Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request/Archive 115: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 13:00, 5 October 2021

Revision as of 04:47, 6 October 2021

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:{{re|Neutrality}} {{sent}} via email. [[User:DanCherek|DanCherek]] ([[User talk:DanCherek|talk]]) 03:31, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

:: * Thanks! {{tl|Resolved}} [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality]]^{[[User talk:Neutrality|talk]]} 03:33, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

== Need a reference for this quotation by Philippe Pétain ==

:''The French discussion [[:fr:WP:VB#Lormier (2019) pour verifier une citation de Petain]] links here''

Looking for a solid citation for this quotation by [[Philippe Pétain]]: « je suis et demeure moralement votre chef» ("I am and remain morally your leader.")

Tried all the usual places (and some unusual ones). Beware of seemingly easy solutions from Google books; [[Talk:Philippe Pétain#Unverified 'I am your leader' quotation removed|this discussion]] explains why three sources easily available in Google books may not be acceptable. One of them (listed below) cites footnote "24" as the source for this quotation, and if you have access to this specific book and can identify what footnote 24 refers to, that may lead us to a solution. The best source I know for French archival material is BNF/Gallica, and they [https://catalogue.bnf.fr/rechercher.do?motRecherche=je+suis+et+demeure+moralement+votre+chef&critereRecherche=0&depart=0&facetteModifiee=ok show nothing] for this quotation. [[Talk:Philippe Pétain#Unverified 'I am your leader' quotation removed|This discussion]] lists six sources which might help, if anyone has access to them.

{{refbegin}}

* {{cite book |lang=fr |last1=Lormier |first1=Dominique |title=Les vérités cachées de la Seconde Guerre |trans-title=Hidden Truths of the Second World War |date=2019 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=UfGYDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT117 |page= |___location=Monaco |publisher=Editions du Rocher |isbn=978-2-268-10190-3 |oclc=1104328730 |access-date=1 October 2021 |quote=<!--accents dropped-->''Petain cede finalement a la demande allemande. Le 20 aout 1944, il est emmene contre son gre par les Nazis a Belfort puis, le 8 septembre, a Sigmaringen en Allemagne, ou se sont egalement refugie les dignataires vichyste. Plutot que se demissioner, malgre les injonctions de Laval, Petain entretient dans une lettre aux Francais la fiction selon laquelle « je suis et demeure moralement votre chef».''²⁴ Petain finally gave in to the German demand. On August 20, 1944, he was taken against his will by the Nazis to Belfort and then, on September 8, to Sigmaringen, Germany, where Vichy officials had also taken refuge. Rather than resigning, despite Laval's urging to do so, Petain maintained in a letter to the French the illusion that 'I am, and remain morally your leader.'²⁴}}

{{refend}}

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For articles: [[Philippe Pétain]], [[Sigmaringen enclave]], [[Government of Vichy France]], and [[Liberation of France]].

Thanks, [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 04:01, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

:Probably not that helpful, but from Google Books I was able to see that footnote 24 reads "Archives nationales, Paris." [[User:DanCherek|DanCherek]] ([[User talk:DanCherek|talk]]) 05:18, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

:: {{re|DanCherek}}, thanks. True, that's rather vague; but it's a bit helpful, and also reminds me that different users sometimes get to see different snippet windows into the partial preview mode of Google books, as I didn't see what you did (sometimes even the same user at different times), so perhaps someone else will see a bit more than we have.

:: An interesting sidebar, or perhaps sideshow of this whole thing, is that there's a bit of mystery and intrigue behind all this. French historian Dominique Lormier who wrote that vague footnote has been previously accused of plagiarism by a consortium of French historians (see [[:fr:Dominique Lormier#Polémiques|fr:Dominique Lormier]]; auto-translation [https://fr-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Dominique_Lormier?_x_tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=nui#Pol%C3%A9miques here]) which just thickens the plot. It's a rather striking, even iconic quotation, really (reminds me of ''[[Louis_XIV#Quotes|L'etat, c'est moi]]''), and if authenticated, would be the kind of thing that would end up in books of memorable quotations by important figures, and Lormier would be the one most likely to be cited for it.

:: And yet, before French user {{userxx|fr|83.113.203.32}} came along in 2006, nobody seems to have heard of it. Is it possible Lormier *thought* he knew this Pétain quote by heart, maybe he had scanned Wikipedia years before for fun or to make sure he wasn't missing something, forgot about it, and then innocently added the quotation to two books of his a dozen years later without having a solid citation in front of him so simply added that vague reference to ''Archives Nationales'' instead? Was he just being sloppy? Maybe the quotation really exists, but if so, why is it so hard to find? Quotation detectives, start your engines! [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 18:05, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

::: Hello {{reply to|Mathglot}}. Dominique Lormier ([[:fr:Dominique Lormier]]) cannot be considered as a serious historian. He often gives ''archives nationales, Paris'' or ''Archives fédérales, Berlin'' instead of using true references. That quotation should be removed if there is no other source where it could be found. --[[User:Le Petit Chat|Le Petit Chat]] ([[User talk:Le Petit Chat|talk]]) 21:38, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

:::: Thanks, [[User:Le Petit Chat|Le Petit Chat]]. I was wondering about that. I've removed the quotation from the four articles in en-wiki where it occurred, and probably I'll have to take a stand at fr-wiki as well, and advocate for removing the quotation from there as well. The IP editor who originally added the information to the French article in 2006 never used a single reference for any of his edits during his wikipedia career, which maybe wasn't that unusual in 2006, but nevertheless, probably all of his edits need to be looked at again. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 00:45, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

{{tl|Resolved}}I think we can declare this one '''resolved'''. Should some future investigation ever turn up a legitimate source for this and you happen to be reading this in some dusty archive, please ping the list of contributors here. Thanks everyone for your help! [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 20:25, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

== Need access to Taylor & Francis ==

<!-- Brief citation of the requested materials. -->

{{refbegin}}

* {{cite journal |ref=none |no-tracking=yes<!-- prevents error categorization --> |last=Gagiano |first=Annie |title=Getting under the Skin of Power: The Novels of Unity Dow |url=https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10131750485310061a |doi=10.1080/10131750485310061a |journal=The English Academy Review |date=December 2004 |volume=21 |issue=1 |publisher=[[Routledge]] for the English Academy of Southern Africa |___location=London |pages=36-50 |access-date= |isbn= |issn=1753-5360 |oclc=774628407}}

{{refend}}

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For [[Unity Dow]]. I find other listings of the source; however all of them link back to Taylor & Francis, which I cannot access.

Thanks, [[User:SusunW|SusunW]] ([[User talk:SusunW|talk]]) 17:11, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

:{{ping|SusunW}} {{sent}} (from Taylor & Francis Journals). —[[User:Bruce1ee|Bruce1ee]]^{[[User talk:Bruce1ee|''talk'']]} 17:14, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

::You are amazing {{u|Bruce1ee}}! Thank you so much. {{tl|resolved}} [[User:SusunW|SusunW]] ([[User talk:SusunW|talk]]) 17:22, 5 October 2021 (UTC)