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What in the world does this statement mean? It makes the entire article rather confusing. Do we mean "If the block cipher is ideal"? I'm not even sure that statement holds w.r.t. all of these constructions. This needs to be fixed, removed, elaborated on. Any suggestions?
: I've made some small changes. Not sure if the black box model and the ideal cipher model are exactly the same. Similar to the random oracle model there exist some (contrieved?) constructions that are secure in the ideal cipher model, but not secure with any instantiation of a block cipher, hence showing that the "ideal cipher world = real world" assumption cannot be made in general. [[Special:Contributions/85.2.78.238|85.2.78.238]] ([[User talk:85.2.78.238|talk]]) 08:10, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
: I'm not yet satisfied with my changes, but are looking for some specific references. In particular, in order to get a secure hash function the block cipher needs some properties that would not be necessary to just make encryption secure. [[Special:Contributions/85.2.78.238|85.2.78.238]] ([[User talk:85.2.78.238|talk]]) 08:46, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
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