Module talk:Sports table/Archive 1: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 05:19, 28 December 2018

Revision as of 05:29, 29 December 2018

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I have merged [[Module:Sports table/WL]] into [[Module:Sports table/WDL]] and turned [[Module:Sports table/WL]] into a wrapper for [[Module:Sports table/WDL]]. this should have zero impact on existing uses and will make these modules easier to maintain since there is far less code duplication. I already did the same for [[Module:Sports table/WLHA]] (wrapper for [[Module:Sports table/WDLHA]] ) and [[Module:Sports table/WL OT]] (wrapper for [[Module:Sports table/WDL OT]]). I will be watching for script errors, but please let me know if you see any problems. [[User:Frietjes|Frietjes]] ([[User talk:Frietjes|talk]]) 16:11, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

== Optional extra columns ==

{{ping|Frietjes}}To keep you busy. There are 2 parameters which affect the number of "points (Pts)". These parameters are "startpoints_XXX" and "adjust_points_XXX". They both work as they should. However if they're used to define a table, it's not visible just like that, that they have been used. Here are 2 examples:

* [[2016–17 Eredivisie (women)#Championship|2016–17 Eredivisie women championship]]: Without a comment in front of the table, it's not clear what the number of points for each team is based on. Compare the same table on the Dutch Wiki [[:nl: Eredivisie 2016/17 (vrouwenvoetbal)#Kampioensgroep|Eredivisie 2016/17 vrouwen Kampioensgroep]]

* [[2017–18 Tweede Divisie#League standings|2017–18 Tweede Divisie standings]]: Without the note, it's not clear what the number of points for [[Achilles '29]] is based on. Compare the same table on the Dutch Wiki [[:nl: Tweede divisie 2017/18#Eindstand|Tweede divisie 2017/18 Eindstand]]

On the Dutch Wiki, the module "Sports table" is not used but the tables are defined in the old fashioned way. But, on the Dutch Wiki, because of the extra column, in both scenario's is more clear what the number of points is based on.

Therefore it would be nice, if there would be parameters to add extra columns to the table for these scenario's. Something like "startpoints_column=(y/n)" and "adjust_points_column=(y/n)". The default for both should be "n". You can discuss whether it should be 2 separate columns or a single combined column if both scenario's occur at the same time. My preference would be 2 separate columns. Also, especially for the adjust_points column, it should be possible to define the header value/strings. Mostly it will deal with penalty points, but maybe in some sports it could be bonus points. Also, again especially for the adjust_points column, teams for which this value is not set, the cell should be left blank and not filled with a "0" (zero). --[[User:Sb008|Sb008]] ([[User talk:Sb008|talk]]) 23:54, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

*'''Oppose'''{{ping|Sb008}} You should discuss this proposal on [[WT:FOOTY]] first. This is a major change [[User:Hhkohh|Hhkohh]] ([[User talk:Hhkohh|talk]]) 09:37, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

*:You just add notes to tell readers about these. No more extra columns should be added unless there is a consensus in [[WT:FOOTY]]. The current style works well [[User:Hhkohh|Hhkohh]] ([[User talk:Hhkohh|talk]]) 09:50, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

*::{{re|Sb008}} For the second example, this is typically mentioned using a note, for example see the bottom two clubs in [[Template:2017–18 3. Liga table]]. The first example is quite strange given the points are halved, though adding a column may add to the confusion. [[User:S.A. Julio|S.A. Julio]] ([[User talk:S.A. Julio#top|talk]]) 10:15, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

*:::note that there is a {{para|show_bonus_points}} which is by default no. however, it makes no distinction between adjust_points and start_points. [[User:Frietjes|Frietjes]] ([[User talk:Frietjes|talk]]) 12:50, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

*::::You just add [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2016%E2%80%9317_Eredivisie_(women)&diff=861439598&oldid=841398921 like this edit], clearly not needed adding extra columns [[User:Hhkohh|Hhkohh]] ([[User talk:Hhkohh|talk]]) 13:07, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

*:::::{{ping|Frietjes}} Can we set custom name for bonus points header? [[User:Hhkohh|Hhkohh]] ([[User talk:Hhkohh|talk]]) 13:15, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

*::::::shouldn't be hard to add. [[User:Frietjes|Frietjes]] ([[User talk:Frietjes|talk]]) 14:45, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

{{outdent|:::::::}} {{ping|Frietjes|Hhkohh}} First of all, somehow I overlooked {{para|show_bonus_points}}. It fills some of my needs, however:

* A custom header name would be desirable (as mentioned should be easy to fix)

* If both {{para|startpoints_XXX}} and {{para|adjust_points_XXX}} are used for a team, adjust_points_XXX overrules startpoints_XXX completely. ("local s_pts = tonumber(Args['adjust_points_'..team_code_ii]) or tonumber(Args['startpoints_'..team_code_ii]) or 0" First "or" case sets the value). Should be easy to fix as well.

* If the "bonus" column is used, and adjust/start points is set for e.g. just 1 or 2 teams, the value for all other teams in the bonus column will be "0" (zero). I would prefer "blank" unless explicitly set to "0".

* Still would prefer the option to have 2 separate columns if both start and adjust points is used.

* Last, I don't consider this a major change since these columns are optional and therefore none of the existing tables are affected.

--[[User:Sb008|Sb008]] ([[User talk:Sb008|talk]]) 22:28, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

:{{ping|Sb008}} I want to oppose your second proposal because blank will confuse to readers, they cannot know whether the points is 0 or author forget to write it or we cannot find this kind of information. But I support others [[User:Hhkohh|Hhkohh]] ([[User talk:Hhkohh|talk]]) 08:11, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

::{{ping|Hhkohh}} I would say it's exactly the opposite. The context makes it very clear whether indeed a blank or a zero is meant. On the other hand, a column with 17 0's in it and only 1 number is confusing because you have to search for that number. Let's look at the 2 possibilities again:

::* Startpoints: The cases I know, all teams receive them. In the case of Dutch women's football the starting points in the second round are half the points achieved in the first round. So if a team got 0 pts in the 1st round, it means half of 0 is 0 starting points in the 2nd round. The number of starting points for each team is '''defined'''. If it happens to be 0, it should be shown as 0. As we can see here [[2017–18 Eredivisie (women)#Placement|2017–18 Eredivisie women Placement]] for [[SBV Excelsior (women)|Excelsior/Barendrecht]]. And starting points don't only occur in Dutch women's football, also e.g. in Belgian men's football and handball.

::* Adjust points: If adjust points is used when teams are given penalty points, in general only 1 or 2 teams received penalty points. The other teams are given '''none'''. They are '''not''' given '''0'''. For those teams the value is '''undefined'''. Have a look here: [[:nl: Derde divisie 2017/18#Ranglijst 2|Derde divisie 2017/18 Ranglijst]]. To put a 0 in the penalty points column for all teams except [[OFC_Oostzaan|OFC]] not only looks terrible but will cause more confusion than blanks because the "-1" becomes a lot less visible.

::All in all, a blank if undefined and a 0 if defined as such. Quite common way to do it. --[[User:Sb008|Sb008]] ([[User talk:Sb008|talk]]) 14:31, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

:::{{u|Sb008}} I cannot see the article called [[:nl: Derde divisie 2017/18#Ranglijst 2|Derde divisie 2017/18 Ranglijst]], please fix it [[User:Hhkohh|Hhkohh]] ([[User talk:Hhkohh|talk]]) 14:40, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

::::{{ping|Hhkohh}} Fixed

:::::{{u|Sb008}} okay, I see. Now I think it is better that when using startpoints, it should not blank it, but using adjust points, it can blank it because we must write startpoints to tell how many points they are even they are 0 point started while adjust points can allow us to write how much the team will be punished or bonus and not all teams need writing on [[User:Hhkohh|Hhkohh]] ([[User talk:Hhkohh|talk]]) 15:28, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

::::::{{u|Sb008}} If you support my idea, just let {{u|Frietjes}} to work on it [[User:Hhkohh|Hhkohh]] ([[User talk:Hhkohh|talk]]) 15:35, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

{{outdent|::::::}} {{ping|Hhkohh}} Isn't that exactly what I'm saying from the start? In the adjust point (penalty point) scenario the table cell is left blank whenever the parameter is '''undefined''' (In the code there's '''no''' line "<s>adjust_points_XXX=</s>"). In the startpoint scenario a 0 is placed in the table cell because I '''define''' the value as 0 (In the code there '''is''' a line saying "startpoints_XXX=0"). Blank unless specifically defined as 0. --[[User:Sb008|Sb008]] ([[User talk:Sb008|talk]]) 16:45, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

:Aren't this what notes are for? Why add a column where only one team has an entry? You'd never see such a table in the newspaper. -[[User:Koppapa|Koppapa]] ([[User talk:Koppapa|talk]]) 11:59, 29 September 2018 (UTC)