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* [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (footnotes)/Mixed citations and footnotes|Mixed citations and footnotes]]}}
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== Footnotes: using a source more than once ==
Section [[Help:Footnotes#Footnotes: using a source more than once]] describe the case where there are multiple identical citations of the same source. It does not, however, describe, e.g., the use of {{tl|rp}} to cite different locations within the same source, quoting different passages within the same source. -- [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 11:12, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
:See also [[Help:Shortened footnotes]]. Using shortened footnotes you write the source citation once at the bottom, then use references to link to it. The references can include page numbers or other ___location information which will be collated automatically. See as an example [[NBR 224 and 420 Classes]] and note that, for instance reference 10 shows 5 references to page 66 being collected together and that there 8 different pages references in SLS (1970), yet the full bibliographic citation is only required once. [[User:Martin of Sheffield|Martin of Sheffield]] ([[User talk:Martin of Sheffield|talk]]) 13:43, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
::Yes, {{tl|sfn}} is useful, but {{para|ps}} doesn't provide the functionality of {{para|quote}}, and repurposing {{para|loc}} to provide a quote is kludgy at best.
::IAC, shouldn't there be some guidance for new editors in that section? -- [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 18:19, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
:::You can use the {{tl|harv}} family of templates if you want to do something specific with a quote, as something like {{tl|harvnb}} or {{tl|harvp}} is used inside ref tags. So you can include anytext, including urls that can't be used in quote fields, after the template but before the closing tag.<br>
:::I think the issue with going to far into the details of any particular way of referencing is that it's just one way of doing referencing, and none of them are more or less acceptable (apart from parenthical per [[WP:PAREN]]). -- LCU '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|ActivelyDisinterested]]''' <small>''∆[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|transmissions]]∆'' °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|co-ords]]°</small> 19:43, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
== Period at the end of a footnote ==
This guide doesn't specify whether to put a period at the end of a footnote that isn't a complete sentence. It contains some examples that do and some that don't. Something should be said about this – either that a period should or shouldn't be placed, or that this should be handled consistently within a footnote section, or that it's up to the author of the individual footnote. [[User:Joriki|Joriki]] ([[User talk:Joriki|talk]]) 12:26, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
:Can you provide an example? Regards, <span style="border-radius:8em;padding:0 7px;background:orange">[[User:Thinker78|<span style="color:white">'''Thinker78'''</span>]]</span> [[User talk:Thinker78|(talk)]] 02:26, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
::The footnote text "LibreOffice For Starters, First Edition, Flexible Minds, Manchester, 2002, p. 18" is used several times, mostly without a period at the end, but in the section [[Help:Footnotes#Footnotes: using a source more than once|Footnotes: using a source more than once]] it's used with a period (twice). In the section [[Help:Footnotes#Footnotes: embedding references|Footnotes: embedding references]], all the footnotes end in a period. In the section [[Help:Footnotes#Footnotes: predefined groups|Footnotes: predefined groups]], none of them do. In the section [[Help:Footnotes#Footnotes: groups|Footnotes: groups]], the ones in the Notes section don't but the one in the References section does. [[User:Joriki|Joriki]] ([[User talk:Joriki|talk]]) 10:46, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
:::Fair point. I think in general they should have a period at the end, because that indicates more that a word set has ended rather than not having it. Regards, <span style="border-radius:8em;padding:0 7px;background:orange">[[User:Thinker78|<span style="color:white">'''Thinker78'''</span>]]</span> [[User talk:Thinker78|(talk)]] 21:59, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
::::Beware that this can be an issue of [[WP:CITEVAR]]. The reason some of the references have a period at the end is because they use {{tl|cite book}}, which generates an output with a period at the end. If {{tl|citation}} was used it wouldn't have a period at the end. Obviously when plain text is used it will be a matter of preference. -- LCU '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|ActivelyDisinterested]]''' <small>''∆[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|transmissions]]∆'' °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|co-ords]]°</small> 22:56, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
:::::Fair point. References are mostly nowadays automatic. Regards, <span style="border-radius:8em;padding:0 7px;background:orange">[[User:Thinker78|<span style="color:white">'''Thinker78'''</span>]]</span> [[User talk:Thinker78|(talk)]] 00:02, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
:::::So, if I understand [[WP:CITEVAR]] correctly, this should be handled consistently per article, based on the prevailing style of the article? If so, I think it would be good to mention that on this help page, and to make the footnotes in the section [[Help:Footnotes#Footnotes: groups|Footnotes: groups]] consistent (since they're meant to be in the same article). [[User:Joriki|Joriki]] ([[User talk:Joriki|talk]]) 11:00, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
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:Any guidance given should distinguish between explanatory footnotes and references; if the rules are the same, it should use wording like "for both explanatory footenotes and references,". -- [[User:Chatul|Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul]] ([[User talk:Chatul|talk]]) 09:48, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
::Unfortunately Wikipedia doesn't have a hard and fast rule to distinguish between what is a footnote and what is a reference. You can use {{tl|efn}} or {{para|group}} and have them listed separately, or you can just mix them in with all the other references. You could even then call the article section that contains all of those explanatory notes and references "Footnotes". All of that would be acceptable by Wikipedia's standards. Trying to set one hard rule would run foul of [[WP:CITEVAR]]. -- LCU '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|ActivelyDisinterested]]''' <small>''∆[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|transmissions]]∆'' °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|co-ords]]°</small> 11:23, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
:::I wasn't suggesting setting one hard rule after you pointed out [[WP:CITEVAR]]. Please see above for my suggestion. [[User:Joriki|Joriki]] ([[User talk:Joriki|talk]]) 12:02, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
::::This was in reply to Metz's comment about clarifying the difference between footnotes and references, not your suggestion. I have nothing against making the page more consistent. -- LCU '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|ActivelyDisinterested]]''' <small>''∆[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|transmissions]]∆'' °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|co-ords]]°</small> 17:06, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
Based on the discussion above, I removed a period in [[Help:Footnotes#Footnotes: groups|Footnotes: groups]] to make the example consistent. I'd suggest adding something like this: "The style of footnotes (e.g. whether footnotes that aren't complete sentences end in a period) should be consistent within an article but may vary across articles. See also [[WP:CITEVAR]]." But I don't see a good place for this – the only place that currently has this level of detail is [[Help:Footnotes#Formatting ref tags|Formatting ref tags]], but this is about all footnotes, not just ref tags. [[User:Joriki|Joriki]] ([[User talk:Joriki|talk]]) 10:04, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
== List-defined references in the Visual Editor ==
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