Talk:Oracle bone script: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 13:33, 19 February 2021

Revision as of 16:03, 2 February 2023

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*'''Oppose'''. I agree with the above contributor. They should be kept separate. Oracle Bone is a general article about the objects and their discovery. The Oracle Bone Script article deals with textual information derived from the inscriptions such as character form, meaning, syntax, grammar and language related content (or ought to if someone were to write about it more). <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Dylanwhs|Dylanwhs]] ([[User talk:Dylanwhs|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dylanwhs|contribs]]) 23:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

*'''Oppose''' - You wouldn't merge [[cuneiform script]] with [[clay tablet]]s. --[[User:PalaceGuard008|PalaceGuard008]] ([[User_Talk:PalaceGuard008|Talk]]) 05:01, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

*'''Oppose'''. Plus, the written language system of the Oracle Bone Script is a separate issue compared to oracle bones that were used for a specific purpose in [[divination]] ceremonies by the Shang kings and priests.--<strong>[[User:PericlesofAthens|<fontspan colorstyle="color:blue;">Pericles of Athens</fontspan>]]</strong>^{[[User talk:PericlesofAthens|<fontspan colorstyle="color:#0000CD;">Talk</fontspan>]]} 15:20, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' The script is distinct from the use of bones for divination, which may or may not have inscriptions. If the two articles seem basically similar then it is a fault with at least one of the articles. The two articles should be improved not merged. Moreover, as Oracle Bone script is ready to be proposed for encoding in Unicode it is important that there is a separate article that discusses the script.[[User:BabelStone|BabelStone]] ([[User talk:BabelStone|talk]]) 08:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

*'''Oppose'''. It is a fault with both articles; the oracle bones article needs to be just about their discovery and use in divination, with only the briefest mention of the script on them and a link to that article; the oracle bone script page needs to be just about the script on them, as Dylanwhs states. There's a lot of development needed on the script page. In the next several years I'm sure I will contribute to both when I get time; in the meantime if someone can do the paring down of each of them, moving info to the other page as needed, it would be wonderful. [[User:Dragonbones|Dragonbones]] ([[User talk:Dragonbones|talk]]) 11:28, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

*I'm working on the cleanup now.[[User:Dragonbones|Dragonbones]] ([[User talk:Dragonbones|talk]]) 06:09, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

*Done. I've removed content about the bone types so the article is more about just the script. Due to this and the overwhelming consensus opposing the suggestion to merge, I suggest removing the tag for the proposal.[[User:Dragonbones|Dragonbones]] ([[User talk:Dragonbones|talk]]) 08:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

::Great work, Dragonbones! I second that; the majority of people are only going to oppose this merger.--<strong>[[User:PericlesofAthens|<fontspan colorstyle="color:blue;">Pericles of Athens</fontspan>]]</strong>^{[[User talk:PericlesofAthens|<fontspan colorstyle="color:#0000CD;">Talk</fontspan>]]} 08:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

:::Ok, that seems like consensus to me, so I'm removing the tag for now. I'm still working on both pages, btw; I'll bear in mind their separation.[[User:Dragonbones|Dragonbones]] ([[User talk:Dragonbones|talk]]) 14:56, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

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Personally, I think that a single graph from a pre-Shang layer, when there is no other evidence of pre-Shang OB, implies disturbance of the layers just as readily as it implies pre-Shang OB writing, but of course the latter is possible too, given that there are textual references to Xia writing. Whatever we do with this kind of info, I do hope we remain cautious and yet fair in its presentation.[[User:Dragonbones|Dragonbones]] ([[User talk:Dragonbones|talk]]) 14:51, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

::Yes, taking caution is certainly necessary. Good job finding those references. It will, however, take a multifaceted scholarly view to gain a full picture about the earliest evidence of Oracle Bone Script. If you could find a scholar who is of the strong opinion that there was a disturbance of the layers during the dig, then including that with the information you quoted above would be perfect.--<strong>[[User:PericlesofAthens|<fontspan colorstyle="color:blue;">Pericles of Athens</fontspan>]]</strong>^{[[User talk:PericlesofAthens|<fontspan colorstyle="color:#0000CD;">Talk</fontspan>]]} 15:29, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

:::Good point; I wasn't planning on incorporating my own suspicion without backup. Actually Qiu is is razor sharp and full of healthy skepticism, and he didn't mention disturbance. But it's hard to find good sources on this kind of stuff -- including discussions of why that layer is thought to be pre-Shang, and what, then, that layer IS. There are plenty of scholars who believe there MUST HAVE BEEN such writing in early Shang times or even those immediately preceding the early Shang, so perhaps I shouldn't be quite so skeptical, LOL. Anyway, I've found some more references to those two bones now, in Keightley and Woon, so it's off to the Academia Sinica library again. Woohoo! Does anyone else have these books? They're quite worthwhile![[User:Dragonbones|Dragonbones]] ([[User talk:Dragonbones|talk]]) 02:16, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

::::[[Chinese calligraphy#Evolution and styles]] does mention material from Zhengzhou from the middle Shang period, though not on oracle bones, but ''painted'' on ceramics, and it is said to consist mostly of single characters. There is a ref there, but I cannot tell if this is reliable as I don't read Chinese and this is not my field of expertise anyway. --[[User:Florian Blaschke|Florian Blaschke]] ([[User talk:Florian Blaschke|talk]]) 06:04, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

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== Discussion of Example Characters ==

The 'mourning' character which is given as an example is DEFINITELY not an oracle bone graph so I am removing it. First, I looked up sang1 喪 in my oracle bones book by Zhao Cheng and found (p. 334) 桑 being used as a loan to mean mourn, but the form is quite different from the example given on the OBS page. I checked another OB dictionary and got the same result so did some searching, and suspect that someone built a CGI/SVG based on Richard Sears's bronze exemplar b01725 but then uploaded it incorrectly as an oracle bone graph (if so, it is an error by the CGI/SVG builder/uploader, and I assume that the linkage to this page was thus an innocent mistake). Not only is it not OB, it is not even representative W. Zhou bronze! it's a variant form AFAIK. The typical OB to mid Zhou forms have branching tree images with 3 to 6 口 added, not 止 added, and the bottom is normally a triple root. Here is a better facsimile of 合集1083 oracle bone graph of sang1 'mourn' and 'mulberry': http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/2467/sang1mournheji1083lk1.jpg. As for the incorrect example on the page now, after a search of bronze archives, I have found the source: it is from the 小臣鼎(昜鼎) vessel, AcSin catalogue number 02678 西周中期 '''Middle Western Zhou bronze'''. I would reproduce the rubbing here for you but don't have permission, sorry. If someone has time to build some SVG please be sure to get a real OB rubbing or photo to base it on. Thanks![[User:Dragonbones|Dragonbones]] ([[User talk:Dragonbones|talk]]) 15:06, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

::Well, I'm glad that I brought the picture of the character to light, because it has been proven as a fraud. Nice catch, Dragonbones. It's good to know that there is a professional at work.--<strong>[[User:PericlesofAthens|<fontspan colorstyle="color:blue;">Pericles of Athens</fontspan>]]</strong>^{[[User talk:PericlesofAthens|<fontspan colorstyle="color:#0000CD;">Talk</fontspan>]]} 16:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

==Pinyin != English==