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:::Since the Earth receives energy from the Sun, see [[dissipative system]]. A Nobel prize was granted for that idea. [[User:tgeorgescu|tgeorgescu]] ([[User talk:tgeorgescu|talk]]) 20:02, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
:In the ten years since your first attempt at inserting creationist pseudoscience into the article, neither physics nor biology have changed enough to make evolution suddenly contradict the Second Law. --[[User:Hob Gadling|Hob Gadling]] ([[User talk:Hob Gadling|talk]]) 08:58, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
== Plantinga ==
A discussion was already held here on the status of inclusion of [[Alvin Plantinga|Plantinga]]'s [[Evolutionary argument against naturalism|argument]]. First of all, Plantinga's argument was specifically against philosophical naturalism, not evolution. So, it doesn't matter what other views of Plantinga are, ''his arguments are simply not relevant here''. Additionally, he never objected against evolution. He already stated that his belief in intelligent design was different from other advocates. They merely just carry the same label, but what the label means here varies. As he stated, all religious people (or at least of the Abrahamic faiths) believe in some kind of designer, including theistic evolutionists like [[Theodosius Dobzhansky|Dobzhanksy]]. God could've just "designed" by the natural process of evolution. And even if he was an anti-evolutionist, trying to use his other views to justify a completely irrelevant argument here would be an [[Genetic fallacy|one kind of genetic fallacy]]. This article is specifically for anti-evolutionist arguments. [[User:Asaduzzaman Khan Shahriar|Asaduzzaman Khan Shahriar]] ([[User talk:Asaduzzaman Khan Shahriar|talk]]) 17:03, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
:ID is a form of antievolutionism. {{tq|he never objected against evolution}} contradicts the following sentence {{tq|He already stated that his belief in intelligent design}}. --[[User:Hob Gadling|Hob Gadling]] ([[User talk:Hob Gadling|talk]])
::Plantinga does not exactly deny evolution, and remains skeptical about intelligent design as science. He talks like a philosopher, not like a scientist. And, yes, if he means that epistemic responsibility is scarce in humans, he is spot on. Most humans have never attained the full-blown rationality demanded by embracing modern science. I don't think that our specie is a paragon of rationality. [[User:tgeorgescu|tgeorgescu]] ([[User talk:tgeorgescu|talk]]) 20:34, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
:::{{tq|Plantinga does not exactly deny evolution}} Neither does ID.
:::{{tq|if he means that epistemic responsibility is scarce in humans, he is spot on}} He does not mean that. He uses that as a sort of reductio ad absurdum: if naturalism were true, it would mean that people's thinking is not reliable, which would mean that you cannot rely on... naturalism! His reasoning is full of holes and really stupid: you do not need naturalism to derive that, as you say, people's thinking is indeed not reliable. And picking naturalism as the thing that you cannot rely on at the end is purely arbitrary.
:::I had no problem with deleting Plantinga back then (see [[#Is it fair to include Plantinga on this page?]], contribution from June 2023), but consensus seemed in favor of keeping him. --[[User:Hob Gadling|Hob Gadling]] ([[User talk:Hob Gadling|talk]]) 07:23, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
::::Except, the mere concept of an intelligent designer is not really anti-evolutionist. The term ID is being used here in an extremely un-orthodox way. As I mentioned his "ID" belief is very different from the more traditional ID belief. The only thing common here is the name. It would be like if I renamed [[Young Earth creationism|YEC]] into evolution and evolution into YEC. The only things that change here is the label, but the core beliefs would still be the same. [[User:Asaduzzaman Khan Shahriar|Asaduzzaman Khan Shahriar]] ([[User talk:Asaduzzaman Khan Shahriar|talk]]) 08:37, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
::::Also, how do I even get a concensus? [[User:Asaduzzaman Khan Shahriar|Asaduzzaman Khan Shahriar]] ([[User talk:Asaduzzaman Khan Shahriar|talk]]) 08:57, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
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