Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Text formatting/Archive 8: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 03:34, 21 February 2023

Revision as of 03:43, 4 August 2023

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I have opened an [[WP:RfC|RfC]] at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biology#RfC on boldfacing of scientific names in articles about organisms]]. The discussion should take place there, not here, in order to keep the discussion centralized. The result may affect [[MOS:BOLD]]. —⁠ ⁠[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 01:46, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

== Private Use characters usage ==

About [[Klingon scripts]], see talk:{{slink|Talk:Klingon_scripts|Does_this_article_need_to_include_private-use_characters?|nopage=yes}}. The script is not defined in Unicode, but has Private Use designations. Question is whether this wiki can use these (requiring supporting font) in that article. Discuss over there please. [[User:DePiep|DePiep]] ([[User talk:DePiep|talk]]) 12:10, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

== MOS:BADITALICS vs WP:SHIPNAME ==

This page states:

{{tq2|'''Text in non-Latin scripts''' (such as [[Greek alphabet|Greek]], [[Cyrillic alphabet|Cyrillic]] or [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/China-related articles#Characters|Chinese]]) '''should neither be italicized as non-English nor bolded''', even where this is technically feasible; the difference of script suffices to distinguish it on the page. However, [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Titles#Italics|titles of major works that should be italicized]] are italicized in scripts that support that feature (including Latin, Greek and Cyrillic); [...]}}

whereas [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ships)#Using ship names in articles|WP:SHIPNAME]] states:

{{tq2|A ship's name is always italicized.}}

Now, my question is, does BADITALICS overrule SHIPNAME? For a Russian ship, should the native name be in ordinary type? My initial assessment is "yes". However, I can also see some validity in the opposite: ship names could fall under the same italicization category as "titles of major works", in that the overriding convention is to italicize when the script allows it. I've seen both situations in use:

{{tq2|'''''Moskva''''' ({{lang-ru|links=no|Москва|lit=Moscow}}, {{IPA-ru|mɐskˈva|}}), formerly '''''Slava''''' ({{lang-ru|label=none|links=no|Слава|lit=Glory}}) was a [[guided missile cruiser]] of the [[Russian Navy]].}}

but

{{tq2|'''Russian cruiser ''Varyag''''' ({{lang-ru|Варяг|italic=yes|lit=[[Varangian]]}}) (formerly-''Chervona Ukraina''), is the third ship of the {{sclass2|Slava|cruiser|0}} of guided missile cruisers [...]}}

The latter explicitly sets <code>italic=yes</code> in the {{template|lang-ru}} template it uses. A {{em|very}} quick survey I did just now shows that not-italicizing is more common, but not universal. [[User:Oatco|oatco]] <span style="font-size:90%;">[[User talk:Oatco|(talk)]]</span> 23:41, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

: They should be italicised per [[WP:SHIPNAME]]. It was not the intent of [[MOS:BADITALICS]] to override situations where we would normally bold or italicise. It was only referring to the way that we normally italicise foreign words. [[User:Hawkeye7|<span style="color:#800082">Hawkeye7</span>]] [[User_talk:Hawkeye7|<span style="font-size:80%">(discuss)</span>]] 19:32, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

::Alright, thanks for clarifying! Maybe an explanatory footnote is in order? (Or maybe not – this might not be a common-enough issue.)

::I did come across something interesting, though: looking at the Russian-language Wikipedia, it seems like {{em|Russian text itself}} doesn't italicize names of ships (or titles of major works, for that matter), instead using «angle brackets». Some examples: [[ru:Титаник]] (''Titanic''), [[ru:Москва (ракетный крейсер)]] (''Moskva''), [[ru:HMS Queen Mary]], [[ru:Преступление и наказание]] (''Crime and Punishment''). An example in running text:

::{{tq2|{{lang|ru|В 2:20 15 апреля, разломившись на две части, «Титаник» затонул, унеся жизни 1496 человек^[9]. 712 спасшихся человек подобрал пароход «Карпатия»^[10].}}<br>{{lang|ru-Latn|V 2:20 15 aprelja, razlomivšis' na dve časti, «Titanik» zatonul, unesja žizni 1496 čelovek^[9]. 712 spasšixsja čelovek podobral paroxod «Karpatija»^[10].}}<br>At 2:20 am on April 15, the <i>Titanic</i> sank, breaking in two, killing 1,496 people^[9]. 712 survivors were picked up by the steamer <i>Carpathia</i>^[10].}}

::So, perhaps in the lead sentence, where the "{{tq|'''Romanized name''' (Language: Native name, <small>tr.</small> ''Transliterated name'')}}" template is used, the native, Cyrillic name of a ship ought not to be italicized? (Exactly because it is the native form, and the language itself doesn't italicize ship names.) This appears to be the current convention, anyway. (For examples: ''{{oldid2|1135356005|Crime and Punishment}}'', ''{{oldid2|1125393936|Pravda}}'', ''{{oldid2|1134888074|Anna Karenina}}'' (which also uses angle brackets), {{oldid2|1135605133|Russian aircraft carrier ''Admiral Kuznetsov''}}, ''{{oldid2|1134669341|Vostok&nbsp;1}}''). Following this convention, the majority of ship names in Cyrillic wouldn't be italicized, as in most cases the romanized name would be used instead. ({{oldid2|1135459585|Etymology|Sputnik&nbsp;1}} provides a counterexample.)

::My original motivation for asking this was that I came across {{oldid2|1089345444|this revision of "Kara-class cruiser"}}, and found the column of italicized Cyrillic names quite hard to read, then "fixed" it as violating BADITALICS. (Plus it didn't have {{template|lang}} tags; putting them in got rid of the italics also.) [[User:Oatco|oatco]] <span style="font-size:90%;">[[User talk:Oatco|(talk)]]</span> 21:51, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

:::[[User:Oatco|oatco]] The guidance in this page is not meant to overrule other guidelines but I have to point out that not all guidance are coordinated and sometimes contradictions or omissions happen incidentally. You should maybe move this discussion over to MOS:SHIPNAME because editors there might have more insights into the peculiarities of it. <span style="border-radius:8em;padding:0 7px;background:orange">[[User:Thinker78|<span style="color:white">'''Thinker78'''</span>]]</span> [[User talk:Thinker78|(talk)]] 18:25, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

::::True, but we do not tolerate contradictions for long when discovered. This needs to be resolved. I think a footnote will do, explaining that if there is some {{em|context-specific}} reason to italicize (ship name, book title, emphasis preserved in a quotation, etc.) then it should be italicized, if the script supports that. Cyrillic does. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 01:10, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

== style for translation of title with multiple words unclear ==

from [[Ishwar Chandra Vidyasagar]]

...gave him the honorific title "''Vidyasagar''" ("Ocean of Knowledge"; from Sanskrit, ''Vidya'' "knowledge" and ''Sagar'' "ocean").

<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Aniish72|Aniish72]] ([[User talk:Aniish72#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Aniish72|contribs]]) 21:22, 13 June 2021 (UTC)</small>

:It should read:

:{{talkquote|...gave him the honorific title {{lang|hi|Vidyasagar}} ('Ocean of Knowledge'; from [[Sanskrit]] {{lang|sa|vidya}} 'knowledge' and {{lang|sa|sagar}} 'ocean').}}

:Use appropriate language markup per [[MOS:FOREIGN]]; use single quotes for glosses ([[MOS:SINGLE]]); don't use "scare quotes" around honorifics; don't add unnecessary commas; don't over-capitalize misc. words. I've adjusted the text in the article. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 01:24, 2 February 2023 (UTC)