke Cole|Locke Cole]] • [[User talk:Locke Cole|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Locke Cole|c]] 10:56, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
***With regards to these "well-established practices" for date formatting, if they are really "highly successful", why has Wikipedia's Chief Technical Officer called for a rewrite of that guideline to use only one consistent format site-wide? --'''[[User:Ckatz|Ckatz]]'''''<small><sup>[[User_talk:Ckatz|<
****I am on record as wanting a mono-format for dates. Unfortunately, I am in the minority. It's not going to happen, because people believe WP:ENGVAR works, so we have to live with it. Having date-autoformatting could be likened to slicing off part of your feett to fit the new undersized shoes you just bought (in other words, don't make a mistake to compensate for a dumb move. [[User:Ohconfucius|Ohconfucius]] ([[User talk:Ohconfucius|talk]]) 13:51, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
*** Note that at the time of my comment above, there was only one person alluding to autoformatting as a solution for edit warring (and that in a vague, "it would have helped in this one case" way), while there was one "oppose" specifically claiming that autoformatting with a magic word for setting a default format for the article would directly lead to edit warring over the default format setting with the implication that there would not be such edit warring otherwise. I agree that autoformatting is not ''needed'' for edit war prevention; although it would likely prevent some would-be edit warriors from ignoring or fighting over how to apply [[WP:ENGVAR]], I personally regard that as a side effect rather than a major driving reason. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 12:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
*<small>''(In response to Neutral #1 above)''</small> Would something along the lines of "<nowiki>{{d|30 March 2008}}</nowiki>" be simple enough? Keep in mind that the function "#formatdate" can easily be called from a template with a much simpler name. --'''[[User:Ckatz|Ckatz]]'''''<small><sup>[[User_talk:Ckatz|<
*:Considering the millions of times such a template would be called, that would be an enormous waste of server resources; but we could ask that the #formatdate function be renamed to #d, for example. --[[User:A. di M.|A. di M.]] ([[User talk:A. di M.|talk]]) 08:48, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
*Expansion on my rationale. One of the arguments for autoformatting is to "present a consistent date format". I think we should have consistency, but I don't believe autoformatting is the way forward. Personally, I would love for every article to use the fairly international style of day before month, but I fear that people like arguing about the pointless stuff too much for that to ever happen. [[User:Rambo's Revenge|<b><
:*Isn't that an argument for auto formatting? Here we have a system that removes the need to argue (ever!) over which format to use, and it's a simple software solution. —[[User:Locke Cole|Locke Cole]] • [[User talk:Locke Cole|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Locke Cole|c]] 13:44, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
::*No it is not. If IPs—the majority of Wikipedia readers—cannot choose their preference then autoformatting is not a good option. The only way to prevent IPs from getting a horrible mess of different formats is to choose what they see. If we do that, we might as well choose the style for everyone or completely standardise all dates into one format. [[User:Rambo's Revenge|<b><
:::* Part of the current proposal is that there would be a Wikipedia-wide default format setting (most likely DMY) for everyone who has not set a preference, including IP users, and a magic word so a particular article can change the default (i.e. to MDY) when that is appropriate per [[WP:ENGVAR]]. Then user preferences override the default for that user. This has been said time and time again, which is why can't [[WP:AGF|in good faith]] understand why opposers keep claiming IP users will see some sort of mish-mash. I also find a claim that every IP user has to be able to set a date preference spurious, as we have an easy way for anyone to set ''any'' preference: register an account. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 15:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
::::*But the point you are missing is that in order to maintain consistency for all users, ''every'' date on a page needs to be coded (in order to be rendered properly based on various preferences). The problem with "every date" is that it is extremely difficult to define rules needed in order to detect all the different types of date formats found on WP. Date ranges and slashed-dates are just two examples, but also difficult is to precisely detect the comma in US date formats. These issues remain unaddressed—after months of debate, and lots of examples demonstrating the problems can easily be found. Many people voting "support" are unaware of the technical issues involved. (Incidentally, I don't blame them so much as these issues are not easily grasped by people who have not been involved with the debate for some time.) [[User:HWV258|<b><font style="color:Navy;background:LightSteelBlue;font-family:Arial" size="2"> HWV258 </font></b>]] 00:46, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
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:::*The IPs would not get a bunch of different styles since the feature would provide a standard default for them. Also, developers have mentioned using Javascript to allow IPs to set a preference, though no developer has yet worked on that solution.—[[User:Ost316|Ost]] ([[User talk:Ost316|talk]]) 15:06, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
::::* *sigh* If you actually read my last post I never claimed IPs will get a mish-mash of styles. I said that the only way to prevent them getting that is to choose their preference for them. I then said that there is no point in choosing a standard style for them, because it would need to be agreed upon. If we can agree a choice for that, we should just implement that choice as ''the'' date style across Wikipedia without autoformatting, because that would give real consistency. I am well aware of what is going on and am not fond of other users trying to twist my words towards their !vote. [[User:Rambo's Revenge|<b><
:::::* You have presented a [[false dichotomy]] in assuming that we would have to pick one format for all of Wikipedia for IP users, with no possibility of overriding that where [[WP:ENGVAR]] calls for another format. So yes, you're not quite claiming "IP users will get a mish-mash of styles"; you're claiming "IP users will get a mish-mash of styles unless we get rid of [[WP:ENGVAR]] on this issue". [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 22:19, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
*<small>''(In response to Oppose#89 above)''</small> FYI, we are discussing that; the recent changes to the system now allow autoformatting to apply a default format for unregistered users, and there is a patch in the works (I'll try to get the Bugzilla link ASAP) that would add the "per-page" option you've mentioned. --'''[[User:Ckatz|Ckatz]]'''''<small><sup>[[User_talk:Ckatz|<
*:Um ... no, Josiah is talking about autoformatting in the sense of allowing a few privileged editors to select a month-day or day-month order. A consistent fixed-text format for IP users is the reality in the thousands of article that have dispensed with autoformatting. [[User:Tony1|<
*::Actually, you're both right. I '''oppose''' autoformatting as it currently exists, as a special option for a few editors. However, I would '''support''' autoformatting as something that could be applied universally '''with appropriate regional variations'''. For example, if a citation using the ugly 2009-04-05 format were used in two articles, one dealing with a US-based subject and the other dealing with a UK-based subject, it would appear (to all readers) in the US-based article as April 5, 2009 and in the UK-based article as 5 April 2009. I'd support an autoformatting system that automatically translated dates in that fashion, as long as there was a parameter that allowed for articles to use appropriate formats, in keeping with [[WP:MOSDATE]]. In other words, I'd support autoformatting as a method for producing consistency within articles, but I oppose autoformatting as a way to enforce consistency throughout the encyclopedia, or as a way to make dates appear consistent to a small minority of readers. —[[User:Josiah Rowe|Josiah Rowe]] <small>([[User talk:Josiah Rowe|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Josiah Rowe|contribs]])</small> 06:06, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
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:::Sorry; either I made a mistake; they changed their !votes, or the !votes got renumbered. Still, the purpose of this poll is to find [[WP:CONSENSUS]], and I don't see even a clear supermajority for '''oppose''' (yet). As not wanting logged-in editors to see different content than unlogged in users, one might argue that it's a reason contrary to policy as defined by the developers. We would need to remove the gadgets and javascript customization. I'll post more on the talk page. — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] [[User talk:Arthur Rubin|(talk)]] 16:06, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
*:The "only for editors" claim has been bandied about throughout this debate over the past year, simply because it is an easy rallying cry for the three or four core editors who are really pushing the "delink" campaign. Thing is, there's never been any proof for the numeric claims (despite repeated requests), and never any acknowledgement of the ''readers'' who may have registered an account not to edit, but in order to access features such as date formatting, watchlists, and gadgets. (The "only for editors" mantra also fails to mention that IPs can't access ''any'' special perks, not just autoformatting.) --'''[[User:Ckatz|Ckatz]]'''''<small><sup>[[User_talk:Ckatz|<
'''Good grief! how hard can it be?'''. The whole formatting thing is a no-brainer. Simple fact is, if functionality is provided for autoformatting it can be provided to most IP users too with simple preferences option for them via cookie system or countless other ways. Search engines, most news sources and millions of commercial sites have been doing it since Jesus was a small boy. Come down to it, autoformatting also allows the potential to do away with the linking argument completely because it can be controlled by a users preferences as well. Want to link dates? switch it on via preferences. don't want them linked? leave it off. And don't bore me with the non-logged in users rubbish - most of them a: don't care, b: have cookies turned on (or are unaware of their presence) or c: know how to allow for cookies by site. BOTs to do the bulk conversions to ''simple syntax'' (say YYYY-MM-DD or #dYYYY-MM-DD) and wikignomes will make short work of the rest. Default presentation for those who haven't set it (maybe with a bit of fancy footwork detecting where they are accessing from to feed them American or ISO format by default). Doing ''something'' is unlikely to make it more inconsistent than it currently is.--<small><b><i>Club<
* Has anyone thought of having a bot do autoformatting? That would nearly neutralize editor requirements, just invest some effort in the bot, and sit back and watch! [[User:Oldlaptop321|Oldlaptop321]] ([[User talk:Oldlaptop321|talk]]) 23:58, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
:I think it is accepted on all sides that there will be bots and templates to assist (and hopefully not to destroy). If it is relatively relaxed and gets it right most of the time, like Template:Coord or Template:Convert, I don't see it being a big problem. But like those, you don't *have* to use them, hence my support; they are nice things to have. In a way I can't see why this even goes to a vote since I can't think of much of a reason, beyond finding user preferences, why this can't all be done in a template. [[User:SimonTrew|SimonTrew]] ([[User talk:SimonTrew|talk]]) 01:46, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
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All '''Support''' entries that are founded on reader choice should be disregarded when finalizing the findings of this RfC. What reader choice? The reader gets the site default, or the contributing editor's choice. Remember that registered users = subset of editors, and in turn editors are a tiny subset of readers. All '''Support''' users who clamor that the reader need only ''edit'' a setting should be deliberateley ignored by the rest of the community for a period no shorter than the time it takes defeat any and all proposals in support for auto-formatting. --[[User:Karbinski|Karbinski]] ([[User talk:Karbinski|talk]]) 21:38, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
:Sorry, but that's not valid. There is no requirement that you must edit if you register; anyone - '''anyone''' - can register an account, and if they choose to use that account to read only, so be it. Accounts can be useful to readers who wish to use the gadgets, the watchlist, different skins, and so on. --'''[[User:Ckatz|Ckatz]]'''''<small><sup>[[User_talk:Ckatz|<
:: Sorry about that, but if we leave out the middle, it is correct: Remember registered users are a tiny subset of readers. Not that it has bearing, but registered users are also a subset of editors. [[User:Karbinski|Karbinski]] ([[User talk:Karbinski|talk]]) 21:57, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
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*To the users who cited metadata as a reason for needing autoformatting, can someone provide examples of how this metadata could be used? [[User:Dabomb87|Dabomb87]] ([[User talk:Dabomb87|talk]]) 02:16, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
:Other than imposing a site-wide single format, as the developers have suggested, how do you propose to ensure all articles are consistent with one another? Either we go to a single standard, or we persist with the first-past-the-post "this is American no it's international" methodology. If the latter is the case, it is only prudent to provide some method of presenting a uniform, consistent look. --'''[[User:Ckatz|Ckatz]]'''''<small><sup>[[User_talk:Ckatz|<
::Sorry, I'll be more clear. I edited my above post. [[User:Dabomb87|Dabomb87]] ([[User talk:Dabomb87|talk]]) 12:47, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
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:Only a few of these comments make arguments against based on issues other than linking. The '''vast''' majority of the ones I've cited base their given explanation soley on the linking proposal. [[User:Shadowjams|Shadowjams]] ([[User talk:Shadowjams|talk]]) 01:20, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
::(1) Voters are under no obligation to provide all of their inner reasoning. Are you objecting to those who provided no comment? (2) It is no surprise that many people still refer to the concept of date autoformatting at "linking"—that has been the vernacular term for the concept for some five years. (2) There is reference to "the links" in the ''Statement for'' the concept of autoformatting, and to "new features" such as "database dumps" that would, of course, require a feature for editors to identify autoformatted dates as links. Why ''wouldn't'' some voters use the common synonym "linking" to refer to the concept of autoformatting. [[User:Tony1|<
:::Because it's a poll and not a vote, reasoning is instructive as to the actual proposal's support. Even the most adamant opponent should not ''want'' people to be misinformed about the nature of the proposal (or if they did, they could never vocalize it), and should be disturbed when there's evidence a number of users are confused.
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*''Sleeping on this, I think I made this comment too quickly.
That looks to me like a retraction. [[User:Lightmouse|Lightmouse]] ([[User talk:Lightmouse|talk]]) 18:06, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
:Yes, it was. <font face="Trebuchet MS"><b>— [[User:Neurolysis|<
'''Make the server do it while assembling the page'''. Why are human editors concerned with this question? Why can't we make the server search for dates in the text and then reformat them for the viewer based on their preference? The server already changes <b><nowiki><br>, </br> and <br/> to <br /></nowiki></b> without anyone ever noticing. I think dates should be the same; that editors should just type a date and the server will handle how it's served up. There's no reason why bots or humans should have to go through articles and apply templates or formatting. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet|talk]]) 15:39, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
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::::* My original point was that "auto-formatting ''can'' - contrary to the suggestions above - be of benefit to unregistered editors"; nothing said to date has changed that. It may well be that, as a community, we decide that unregistered readers see date as unformatted - that, then, will be our choice. My point is that autoformatting ''does'' give us that choice, despite claims to the contrary. Turning to your evidence, in Scotland [http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/latestnews/Quiet-smouldering-fury-of-RBS.5141754.jp one newspaper] uses DD MMM YYYY and [http://theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.2499837.0.Sir_Fred_rebuked_for_failing_to_return_pension.php the other] uses MMM DD YYYY (with no comma - first time I've seen that): I don't believe that this - or that the evidence you've presented - says anything other than ''newspapers'' use a variety of different styles. Surely the key thing here is what ''people'' are taught at school, use in their daily lives, and recognise in correspondence from government? If you wish, I'll try and dig our references supporting my belief that DD MMM YYYY is taught in schools in the UK, New Zealand and Singapore (countries in which I experienced education at some level) in preference over MMM DD, YYYY, that this format is used by the governments of those countries, and that people tend to use that format more as a result - and I dare-say that other editors can provide references for other countries. However you're asking for evidence that MMM DD, YYYY is ''not'' a perfectly acceptable format - which no one, so far as I can see, is suggesting. Of course people more familiar with DD MMM YYYY recognise and understand MMM DD, YYYY, and it's ludicrous to suggest otherwise. This is about ''preference'', not about ''acceptability''. My preference is for YYYY-MM-DD, and I'd like a system where that preference can be catered for. My preference in no way affects my ability to ''accept'' or ''understand'' MMM DD, YYYY or DD MMM YYYY. Your evidence shows that people can ''accept'' or ''understand'' MMM DD, YYYY simultaneously with DD MMM YYYY - which comes as no surprise to me - however I do not believe it shows anything beyond that. Cheers, [[User:This flag once was red|<b style="color:#000">This flag once was red</b>]]<sup>[[User talk:This flag once was red|<span style="color:#f00">propaganda</span>]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/This flag once was red|deeds]]</sub> 11:02, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
(''In response to neutral vote # 14'') Actually, there lies a significant problem: a not-inconsiderable proportion of dates are wrongly input (Sept 4, for example, or your example), and the proposed system would need to be programmed to fix each individual possibility. Another reason, I believe, that we should not mess with editors' control over simple fixed-text dates. [[User:Tony1|<
: <nowiki>{{#formatdate:Sept 4, 2007|dmy}}</nowiki> produces "{{#formatdate:Sept 4, 2007|dmy}}". I don't see how that makes anything worse than it would be if an editor simply typed in an incorrectly written date without the autoformatting code. I voted "neutral" because it seems to me that the autoformatting question really contains two hidden subquestions: (1) should we ''permit'' use of #formatdate, and (2) should we ''require'' (or encourage or recommend, etc.) its use? I would vote "yes" to the first and "no" to the second; therefore neutral on the combined question. I do recognize that some people complain about having to wade through additional markup code when editing, but I personally don't see that as a big problem. And, on the other side, I recognize that some people seem to think it is important that every date in every article be viewable in the same format, but again I don't see that as a huge problem when we allow (and affirmatively endorse) such inconsistencies as American and British spellings and some other usages that vary from one article to the next. --[[User:R'n'B|R'n'B]] ([[User talk:R'n'B|call me]] Russ) 12:17, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
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'''Statement for is biased and fallacious: creative content is not a “user interface”'''
[[#Statement for]] betrays the wrong attitude that readers and editors are “users”, and that my creative contribution, protected by the <del>GPL</del> <ins>GFDL</ins>, is a “user interface” which should be rewritten by a machine to support “user preferences”. “Personalized date formats in operating systems” don't rewrite the books you are reading or correct the language in music you listen to. This explanation is biased and fallacious, and is misleading editors who read it and vote. ''—[[User:Mzajac |Michael]] [[User talk:Mzajac |Z.]] <small>2009-04-11 16:41 z</small>''
: "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed for profit by others, do not submit it." No mention of "machines" being excluded from the aforementioned editing is there? --[[User:WebHamster|'''<
:Also note content here is under the GFDL, not the GPL. [[User:Fletcher|Fletcher]] ([[User talk:Fletcher|talk]]) 17:14, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
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