Wikipedia talk:Template index/User talk namespace/Archive 8: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 06:49, 10 November 2007

Revision as of 06:49, 16 November 2007

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This would be a good place to point out to novices (like me!) that you should use a signature when warning a user. (At least, I believe that's what I'm supposed to do, from reading other pages.) If I were more certain of that, I'd even be bold and edit the article myself. Sadly, no. [[User:JayLevitt|JayLevitt]] 02:15, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

== Are there any versions of this warning which ''do not'' include an ethnic slur? ==

This is driving me nuts! [[User:Jacob Haller|Jacob Haller]] 16:28, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

:Huh? What slur on which warning? --[[User:Kralizec!|Kralizec!]] ([[User talk:Kralizec!|talk]]) 17:23, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

::I believe he is referring to [[Vandal]] as the "ethnic slur". I have to admit that's a new one to me.--<span style="font-family: Palatino Linotype">[[User:Kubigula|Kubigula]] ''([[User talk:Kubigula|talk]])''</span> 17:34, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

:::I don't think there are any more Vandals roaming around to object to being slurred. &mdash;[[User:Hydrargyrum|Quicksilver]]^{[[User_talk:Hydrargyrum|T]] [[Special:Emailuser/Hydrargyrum|@]]} 06:00, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

:::: There is a grain of truth in what Jacob wrote. We do use the word "vandal" a lot. Regardless if there is still an ethnicity that identifies itself with that term, it is not the best way to achieve our goal. It's always more productive to focus on what a person did, instead of calling them any names. Therefore, I write simply: "your edit was not helpful". I propose to change that in the templates, too. &mdash; [[User:SebastianHelm|Sebastian]] 06:58, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

:::::We do not say ''you'' are a vandal, we say your edit could be seen / were vandalism, and I think if you proposed this change at either [[WP:UTM]] or [[WP:UW]], then I think you'd find the answer would be quickly no. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Khukri|Khukri]] ([[User talk:Khukri|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Khukri|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}</small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->

:::::If the templates get changed in this fashion, let me know. I'll just fork the ones that mention "vandalism" so that I and others can continue using them. Why we shouldn't call a spade a spade - and call vandalism vandalism - is beyond me. --[[User:Dachannien|'''<font color="Black">Dachannien</font>''']]^{[[User_talk:Dachannien|<font color="Blue">''Talk''</font>]]}_{[[Special:Contributions/Dachannien|<font color="Green">''Contrib''</font>]]} 12:11, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

:::As with Hydra, to take offence with a word who's derivation is 2000 years old is taking it to the extreme, and to use terms like ethnic slur is taking political correctness sensibilities just a tad to far. ^{[[User:Khukri|'''<font face="verdana" color=#6633cc>Khu</font>''']][[User_talk:Khukri|'''<font face="verdana" color=#CC66FF>kri</font>''']]} 07:18, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

::::: (edit conflict) Please, folks, don't fall in the trap of discussing if this is or isn't an issue of political correctness. As I wrote above, that's irrelevant in this case. Instead, we should simply be concise and to the point. "Your edit can be seen as <s><name calling></s>" is obviously less concise than "Your edit was not helpful". Using something that only "could be seen as" just adds an unnecessary level of distraction and complexity. Let's just simply say how we see it. &mdash; [[User:SebastianHelm|Sebastian]] 07:35, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

::::We refer to vandals as vandals, true, but the warnings say things like unconstructive edits may be considered vandalism - that is not exactly the same as saying "you're a vandal". I think it hammers home the point, especially when we're talking about 2nd, 3rd or 4th warnings. Is there any evidence that gentle requests work better than warnings with a recidivist? Very often "your edit was not helpful" is far too much of an understatement. And the first dictionary definition of vandal is one who willingly defaces or destroys property, which is exactly what we're talking about - intellectual property. Seems like the right word to me. (The second refers to the Vandals, who, like the Huns and Visigoths, haven't been making much noise since the 5th century.) <strong>[[User:Tvoz|Tvoz]] </strong>|<small>[[User talk:Tvoz|talk]]</small> 07:28, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

::::: You're only feeding the trolls! You're asking for evidence, but do you have evidence for your claim that calling people names works better? Experience with trolls points to the opposite. For some time I used "your edit was disruptive", but I felt that that only encourages those whose goal is to disrupt Wikipedia. &mdash; [[User:SebastianHelm|Sebastian]] 07:39, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

::::::As I said above Sebastian, you are not calling them names, you are not saying you are a ''vandal'' you are saying what you did was vandalism, the target of the noun is not the person, but their contributions. I think we have assumed pretty good faith with the lvl1 warnings, but once you get to lvl4 lets not beat around the bush here, what they are doing is vandalism. ^{[[User:Khukri|'''<font face="verdana" color=#6633cc>Khu</font>''']][[User_talk:Khukri|'''<font face="verdana" color=#CC66FF>kri</font>''']]} 08:24, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

::::::: I don't think your distinction holds water: It's only a superficial grammatical difference if you say somebody did X or call them an X-doer. But mine probably doesn't hold water, either. "Vandalism/vandal" is closer to a well defined term than to a slur, so I'm striking the "name calling" part. I don't see why you write "once you get to lvl4": {{tl|uw-vand2}} already talks of vandalism. &mdash; [[User:SebastianHelm|Sebastian]] 08:51, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

:::::: You're worried about offending a group that's been dead for a thousand years because they happen to be the origin of an English word that that has nothing to do with the people anymore. Ethnic slur... that's just ridiculous, and purely an attempt at inciting... something. Ignore it. Don't even respond to me. <div style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap;">[[User:Equazcion|Equazcion]] • ''[[User talk:equazcion|argue]]/[[Special:Contributions/Equazcion|improves]]'' • ''07:47, 10/24/2007''</div>

Of course forget the Vandals which I have to hope was a joke, but sorry, Sebastian - I just don't see how we're calling names. "Your edit was not helpful and if you keep it up you may be blocked" doesn't make a lot of sense, does it? "Not helpful" is assuming a lot more good faith than some of these folks are entitled to. <strong>[[User:Tvoz|Tvoz]] </strong>|<small>[[User talk:Tvoz|talk]]</small> 07:50, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

: Good point; it doesn't fit with the warning. Also, your right that "name calling" was exaggerated, and I'm striking that part.

: I still think we should write something that we don't have to wrap in weasel words like "Your edit can be seen as ...", but I guess I'm too tired to get involved in a discussion like this now - Good night! &mdash; [[User:SebastianHelm|Sebastian]] 08:51, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

::This is the look of disbelief I have over the fact that we are discussing ''political correctness'' as it pertains to a people who have not existed in over a millennia. --[[User:Kralizec!|Kralizec!]] ([[User talk:Kralizec!|talk]]) 12:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

:::Should we notify the [[University of Idaho]], which uses "Vandals" as their athletic team nickname? Shall we organize protest mobs to march in front of their stadium or arena? What does [[Jesse Jackson]] have to say about all this? Is there a way we can blame all this on [[Rush Limbaugh]]? '''Puh-LEEEEZE.''' - [[User:Realkyhick|Realkyhick]] <small>([[User talk:Realkyhick|Talk to me]])</small> 17:06, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

:::: '''Puh-LEEEEZE.''', Realkyhick and Kralizec'''!''', read the discussion first and then judge it. That's really something that annoys me here at Wikipedia: People who only read the headline or the first paragraph and then already feel they are smarter than everyone else, whose contributions they didn't even read. (I'm excluding myself here; I made some dumb mistakes in this discussion, but there were enough good contributions.) &mdash; [[User:SebastianHelm|Sebastian]] 00:22, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

::::: Is anyone able to produce evidence that the "Vandal" people are perpetrators of "bad edits". Surely the template MUST be changed from "Vandalism" to "Bad Edits". [[User:Canterberry|Canterberry]] 01:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

::::::Actually ''SebastianHelm'', before I posted my above message, I had to read the entire thread twice because the first time I read it, I thought the entire thing was a [[WP:BJAODN]] refugee. --[[User:Kralizec!|Kralizec!]] ([[User talk:Kralizec!|talk]]) 02:32, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

:::::::Ok, I've read the whole thread repeatedly and I'm left with three possible explanations for what's going on here: 1. This is really a conversation about whether referring to people as vandals is inappropriate name-calling, and the whole "ethnic" thing has nothing to do with it. 2. Some people are really bewildered about the world and think that we're somehow insulting the [[Vandals]], despite the fact that they stopped existing almost 1500 years ago. 3. This is a joke about the idea that someone could think that. So, which is it? I'm beginning to think that we're not all having the same conversation and it's all of them at once. [[User:Pinball22|Pinball22]] 13:03, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

::::::::The answer to your question is "yes." But seriously, I agree with ''Khukri'' and think we should call a spade a spade. Taking my last vandalism revert and warning [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:203.206.217.13&diff=prev&oldid=166884238] as an example, while I have no doubt that in this politically correct era ''someone'' would take offense at being likened to a "[[Vandals|vandal]]" ("oh noes, I have been impugned!"), "[[WP:VAN|vandalism]]" really is the best word to describe [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kakadu_National_Park&diff=prev&oldid=166884025 that edit]. If it quacks [[Duck test|like a duck]] ... --[[User:Kralizec!|Kralizec!]] ([[User talk:Kralizec!|talk]]) 14:20, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

== {{tl|uw-talkinarticle}} ==

Would anyone be opposed to me adding a line in the "please talk in the talk page" template that would instruct new users to click on the "discussion" tap at the top of their screens? --[[User:Arctic.gnome|Arctic Gnome]] <small>([[User talk:Arctic.gnome|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Arctic.gnome|contribs]])</small> 21:11, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

:I would hope that the link to [[Wikipedia:Talk page]] that's already there would be sufficient, but I see no harm in being more explicit.--<span style="font-family: Palatino Linotype">[[User:Kubigula|Kubigula]] ''([[User talk:Kubigula|talk]])''</span> 03:33, 26 October 2007 (UTC)