Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals/Archive/March 2007: Difference between revisions
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===Cyprus bio stubs===
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{{tl|Cyprus-bio-stub}} / {{tl|Cyprus-footy-bio-stub}}
We need a stub for people of the EU nation of Cyprus. Historic Cypriot figures as well as footballers are two types that could be updated in we had a stub category for them. [[User:NYC2TLV|NYC2TLV]] 20:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
* Just did a hand count and found 67 people under {{cl|Cyprus stubs}}. Support bio stub with an upmerged footy-bio.--[[User:Thomas.macmillan|Thomas.macmillan]] 21:45, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
*Sounds feasible, but be warned - Cyprus is a minefield of editwars. I'd recommend having no icon for it (if you have a map, there are complaints from Greek Cypriots; if you have a flag, there are complaints from Turkish Cypriots. If you have a person, well it will almost certainly depend on their ancestry as to whether there are complaints and where from. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 01:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
**Is it possible to make stubs for Northern Cypriots as well? This could please both sides and you could use different flags for each so that neither side is shown any real sovereignty over the island much like the Israel and Palestine stubs. [[User:NYC2TLV|NYC2TLV]] 16:02, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
***Given [[Shilo (town)|current usage]] of {{tl|Israel-geo-stub}}, and [[Wikipedia:Stub_types_for_deletion/Log/2006/October/16#.7B.7BPalestine-stub.7D.7Ds|past "discussions"]] about {{tl|Palestine-stub}}, that's not what I'd call an encouraging comparison. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 18:22, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
***I would suggest that we stick with one Cyprus-stub as we have done with Korea. Besides, I am not sure that a TRNC-stub would even meet the minimum levels.--[[User:Thomas.macmillan|Thomas.macmillan]] 18:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
***Palestine is a special case in that it is recognised by a fairly large number of countries. It doesn't really bear much comparison with the situation in Cyprus from that viewpoint. WP:WSS has a fairly consistent record of deliberately avoiding stub types for places such as TRNC due to their lack of recognition and the potential for NPOV problems (which is why there aren't stub types for places which are probably more readily comparable such as Chechnya, Kurdistan, Ossetia, and Somaliland. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 23:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
****Provided we can avoid WWIII breaking out, I'll support a -bio (covering Greeks, Turks, Armenians, Latins, and Spaghetti Monsters) but {{tl|Somaliland-stub}} was a bad idea and TRNC- will be worse. Iff we get a -bio template, people will try to add an image anyway, so I'd suggest we give it a neutral one from the start, like say, [[Zeno of Citium|Zeno of Kition]]. Normally, I wouldn't be in doubt as to an upmerged -footy template, but there is the image issue as these templates normally use both a football and a flag. Iff we make one of these, just sticking with the football would probably be the best course. Btw, if / when we have enough material, the category names should be {{cl|Cypriot people stubs}} and {{cl|Cypriot football biography stubs}} [[User:Valentinian|Valentinian]] <sup>[[User_talk:Valentinian|T]] / [[Special:Contributions/Valentinian|C]]</sup> 12:14, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
*****I don't know. Cyprus is recognized by UEFA and FIFA so taking the flag out of the image sounds a little silly. Arguments can be made that since the TRNC is not FIFA recognized that they can't be added. I mean every thing else related to UEFA competitions uses the Cypriot flag, why can't the players? [[User:NYC2TLV|NYC2TLV]] 14:54, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
******You're right that UEFA, FIFA, and everybody else except Turkey and the [[Organization of the Islamic Conference|OIC]] only recognize the Rep. of Cyprus. I don't love the situation I proposed above, believe me, I just don't like edit wars. Do we have any material at all about Turkish-Cypriot footballers? In other words; how big is the actual problem? There's got to be football clubs in North Nicosia, Famagusta and Kyrenia, but of course, if the players can't play in any major tournament, their notability might be a bit thin. [[User:Valentinian|Valentinian]] <sup>[[User_talk:Valentinian|T]] / [[Special:Contributions/Valentinian|C]]</sup> 16:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
****** As I wrote earlier, a hand count revealed around 67 bio stubs in Cyprus-stub. I suggest we use the official flag of the Republic of Cyprus (the vast majority of TC's want to be united, anyway) and include both the TRNC and the RC under it, as well as the diaspora (where I am guessing most notable TRNC soccer players are)--[[User:Thomas.macmillan|Thomas.macmillan]] 18:22, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
******I ''very strongly'' advise that the flag not be used. You might want to have a read of [[Template talk:Cyprus-stub]], to start with, and I can point to a quite a number of other talk pages where that particular battle raged. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 00:02, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
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==={{tl|NE-England-School}} & [[:Category:North East England school stubs]]===
{{sfp top|create upmerged templates along permcat lines}}
There are stub categories for regions such as Yorkshire and the Humber ({{tl|Yorkshire-school-stub}}) but not for schools in the [[North East England|North East region]].
Ideal articles:
*[[Bydales School]], [[Redcar & Cleveland College]], [[Rye Hills School]] & [[Huntcliff School]]: currently, and wrongly, tagged as Yorkshire and Humber school stub.
*Many schools in categories such as [[:Category:Schools in Tyne and Wear]] such as [[Joseph Swan School]].
Your thoughts? [[User:Computerjoe|Computerjoe]][[User talk:Computerjoe|<span style="color:red">'s talk</span>]] 19:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
*In theory this is definitely a good plan; I can't confirm whether it'll hit the threshold of 60, but it seems fairly likely (there is (or was) 13 UK-school stubs in the T&W cat, and it's diminishing returns from there, but undercatting is obviously at work). I'd suggest upmerged templates from {{tl|Durham-school-stub}}, {{tl|TyneandWear-school-stub}}, {{tl|Northumberland-school-stub}}, etc, since those are how the permcats are organised, and more meaningful divisions than the regions in many respects. (Upmerged to the parent if the proposed category doesn't pass threshold, to the NE cat if it does.) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 01:01, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
*Yes to the category and upmerged templates, but I'm not that sure that we need an actual {{tl|NE-England-school-stub}} (lower case "s", please!) though - we could just use the individual upmerged county templates. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 01:44, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
*:Yep. Sounds good. However, other stubs follow the format of regions like {{tl|Yorkshire-school-stub}}. [[User:Computerjoe|Computerjoe]][[User talk:Computerjoe|<span style="color:red">'s talk</span>]] 20:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
*::What the other regions do as a rule is to "templatise" by (ceremonial) county, upmerged to the regional cat. (I'd tend to agree with Grutness that regional templates are largely redundant, since it's fairly tricky for a school to be in two counties at once.) [[Yorkshire]] isn't a modern ceremonial county, granted, by it does correspond to a permcat ({{cl|schools in Yorkshire}}), and conveniently avoids having to use templates like {{tl|NorthYorkshire-school-stub}}, {{tl|WestYorkshire-school-stub}} {{tl|SouthYorkshire-school-stub}} {{tl|EastRidingofYorkshire-school-stub}}. But it's ''not'' synonymous with the region (which also includes North Lincolnshire and North East Lincolnshire), so I don't see it as a precedent for having a regional template instead of county ones (and not much of a case for having it as well). [[User:Alai|Alai]] 00:23, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
*:::A problem is many areas of North East England fall within the ceremonial county of North Yorkshire. The category this uses is an official region of England.
*::::But it isn't how the permcats are organised, but rather by ceremonial county and unitary authority, which are just as "official", and considerably more significant. And in any event, additional per-UA upmerged templates such as {{tl|Stockton-school-stub}} will take care of the strangely-regioned cases. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 19:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
*:::::Very well. I doubt many articles would fall under UA templates. [[User:Computerjoe|Computerjoe]][[User talk:Computerjoe|<span style="color:red">'s talk</span>]] 22:34, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
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==={{tl|Hawaii road stub}}/{{cl|Hawaii road stubs}}===
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I'm been creating a couple of new Hawaiian roads as of late and I'm in the process of creating some more. Unfortunately, there's isn't any stub for Hawaii roads and I've been putting them under the US road stubs. I'm considering creating a Wikiproject for Hawaii roads to get people involved with the creation and formation of roads in the state of Hawaii so this is the first step to get the process going. If you need a image stub for the Hawaii road stub, ask [[User:TwinsMetsFan|TwinsMetsFan]] for assistance. [[User:Spongefan|Spongefan]] 17:56, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
*Please create the template at {{tl|Hawaii-road-stub}}, per the stub naming conventions. Are there 60 of these at present? If not, upmerging to a regional category would be better for the time being would be better than a separate category. Otherwise, sounds sensible enough. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 21:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
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==={{tl|frog-stub}}/{{cl|Frog stubs}}===
{{sfp top|create frog-stub and other templates as revised by Caerwine}}
Among the first 30 [[:Category:Amphibian stubs|Amphibian stubs]], found only a few which aren't about [[:Category:Frogs by classification|frogs]] (including [[toads]], which are classified as part of Order [[Anura]]. [[User:Eli Falk|Eli Falk]] 13:41, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
*Works for me; somewhat surprised there's no immediate signs of this having been proposed before. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 16:42, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
**Support the template but oppose the category, about 90% of all living amphibian species are in order Anura (frogs and toads) and there only about 500 stubs right now, so adding another stub category doesn't look like it would accomplish much. Suggest any potential category splitting at this time be done by family, judging simply by numbers of genera and results from Stub Sense, looks like the families Bufonidae (true toads), Hylidae (tree frogs), Leptodactylidae (tropical frogs), Microhylidae (narrow-mouth frogs), and Ranidae (true frogs) look to be populous enough to at least warrant a stub template and maybe a category depending on much they are understubbed and/or undercategorized. So to recap, start with templates {{tl|Anura-stub}} (with redirect {{tl|frog-stub}} or vice versa) and {{tl|Bufonidae-stub}}, {{tl|Hylidae-stub}}, {{tl|Leptodactylidae-stub}}, {{tl|Microhylidae-stub}}, and {{tl|Ranidae-stub}} <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 19:39, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
***Oh yeah, ''that'' was the gist of the previous discussion on this topic. But if we're going to split out frog families at some point, an order-level parent category would then be only logical. Crunching the numbers from the Feb. db dump by permcat, for all the amphibians:
****{{cl|Microhylidae}} 57
****{{cl|Tree frogs}} 55
****{{cl|Toads}} 50
****{{cl|True frogs}} 41
****{{cl|Leptodactylidae}} 40
****{{cl|Salamanders}} 39
***Come to that, if the frogs are going to be re-templatised by family, it would seem fairly reasonable to have the frog family templates feed into a {{cl|frog stubs}}, but to skip the generic {{tl|frog-stub}} template. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 20:47, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
****Note, the tree frog and toad permcats do not correspond to a single family. The old-world tree frogs have been split out to a separate family from the rest but that category contains both and the toad category by its own admission contains not just the Bufonidae, but also other frog species commonly called toads. The differences probably aren't enough to warrant not creating templates, but they do mean that I'm strongly opposed to creating a {{tl|toad-stub}} and opposed (but not strongly or weakly, just opposed) to creating a {{tl|treefrog-stub}}, even as redirects. I don't mind {{tl|frog-stub}} since [[Anura]] itself is a redirect to [[Frog]] and there are several small families that will never have even 30+ stubs as there are fewer than 30 species in them. <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 00:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
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===Geology-stub split===
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Apologies in advance for the haziness of this proposal - I'm bringing it here for debate in the hopes that someone here can come up with something more solid.
I notice a lot of stubs which are both geology and geography - specifically, stubs for specific geological sites, such as [[Victoria Island structure]]. At the moment, a lot of them are double-stubbed with X-geo-stub and geology-stub, but I'm wondering whether a specific {{tl|geology-site-stub}} might be better than the geology-one for the latter. That way, if there are enough of them, they could later be split on a by-continent or by-country basis. I have not done a count up of these, but I'd be very surprised if there aren't several dozen, at least. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 01:04, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
*Doesn't immediately look like a permcat-follower, unless it can be mapped onto {{cl|geomorphology}} in some manner. For which I think we've already discussed a stub type... [[User:Alai|Alai]] 03:38, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
**There's {{cl|Regional geology}} and all its "..by country" subtypes. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 04:29, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
***OK, that works for me. Ideally we'd echo that language in the stubcat name, at least (the template I'm fairly easy on). [[User:Alai|Alai]] 04:34, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
*I can find [[User:Alai/geology-region|81 possibilities]], which seems pretty promising. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 23:18, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
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===Split of {{tl|Indonesia-geo-stub}}===
{{sfp top|create by province}}
{{tl|Jakarta-geo-stub}} plus cat. would take 125 articles with it out of this growing category which is nearing 800. Other counts available on request by province, island, etc. [[User:Aelfthrytha|Aelfthrytha]] 16:39, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
:While not exactly official regions, how would a split of Indonesia into Sumatra, Java, Lesser Sunda, Kalimantan, Sulawesi, Moluccas, and Irian Barat work out stub wise? (leaving aside for the moment the thorny political issue of what exactly to call Western New Guinea) That would be a complete split and likely doable a lot sooner and easier than a provincial level split. <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 22:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
:A reasonable idea - I've been wondering whether a Sumatra, Java, or Kalimatan split might improve this category a bit. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 23:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
*Counts: Sumatra, 150; Java, 155; Nusa Tenggara, 81; Kalimantan, 40; Sulawesi, 49; Maluku Islands, 30; W. New Guinea (Papua & W. Irian Jaya), 27. I also have sub-counts by province for every single one - West Java has 53, East Nusa Tenggara has 50, no others cleared 40. [[User:Aelfthrytha|Aelfthrytha]] 02:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
*I'd think cats per (top three at present) island/region, and templates per province would be the ideal "forward-looking" solutuion. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 02:46, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
**Note: Java and Jakarta still need separate templates and cats - Jakarta alone has 125, Java excluding Jakarta has 155. Agree with Alai, templates per province. [[User:Aelfthrytha|Aelfthrytha]] 05:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
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==={{tl|pesticide-stub}}===
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More than 60 stubs for this category - see [http://tools.wikimedia.de/~daniel/WikiSense/CategoryIntersect.php?wikilang=en&wikifam=.wikipedia.org&basecat=Pesticides&basedeep=5&mode=cs&tagcat=Chemistry+stubs&tagdeep=5&go=Scan&userlang=en here] and [http://tools.wikimedia.de/~daniel/WikiSense/CategoryIntersect.php?wikilang=en&wikifam=.wikipedia.org&basecat=Pesticides&basedeep=5&mode=cs&tagcat=Agriculture+stubs&tagdeep=3&userlang=en&set-userlang=v%C3%A4lj+spr%C3%A5k here] using CatScan. Coming under agriculture-stub and possibly chem-stub. [[User:Jeodesic|Jeodesic]] 16:04, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
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===Ethno/native/indigenous peoples stubs===
{{sfp top|create -ethno-group-stubs if needed}}
As per discussion at [[WP:SFD#.7B.7BIndigenous-stub.7D.7D_.2F_Cat:Indigenous_peoples_stubs|WP:SFD]], it's probably time to complete the stub types for ethnic groups, or at least native or indigenous peoples. we have some continent-level splits, but are missing several. Unfortunately, naming is not uniform, which makes for a problem. We currently have, at the continental level, {{tl|Africa-ethno-group-stub}}, {{tl|Asia-ethno-group-stub}}, and {{tl|Euro-ethno-group-stub}}, but also {{tl|NorthAm-native-stub}} and {{tl|IndigenousAustralia-stub}}.
It would be useful to have stub templates for South America (SouthAm-x), Central America (CentralAm-x), the Caribbean, and Oceania. Chances are, all except the South American one would be upmrged, with a fully-fledged stub with category for South America. The question is, though, what should they be named? My personal preference is for all of them to be X-ethno-group-stubs (and with consideration made for changing the name of the two which don't fit this scheme), but alternative opinions are welcome - as is some indication of potential numbers of stubs. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 10:10, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
:'''Support''' {{SouthAm-Native-stub}} and {{cl|Indigenous_peoples_of_South_America_stubs}} to mirror North American native stubbing. I think Central American is covered by Pre-Columbian, Mayan and Aztec. I think Carribean may be fine with just nbaming them Caribeans-stub. I'd opt out of "ethnic group" in America, as America has ethnic stock from all over Europe and Africa and Asia, the native people are disambiguated by using the words Native or indigenous or first nations in America. A Native American Wikiproject exists, so you can probably allow this as within scope of their Wikiproject with just 30-60 articles. I don't know enough on Oceania but it seems you can cover it with naming the ethnicities such as Polynesian. [[User:Goldenrowley|Goldenrowley]] 03:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
:I did a little further research, we have Central America covered with {{tl|Mesoamerica-stub}} and South American with {{tl|pre-columbian-stub}} by its category. However I really like SouthAm-Native-stub for equality with NorthAm-Native-stub and because it allows for the people to have lived past the Pre-columbian time marker. [[User:Goldenrowley|Goldenrowley]] 09:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
:'''Addendum''' While this is receiving attention, could I add a rider template/stub for [[Uncontacted peoples]]? While not a geographic distinction, they truly are a special class of indigenous, distinct from incorporated groups. Most are in South America but some are in the West Indies, North America, and Russia.[[User:Yeago|Yeago]] 17:53, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
:On Yeago's addendum, uncontacted peoples, I checked it out and there are perhaps 10 of stub length there, the rest is a list of potential but unwritten articles. I have more research, the permcat for Americas Indigenous people is {{cl|Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas}} if we just follow the perm cats we'd make the following for American indigenous people:
::*{{tl|SouthAm-native-stub}} / {{cl|Indigenous_peoples_of_South_America_stubs}} 50-100 at this time.
::*{{tl|CentralAm-native-stub}} / {{cl|Indigenous_peoples_of_Central_America_stubs}}
::*{{tl|Caribbean-native-stub}} / {{cl|Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Caribbean_stubs}}. However this may stub just 3 articles or so. Instead I suggest the ethnic group words are more useful: {{tl|Caribbean-ethnic-group-stub}} / {{cl|Caribbean-ethnic-group-stubs}} (noting the rational, few tribes in Caribbean on the other hand it has many diverse and distinct ethnic groups.)[[User:Goldenrowley|Goldenrowley]] 19:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
:::Is that a yay or nay for uncontacted peoples? I believe there's lots of room for growth, as Brazil's estimates of the number of uncontacted tribes have near doubled over the past 5 years. However, information is slow to accumulate as researchers must be very careful in their methods. Human cultures that did not collide with the global Europeal expansion over the past 500 years are incredibly preserved examples of paleolithic man. I only suggest this because I feel that merely categorizing them as 'indigenous' is not a very useful distinction (many 'indigenous' are millionare casino owners >=).[[User:Yeago|Yeago]] 18:19, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
::::My personal opinion would be nay for uncontacted people, we have barely enough for South and Central America as it is, and it would carve out and make the count even smaller. [[User:Goldenrowley|Goldenrowley]] 20:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
:::::Ok. Well for now maybe I can just make a category.[[User:Yeago|Yeago]] 21:50, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
:The more I study it, Grutness, Ethnic is a valid category of each continent, while Native/Indigenous would be considered one subcategory of ethnic, not in the same tier but one subcategory of "American" or "Oceania" if you will - someone was always natives, other ethnicities moved in later (all around the World). So I'd think native and ethnic stubs are NOT exactly the same thing, so could coexist provided there are enough articles. In America there are lots of Natives to write about since they had lots of tribes and nations displaced. [[User:Goldenrowley|Goldenrowley]] 04:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
::Well, that's partly my point. The European and Asian categories are for ethnic groups, in that this is more inclusive, and can include things like "British Australians", which would otherwise have nowhere to go. Similarly, if these are only "native" North American, Caribbean, etc, then there is nowhere for groups like Acadians, Argentinian Welsh, etc to be put. Couple that with the problem in oceania that no-one is native in the strictest sense. In New Zealand, for instance, the Maori only arrived here about 900 years ago, and are only "native" by dint of being the first arrivals. And if you use that as your criterion, then you run into all sorts of other problems (Vikings become native Icelanders, for instance). For those two reasons, ethnic group is, IMO, a more useful way of splitting things than native peoples. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 05:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
:Yes, and yet "natives' are not the same as ethnic, they are a sub-category of Ethnic -- in America there are over 1000's of tribes and nations and we have enough for stub of their own, nestled under ethnic as one subcategory (as in we have enough to subcategorize it already on the tribal levels).[[User:Goldenrowley|Goldenrowley]] 18:01, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
::Just in case I was not clear I think we can do both, its all compatible. Its not an either/or situation, I was looking at all the ethnic american stubs, then picturing it world wide. [[User:Goldenrowley|Goldenrowley]] 21:42, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
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===Split of SouthAfrica-geo-stub===
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