Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 14:10, 11 May 2007

Revision as of 14:15, 11 May 2007

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:::::Well, I'm glad you agree that deletion is often needed, I at first feared that you somehow wanted to keep a lot more articles by removing "notability" alltogether :-) Getting everyone to do so is mainly a case of repeating it often enough on AfD's (and ProD, I use and see it there all the time as well). We have largely gotten rid of all uses of Xcruft, so getting rid of "notability" should be possible as well. However, renaming the pages (notability and so on) should probably be discussed on the [[WP:NOTE]] talk page, with enough announcement (WP:AN, village pump, ...) to get consensus for it. If I just start saying on AfD that "notability" should be avoided, I'll get probably laughed away for going against consensus. Will you do a proposal on the talk page, or do you prefer taht I do it or that we proceed in some other way? [[User:Fram|Fram]] 13:27, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

::::::Might help, even if it's just cosmetic ... I suspect a lot of the problem is the application of "notability" and AFD determining inclusion standards that just don't make obvious sense per the fundamental core policies of Wikipedia - either to outsiders or to other Wikipedians. "Verifiability" is a fundamental unchangeable, "notability" really did start as a euphemism for "I don't like it" on VFD as was. The actual problem is trying to justify things that are good in theory but problematic in practice. With living biographies, we can set harsher standards for inclusion because (a) we have a spam problem (b) it helps protect people from attack "biographies" to some degree - so we can set duelling policies, and [[WP:BLP]] is quite deliberately phrased as a restatement of the core content policies of [[WP:NPOV|neutrality]], [[WP:V|verifiability]] and [[WP:NOR|no original research]] ('cos I wrote the second draft of it that way). "Notability" doesn't obviously and evidently follow from ''any'' of these, or at least I haven't seen a formulation of it that does. Justifications(Most justifications of "Notability" I've seen frequently speak of "Not an indiscriminate collection of information", but the articles this is being applied to are in encyclopedic format - just that the justifier is using "indiscriminate collection of information" as a euphemism for "cruft" in the derogatory sense, i.e. he doesn't like the subject.)

::::::So, the actual solution: explain really simply how "notability" follows obviously and evidently from neutrality, verifiability and no original research. Looking at the way WP:BLP is a particularly harsh application of these might provide ideas.