Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Data tables tutorial: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 05:20, 10 October 2021

Revision as of 06:33, 10 December 2021

Line 376:

::Again, I emphasise that I'm completely ignorant about table formatting. I'm sure that tests the patience of regulars here, but I would like to get to the bottom of it if possible. [[MOS:CHARTS]] says "The chart positions should be organized into one table, and the table should be formatted using <code>class="wikitable sortable"</code>." Well, that was already in place before the recent changes at one or two album articles I watch; it seems to have been the introduction of these plainrowheaders that creates the darker grey background. [[User:JG66|JG66]] ([[User talk:JG66|talk]]) 03:25, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

:::{{u|JG66}}. No dig intended. I deleted my first answer. Here is my second answer. See:

:::No dig intended. I found '''[https://www.freedomscientific.com/SurfsUp/Tables.htm this JAWS article]''' ("Tables with JAWS" by '''[[Freedom Scientific]]''') as a reference here:

:::'''[https://www.w3.org/TR/2008/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20081211/H63.html H63: Using the scope attribute to associate header cells and data cells in data tables | Techniques for WCAG 2.0].''' It says:

:::[[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility#Data tables]]

:::"Note: For simple tables that have the headers in the first row or column then it is sufficient to simply use the TH elements without scope."

:::But it is being misinterpreted in my opinion.

:::See: '''[https://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/tables Tables Concepts &bull; Tables &bull; WAI Web Accessibility Tutorials].''' It says:

:::From what I read in that article the '''[[JAWS (screen reader)|JAWS]]''' screen reader nowadays can handle almost any table that is thrown at it.

:::"Tables with one header for rows or columns: For tables with content that is easy to distinguish, mark up header cells with <th> and data cells with <td> elements."

:::Some of the stuff in the data tables section of [[MOS:ACCESS]], and in the Data tables tutorial, was written when the 2 main screen readers were much less capable.

:::But when you go to the fine print it says "For tables with unclear header directions, define the direction of each header by setting the scope attribute to col or row."

:::JAWS nowadays can deal with tables that only have column headers. That is what the article says.

:::I think most tables on Wikipedia do not have unclear header directions. The column headers are on the top. The row headers are on the left.

:::JAWS can see the HTML for table headers just fine: <nowiki><th></nowiki>

:::'''[https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H51.html H51: Using table markup to present tabular information | Techniques for WCAG 2.0].''' "Simple tables generally have only one level of headers for columns and/or one level of headers on the rows." Example 1 is definitive as far as I am concerned. There is no requirement for scopes on such simple tables.

:::It can see tables with just column headers. Almost all tables on Wikipedia have column headers using <nowiki><th></nowiki> in the HTML.

:::I did some tests awhile back that confirmed this:

:::From what I am reading in that article the scope tags are unnecessary nowadays. And row headers (even via just <nowiki><th></nowiki>) are also unnecessary. JAWS can deal with that.

:::[[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Data tables tutorial#Comparing tables with and without scope=col and scope=row]]. Please ignore the heated tone of some of the discussion. I apologize for my part in the heated tone.

:::So from what I am reading almost all tables on Wikipedia are fine.

:::Getting to your questions. I don't see the need for designating row headers in the 2 column table examples you gave. Screen readers will read the column header for each data cell. It will be obvious to the user what the relationship is between the the 2 cells in each row, even without row headers. And scopes are total overkill in that example.

:::What I am less sure about are multi-row column headers. The article is unclear as to whether JAWS can handle those without scope tags. See an example at the end of the article.

:::--[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 0506:2033, 10 OctoberDecember 2021 (UTC)

:::One thing I always try to do is to add good descriptive captions to tables. The article indicates that JAWS can navigate a tables list using captions.

:::--[[User:Timeshifter|'''Timeshifter''']] ([[User talk:Timeshifter|talk]]) 05:20, 10 October 2021 (UTC)