Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Skepticism and coordinated editing/Proposed decision: Difference between revisions
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:What we are looking at is exclusionary policies which create biases. Now, there are some natural ones, such as geographical, or by interest - but if, say, I wanted to join your group, despite only not going to NYC in three decades, would you say no? Would you even ask my ___location on sign up? That's what we are getting at. [[User:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#000;">''Worm''</b>]]<sup>TT</sup>([[User talk:Worm That Turned|<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>]]) 08:50, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
::{{ping|L235|Worm That Turned}} Thanks for clarifying. I did indeed misunderstand. Makes me wonder why it says "...norms regarding ''transparency''...encourage that group's membership to be open". The ability to ''join'' may be in line with "open community" but doesn't achieve "transparency" except insofar as it's still a problem. "Group" is still incredibly broad, and "join" is ambiguous. "Groups" very often involve off-wiki identities. Saying that those groups must allow anyone to join means allowing anyone to determine the off-wiki identity of the people who attend. That's in some ways worse than requiring the group disclose a list of members. Throughout the GSoW discussions, it sure seems like a bunch of people have wanted to join ''so that'' they can discover the names/usernames of existing members, for example. I've never been involved with GSoW, but I have been involved with some "groups" that have not been open to the public. Sometimes this is just because it's an event run by a specific organization, a school club, for attendees of an academic conference, in a classroom, an informal "group" of friends who happen to be Wikimedians and might discuss Wikipedia, or, still the most important example, members of a vulnerable community wary of their identities being released. Most of the time, but not all, the ''activities'' of that group (if there are any) are collected in a Dashboard page and so are transparent at least in that way, but as long as off-wiki identities are involved, I'm extremely skeptical of chasing very broadly defined "transparency" on-wiki. Skeptics are not, IMO, a vulnerable group in most places (some may dispute that), but the rule you're creating here doesn't just apply to GSoW -- it would apply to everyone.
::WikiNYC is perhaps a bad example now. Our events are almost all open to the public. So yes, you're welcome to come (FYI: [[Wikipedia:Meetup/NYC]] for the next one :) ). But if I were running an event that were for/about a vulnerable population, for example, there are people who are in "good standing" in the community that I wouldn't want to invite. Again, GSoW isn't what I'd call a vulnerable population, but just in this case there are new users in good standing who seem to spend much of their time going after GSoW, trying to delete articles related to skepticism, etc. That's not to say there aren't aspects of GSoW that should give us pause, or that this isn't a more complicated case than I'm making it out to be, but according to this principle that person must be allowed access to GSoW meetings. At the end of the day, there are plenty of good privacy reasons a group may want control over its own membership or attendance of its events. It's a big deal to say all of those reasons conflict with wikipolicy/norms. — <samp>[[User:Rhododendrites|<span style="font-size:90%;letter-spacing:1px;text-shadow:0px -1px 0px Indigo;">Rhododendrites</span>]] <sup style="font-size:80%;">[[User_talk:Rhododendrites|talk]]</sup></samp> \\ 15:02, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
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