Wikipedia:The Problem with Projects: Difference between revisions

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There are currently over 1000 active separate WikiProjects and subprojects. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Bubonic plague is not necessarily a bad thing either, but that doesn't mean that any of us are likely to rush out there and try to get it. However, like plague, I think that, maybe, just maybe,Perhaps the time has come to try to perhaps at least somewhat check the situation, before it grows any worse. What follows are a few suggestions as to how to accomplish this.

==Wikipedia Lifecyclelifecycle==

WikiProjects, and for that matter, "topical" articles in wikipediaWikipedia, share one thing in common with your average [[tribble]]: they're are seemingly born "pregnant." As soon as a project is created for any individual major subject, be it a nation, an academic field of study, or even a form of recreation, shortly thereafter at least one subproject is proposed. Similarly, as soon as any major significant article is made, be it [[Kosovo]], [[happiness]], or [[Satanic ritual abuse]], shortly thereafter the first subarticle will be created as well. And then the second. And so on, and so on, and so on,. .... And, like tribbles, they will comparatively quickly consume all the energy of their editors, multiplying exponentially, eating up anything in sight that doesn'tdoes not try to eat them back, and comparatively soon dying of overexertion and inactivity. And, by wikipediaWikipedia policies and guidelines, there's is not a bloody thing any of useditor can do about it. Probably. That's where the proposal below may become useful. It, like the characters in ''Star Trek'', faces square in the face the unlovely appearance of those dear little entities that look like something the cat coughed up, and is willing to, at least potentially, watch some of them die without trying to prevent it.

==Types and Grades of projects==

It is proposed that there be at least three different "types" of WikiProjects recognized. These would include the "national/subnational", the "academic discipline", and the "cultural phenomenon" projects. Miserable names, I know, and if anyone has any better ones, lemme know. Why these in particular? Also, projects could be broken up into "core" and "ancillary" projects. A "Core" project would be one which directly relates to a standard academic discipline, has no obvious parent project which could take over its function, and/or has such a parent, but turning the smaller project into a subproject of the "parent" project would be less than productive. As an example of the latter, for instance, while [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity]] (and all its subprojects) are all clearly "descendant" projects of [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion]], the logistics of such a merger, and the benefits thereafter, are such that there would be no reason to accomplish such a merger unless there were extremely serious, seemingly unsolvable, problems with the child project. The majority of the other projects, which, as it were, don't have recognition as being either nations or general academic fields, or are projects dealing only with a comparatively small area within one or more cultural phenomena, would be considered "ancillary" projects, or any other similar name.

It is proposed that there be at least three different "types" of WikiProjects recognized. These would include the "national/subnational", the "academic discipline", and the "cultural phenomenon" projects. MiserablePoor names, I know, and if anyone has any better ones, lemmeplease say knowso. Why these in particular? Also,The projectsmost could be broken up into "core" and "ancillary" projects. A "Core" project would be one which directly relates to a standard academic discipline, has no obvious parent project which could take over its function, and/or has such a parent, but turning the smaller project into a subprojectcentral of the "parent" projectthese would be lesscounted than productive. As an example of the latter, for instance, while [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity]] (and all its subprojects) are all clearlyas "descendantcore" projects of [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion]], the logistics of such a merger, and the benefits thereafter, are such that there would be no reason to accomplish such a merger unless there were extremely serious, seemingly unsolvable, problems with the child project. The majority of the other projects, which, as it were, don't have recognition as being either nations or general academic fields, or are projects dealing only with a comparatively small area within one or more cultural phenomena, would be considered "ancillary" projects, or any other similar name.

Like it or not, much of the content we have relates to individual nation states, in terms of history, locations, people associated with them, etc., most specifically existing nations. There is an "Economy of" article for I think every individual nation on the planet. There are also countless articles about politicians from individual nations, the history, including military history, of individual nations, the physical and political geography of individual nations, and so on. Also, in all honesty, if we want photos of articles related to any number of individual articles, many of which can only or best be found by editors involved with certain states, it helps to have a central gathering place where they can converge. Similarly, if not perhaps as obviously, it would make some degree of sense that separate overseas territories of individual nations have separate articles. Despite his best intentions, for instance, a citizen of Liverpool isn't really likely to be hopping a bus to take photographs of [[Saint Helena]], nor is a citizen of Paris going to get one of [[Miquelon]]. Thus, although they might never be particularly active projects or subprojects, it makes sense to a degree to have individual subprojects for most of these major overseas territories as well.

Like it or not, much of the content we have relates to individual nation states, in terms of history, locations, people associated with them, etc., most specifically existing nations. There is an "Economy of" article for I think every individual nation on the planet. There are also countless articles about politicians from individual nations, the history, including military history, of individual nations, the physical and political geography of individual nations, and so on. Also, in all honesty, if we want photos of articles related to any number of individual articles, many of which can only or best be found by editors involved with certain states, it helps to have a central gathering place where they can converge. Similarly, if not perhaps as obviously, it would make some degree of sense that separate overseas territories of individual nations have separate articles. Despite his best intentions, for instance, a citizen of Liverpool isn't really likely to be hopping a bus to take photographs of [[Saint Helena]], nor is a citizen of Paris going to get one of [[Miquelon]]. Thus, although they might never be particularly active projects or subprojects, it makes sense to a degree to have individual subprojects for most of these major overseas territories as well.

The academic discipline projects should be obvious. In fact, many of the projects related to these major disciplines already have some style guidelines to ensure that articles related to their subjects are as inclusive and accurate as possible. I also think that it makes a degree of sense to include in this group subjects which have most of the characteristics of major academic disciplines, even if not recognized as separate disciplines per se, considering the "scope" similarity. Thus, there is probably as good a reason for there to be a [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Scientology]] as there is a [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Hinduism]], despite the potential differences in amount of relevant content, based on the general similarity of the subject matter. That is, of course, provided there are individuals interested enough in working such a project. For purposes of organization, even if their names probably don't indicate as much, most of the various WikiProjects on the various kinds of lifeforms would probably be included here as well.

The academic discipline projects should be obvious. In fact, many of the projects related to these major disciplines already have some style guidelines to ensure that articles related to their subjects are as inclusive and accurate as possible. IIt alsomay think that it makesmake a degree of sense to include in this group subjects which have most of the characteristics of major academic disciplines, even if not recognized as separate disciplines per se, considering the "scope" similarity. Thus, there is probably as good a reason for there to be a [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Scientology]] as there is a [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Hinduism]], despite the potential differences in amount of relevant content, based on the general similarity of the subject matter. That is, of course, provided there are individuals interested enough in working such a project. For purposes of organization, even if their names probably don't indicate as much, most of the various WikiProjects on the various kinds of lifeforms would probably be included here as well.

Lastly, there are the cultural phenomena projects. The name really doesn't say much of anything, and I know that, but I can't think of anything else which would be roughly equivalent. This would encompass athletic activities, spectator sports, popular media, food and drink related subjects, fashion, leisure activities, and other subjects which perhaps relate to but aren't actually at the "academic discipline" level. Video games, individual broadcast or other popular media, other hobbies, and the like would be contained herein.

Lastly, there are the cultural phenomena projects. The name really doesn't say much of anything, andbut Iit know that, butis Ihard can'tto think of anything else which would be roughly equivalent. This would encompass athletic activities, spectator sports, popular media, food and drink related subjects, fashion, leisure activities, and other subjects which perhaps relate to but aren't actually at the "academic discipline" level. Video games, individual broadcast or other popular media, other hobbies, and the like would be contained herein.

Clearly, not all the extant WikiProjects even come close to falling clearly into any of these groups. [[Wikipedia:WikiProject 24]], for example, is clearly about a specific program within the broadcast media, not about any broadcast medium per se. [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Myrtle Beach]] deals with a region which is not an individual self-governing nation or physically isolated from its "parent" government, and I don't imagine it is particular likely to become either of those anytime in the near future, either. Projects on topics like these, while they might be valuable for improving a limited range of articles, are probably the ones which, as it were, have the highest maintenance/development ratios, and the ones which are in that sense perhaps least useful to wikipedia as a whole. These are the projects I referred to above as "ancillary" projects, and they would be, according to this proposal, about the only ones which would ever have a chance of being deleted under ordinary conditions.

Clearly, not all the extant WikiProjects even come close to falling clearly into any of these groups. [[Wikipedia:WikiProject 24]], for example, is clearly about a specific program within the broadcast media, not about any broadcast medium per se. [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Myrtle Beach]] deals with a region which is not an individual self-governing nation or physically isolated from its "parent" government, and Iit don'tis imagineunimaginable that it is particular likely to become either of those anytime in the near future, either. Projects on topics like these, while they might be valuable for improving a limited range of articles, are probably the ones which, as it were, have the highest maintenance/development ratios, and the ones which are in that sense perhaps least useful to wikipedia as a whole. These are the projects I referred to above as "ancillary" projects, and they would be, according to this proposal, about the only ones which would ever have a chance of being deleted under ordinary conditions.

I should point out here that I would not include those entities which, whatever their name, are functionally still "subprojects" of a larger project. [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Sydney]], despite its name, is for all intents and purposes, at this point, a subproject of [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Australia]]. Such subprojects, should, I believe, be considered to be entirely and solely the "business" of themselves and their parents. Beyond perhaps a few pages in project space for themselves, they don't particularly contribute to banner clutter or divisiveness, and should be recognized as what they apparently are, subordinate organizational entities of the parent project.

IIt should pointbe pointed out here that Iit would not include those entities which, whatever their name, are functionally still "subprojects" of a larger project. [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Sydney]], despite its name, is for all intents and purposes, at this point, a subproject of [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Australia]]. Such subprojects, should, I believe, be considered to be entirely and solely the "business" of themselves and their parents. Beyond perhaps a few pages in project space for themselves, they don't particularly contribute to banner clutter or divisiveness, and should be recognized as what they apparently are, subordinate organizational entities of the parent project.

==What to do with the rest of the WikiProjects?==

This question has, to this point, not yet been answered. My best answers, although they are not clearly the best answers, would be that, to a degree, these particular "ancillary" projects, considering that they are, in effect, being created on the basis of their being able to provide either greater focus or more concentrated effort than the larger "topical" etc. projects, should be held to living up to that goal. If they should become inactive or, after a considerable period of time, fail to bring any obvious improvement to the articles they seek to deal with, they can become eligible for deletion.

==What to do with theThe rest of the WikiProjects?==

Several of these projects have already been accused of "crufting" wikipedia with content which is, at best, dubiously qualified for inclusion. If it should become apparent that they are consistently contributing content which does not merit inclusion, or are not themselves contributing at all, then there would be no particularly reason for those projects to be kept, and they could be made at least eligible for deletion. Also, considering that they are, in a sense, "redundant" projects, I think it would make sense that their placement of a banner on a talk page is a de facto commitment to improve the attached article. So, if the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject 24]] were to place their banner on the [[Kiefer Sutherland]] page, it would indicate a real commitment from that group to improve and maintain the article according to wikipedia's standards. Should they fail to do so, then that could be seen as being a "strike" against the project, and potentially either the banner or the project itself could be removed if they should fail in this apparent commitment.

This question has, to this point, not yet been answered. MyOne besteditor's answers, although they aremay not clearly be the best answers, would be that, to a degree, these particular "ancillary" projects, considering that they are, in effect, being created on the basis of their being able to provide either greater focus or more concentrated effort than the larger "topical" etc. projectsProjects, should be held to living up to that goal. If they should become inactive or, after a considerable period of time, fail to bring any obvious improvement to the articles they seek to deal with, they can become eligible for deletion.

==The Future of Collaboration==

As can be perhaps concluded from the recent template added to the [[Wikipedia:Article Collaboration and Improvement Drive]] page tagging it as "historical", right now, it is fairly apparent that individual article collaboration is a thing of the past. Honestly, I don't think that should really surprise anybody. With the recent tendency, for better or worse, to break up content regarding a single "topic" into one or more articles to ensure that [[WP:Undue weight]] and other guidelines are adhered to, it is becoming increasingly the case that there no longer is a single article about any subject, but rather four or five articles, one dealing with the overarching topic, and the others dealing with various aspects of it. I think the time has come when, whether we agree with that individually or not, we should recognize that, and at the same time recognize that it is not necessarily a bad thing, just a change which we should adjust ourselves to. How would such adjustment be possible, though?

Several of these projects have already been accused of "crufting" wikipediaWikipedia with content which is, at best, dubiously qualified for inclusion. If it should become apparent that they are consistently contributing content which does not merit inclusion, or are not themselves contributing at all, then there would be no particularly reason for those projects to be kept, and they could be made at least eligible for deletion. Also, considering that they are, in a sense, "redundant" projects, I think it would make sense that their placement of a banner on a talk page is a ''de facto'' commitment to improve the attached article. So, if the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject 24]] were to place their banner on the [[Kiefer Sutherland]] page, it would indicate a real commitment from that group to improve and maintain the article according to wikipedia's standards. Should they fail to do so, then that could be seen as being a "strike" against the project, and potentially either the banner or the project itself could be removed if they should fail in this apparent commitment.

==The future of collaboration==

As can be perhaps concluded from the recent template added to the [[Wikipedia:Article Collaboration and Improvement Drive]] page tagging it as "historical", right now, it is fairly apparent that individual article collaboration is a thing of the past. Honestly, I don't think thatThat should really surprise anybody. With the recent tendency, for better or worse, to break up content regarding a single "topic" into one or more articles to ensure that [[WP:Undue weight]] and other guidelines are adhered to, it is becoming increasingly the case that there no longer is a single article about any subject, but rather four or five articles, one dealing with the overarching topic, and the others dealing with various aspects of it. I thinkPerhaps the time has come when, whether we agree with that individually or not, we should recognize that, and at the same time recognize that it is not necessarily a bad thing, just a change which we should adjust ourselves to. How would such adjustment be possible, though?

One option, perhaps not the best one, would be to use the three kinds of project "types" outlined above as the basis for future collaborations, which need not necessarily focus on a single individual article, but rather on however many articles there are or could/should be related to a given particular subject.

An example.:

Each month, or perhaps quarter, a geographic, disciplinary, and cultural WikiProject are chosen to be that period's collaborations. So, for this theoretical period, just for the purposes of having some names to deal with, [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Chad]], [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine]], and [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Theatre]] are chosen as the collaborations. Those interested in working on the collaborations would be asked to contribute content relative to their specialty to articles relating on the collaboration subjects, in whatever article or articles that content would most reasonably be placed. Thus, editors involved in Islam might add content to [[Islam in Chad]] or some similar article, articles on how medicine is viewed and practiced in Islam and Islamic individuals past and present involved in medicine, and content in articles on Islamic theatre, performers, and the like, as their part of the collaborations. Preferably, of course, all those involved in the collaboration would focus most of their attention on content of reasonable importance to either the titular "collaboration" project or their own project. By trying to bring developments in this way, I think we have a much better chance of getting real collaboration accomplished, as we won't be asking individuals to try to write articles away from their specific fields of interest, but rather to contribute content relative to their field of interest regarding certain subjects.

==Banner placement==

Possibly one of the most contentious issues out there is banner placement. If this model were to be observed, we would,

perhaps, effectively limit ourselves regarding most articles to only the the three types of projects above. While that might not limit the number of banners as much as some would like, I can and do see that there may well be a degree of consolidation in that regard as well, and amsome toeditors amay degreebe tryingwilling to help implement a few such changes myself. By following this model, and perhaps encouraging inactive projects to either merge into one of the projects from the three main areas above or being deleted if their pages provide no particular useful information for the future, we would help ensure that the article talk pages don't become too overburdened with banners, while at the same time not being too "warlike" and "dictatorial" regarding what would and would not qualify as a project.

==Response from editors==

I:''Responses wouldare welcome any responses. Also,The Iis knowan myopening writingstatement isthat atmay timesneed at least borderline incoherentimprovement. If there are any questions regarding what it is I am attempting to say in the above, please indicate as much and Ieditors will at least try to clarify''.

'''Sign all comments with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>'''

*This is basically an opening attempt to organiza all Wikiprojects. Why belabor the points. This has alreadt been ''de facto'' by/at [[:Category:WikiProjects]] so why the need to reinvent the wheel. From experience, Wikiprojects that are dormant or inactive for about a year are tagged as such with the {{tl|historical}} template and categorized at [[:Category:Inactive WikiProjects]]. Deleting Wikiprojects entirely is too radical and flies in the face of [[WP:NOT#PAPER]] as are many of the concerns above. [[User:IZAK|IZAK]] ([[User talk:IZAK|talk]]) 18:19, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I would welcome any responses. Also, I know my writing is at times at least borderline incoherent. If there are any questions regarding what it is I am attempting to say in the above, please indicate as much and I will at least try to clarify.