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::::::::Given your [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cloud_computing&diff=274878693&oldid=274821232 insistence] despite protests from two editors, consensus from various earlier discussions, lack of consensus here and my suggestion to "see where it goes", now would be a very good time for you to reveal any potential [[WP:COI|conflict of interest]]. I may have found some reliable sources to justify a mention but don't forget the [[WP:LUC|law of unexpected consequences]]. -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">[[User:SamJohnston|samj]] <small><sub><font color="maroon">[[User talk:Samj|in]]</font></sub><sup><font color="green">[[Special:Contributions/SamJohnston|out]]</font></sup></small></u> 09:09, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
== Definition of Cloud Computing ==
The very first sentence of this article is "Cloud computing is Internet-based ("cloud") development and use of computer technology ("computing").", which is not correct - "cloud" in no way implies "internet". Go read a whole bunch of blogs on the subject and you'll realize that no-one can agree on a definition of Cloud Computing right now - whether its internet only, whether its end-user services eg. gmail or an app runtime environment eg. Amazon. My own personal interpretation of the term is more fuzzy - just being that the computation/storage is done remotely from the client by a large pool of computers, and that the load can move around between all of those computers transparently - this could include enterprize applications run in a private datacenter and accessed on a LAN. I also think that the source of the first few sentances of this article is rediculous - its an old article from 1999 (before anyone had through of Cloud Computing), and is about the reasons that people use a cloud-shape to represent the internet on diagrams (btw - people use cloud-shapes to represent LAN's, WAN's, SAN's, cellular-networks, etc. on diagrams) - it has nothing at all to do with cloud computing, and referencing it as a source for an article about cloud computing is just plain dumb. -- [[Special:Contributions/192.197.128.19|192.197.128.19]] ([[User talk:192.197.128.19|talk]]) 20:14, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
: Well, [http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/04/07/15FE-cloud-computing-reality_1.html this article] gives this definition of Cloud Computing: ''Some analysts and vendors define cloud computing narrowly as an updated version of utility computing: basically virtual servers available over the Internet. Others go very broad, arguing anything you consume outside the firewall is "in the cloud," including conventional outsourcing.''. That doesn't really sound like it is including intranet-based distributed computing. Also, the start of the article is trying to explain the ''origins'' of the term "cloud" in this context, so referring to network diagram conventions seems appropriate. [[User:Letdorf|Letdorf]] ([[User talk:Letdorf|talk]]) 16:19, 13 January 2009 (UTC).
:: Thanks, agreed - the origins of the 'cloud' are both important and relevant. It is also well accepted, except perhaps by purveyors of "I can't believe it's not cloud" systems, that cloud computing is intrinsically linked with 'Internet' - anything else is a poor approximation and today virtually all of the stuff being discussed is [[vaporware]] or confined to labs anyway while Google Apps (as one example of many) has over 10 million active users. -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">[[User:SamJohnston|samj]] <small><sub><font color="maroon">[[User talk:Samj|in]]</font></sub><sup><font color="green">[[Special:Contributions/SamJohnston|out]]</font></sup></small></u> 01:03, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
:::''Internet based ''''development'''.... ''? This ''description'' does not make much sense, for most people "cloud based" means you can run applications in your browser that actually run on servers on the Internet, and can also save your data there. As such the introduction sentence is really crappy to say the least. It obfuscates what Cloud Computing is really about. [[User:Mahjongg|Mahjongg]] ([[User talk:Mahjongg|talk]]) 15:22, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
::::Agreed... see [[#Intro|the ongoing discussion below]]. [[User:Letdorf|Letdorf]] ([[User talk:Letdorf|talk]]) 15:40, 12 February 2009 (UTC).
:::::The vast majority of topics falling under the 'cloud computing' moniker are developer APIs, components (storage, database, queues, etc.), development platforms (azure, appengine, force.com, etc.), raw compute power (amazon ec2, gogrid, etc.), etc. This is what cloud computing "is really about" - "run[ning] applications in your browser" is called [[Software as a Service]] and is just part of the cloud computing landscape.
:::::Furthermore this is derived from the defintion of "computing" which is "development and use of computer technology". -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">[[User:SamJohnston|samj]] <small><sub><font color="maroon">[[User talk:Samj|in]]</font></sub><sup><font color="green">[[Special:Contributions/SamJohnston|out]]</font></sup></small></u> 17:40, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
::::::For the vast majority of people "cloud computing" has just a single meaning, and it has nothing to do with "development", that is just obfuscating the issue for most people. for the vast majority cloud computing means running your applications "on the cloud", and storing your data "in the cloud", or to quote ''"Cloud computing is an idea that what makes up your "personal computer" - your desktop, your apps, and your data, - can live and run on the Internet instead of on your hard drive."''. That is much more direct than all the techno-babble, here, and much more relevant to the normal users. All the obscure technical distractions are just that distractions. Sooner or later the definition of cloud computing has to follow mainstream usage. Just like the [[Application software]] article, there wont be any talk about its development, API's or Libraries, but what a software application '''does''', with "Cloud computing" it will be the same, people are not concerned how applications for cloud are developed, but what "Cloud computing" means for them, and what the immediate consequences are of its existence for them. For a "no nonsense" mainstream description of cloud computing you might want to watch this youTube video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hplXnFUlPmg] [[User:Mahjongg|Mahjongg]] ([[User talk:Mahjongg|talk]]) 20:21, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
::::::: The term "cloud computing" usually refers to the "virtual hardware" layer where a vendor supplies virtualized hardware and some minimum set of software (for example Xen on [http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/ ec<sup>2</sup>] or [http://code.google.com/appengine/kb/general.html#language Python on App Engine]). Critically, ''the customer'' must then install, maintain and deploy their own software on-demand. ''A "cloud computing" customer still must employ their own software administrator(s) to manage the customer software.''
::::::: In [[SaaS]] computing, on the other hand, ''the vendor employs the software administrator(s)'' to install, maintain and deploy all of the software. A SaaS vendor might possibly employ hardware administrators too depending on whether the SaaS vendor maintains their own hardware or uses someone else's "cloud".
::::::: Employment of software administrator's seems to be the Occam's razor that differentiates [[Cloud computing]] from [[SaaS]]. [[Web 2.0]] implementations are deployed using [[SaaS]] and [[SaaS]] in turn is deployed using [[Cloud computing]].
:::::::[[User:Mwarren us|sn‾uǝɹɹɐʍɯ]] ([[User talk:Mwarren us|talk]]) 01:48, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
::::::::Any references for these definitions? [[User:Letdorf|Letdorf]] ([[User talk:Letdorf|talk]]) 10:21, 27 February 2009 (UTC).
* Unindented
The vast majority of references to "cloud computing" are either high level passing references in the context of discussions about e.g. Google Apps or Salesforce.com or (more often than not) discussion about cloud computing "under the covers". A good example supporting this is that Salesforce.com has always been the number 1 example of SaaS, while "[http://force.com/ Force.com] is Cloud Computing for the Enterprise" (a developer only platform). Microsoft's horse in the cloud computing race is Azure - another developer only technology, and Google App Engine falles squarely under the "cloud computing" umbrella while Google Apps could be better classed SaaS (even if it sits on top of a cloud computing architecture).
In any case the "developer" component is by no means exclusive to the "user" component - indeed the disputed phrase, "development and use of computer technology", should keep both camps happy so this looks a lot like argument for the sake of it. -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">[[User:SamJohnston|samj]] <small><sub><font color="maroon">[[User talk:Samj|in]]</font></sub><sup><font color="green">[[Special:Contributions/SamJohnston|out]]</font></sup></small></u> 15:01, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
: A couple of references in response to [[User:Letdorf|Letdorf]]'s request:
:[http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/SMA/ispab/documents/minutes/2008-12/cloud-computing-industry-trends-FISMA_ISPAB-Dec2008_B-Whyman.pdf#page=3 Cloud Computing Information Security and Privacy Advisory Board, Bill Whyman, ISI - International Strategy and Investing]
:[http://blogs.idc.com/ie/?p=190 IDC definition of Cloud Computing]
:[http://www.slideshare.net/armchairtheorist/what-is-microsofts-cloud-computing-strategy-presentation/4 Sourced from Tim O'Reilly] and used in a presentation about Azure.
:[[User:Mwarren us|sn‾uǝɹɹɐʍɯ]] ([[User talk:Mwarren us|talk]]) 19:44, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
::Yes, the distinction between infrastructure and application is important, but the problem is that the terminology used in your references isn't consistent: you and ISI refer to "cloud computing" and "SaaS", IDC talk about "cloud computing" and "cloud services", O'Reilly talks about "utility computing", "PaaS" and "cloud-based applications". Also I think it's fair to say there's more to cloud infrastructure that just virtualization.
::I'm not sure what SamJ means by "developer only technology" - [[Windows Azure]] isn't a [[development environment]], it's a cloud services platform! Such platforms may not be directly visible to users (in much the same way as the internals of an OS, or any other "back-end" software, aren't) but it would be misleading to refer to them as "[[Software developer|developer]]" technologies. [[User:Letdorf|Letdorf]] ([[User talk:Letdorf|talk]]) 11:28, 3 March 2009 (UTC).
:::Take another look - Azure is of no interest whatsoever to users but the applications which use its components are; if one doesn't look at the components there's very little to say on the subject. It's very much a view of cloud computing as an "operating environment" of sorts, which is an increasingly popular view. -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">[[User:SamJohnston|samj]] <small><sub><font color="maroon">[[User talk:Samj|in]]</font></sub><sup><font color="green">[[Special:Contributions/SamJohnston|out]]</font></sup></small></u> 19:19, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
:::: [[User:Letdorf|Letdorf]], yes, cloud computing ontology is inconsistent and an open area of discussion/research. Here are some references (along with some great diagrams) that are sorting out the naming:
:::: * The most well researched appears to be [http://www.cs.ucsb.edu/~lyouseff/CCOntology/CloudOntology.pdf?page=4 Toward a Unified Ontology of Cloud Computing - Youseff, Butrico, DaSilva]<ref name="Youseff2009">{{cite web|url=http://www.cs.ucsb.edu/~lyouseff/CCOntology/CloudOntology.pdf?page=4|title=Toward a Unified Ontology of Cloud Computing|last=Youseff|first=Lamia - University of California, Santa Barbara|coauthors=Maria Butrico, Dilma DaSilva - IBM TJ Watson Research Center|publisher=Grid Computing Environments (GCE08)|language=English|date=2008-11|accessdate=2009-03-05}}</ref><ref name="Youseff2009Presentation">{{cite web|url=http://www.cs.ucsb.edu/~lyouseff/CCOntology/CloudOntologyPres.pdf|title=Toward a Unified Ontology of Cloud Computing (Presentation)|date=2008-11|last=Youseff|first=Lamia - University of California, Santa Barbara|coauthors=Maria Butrico, Dilma DaSilva - IBM TJ Watson Research Center|publisher=Grid Computing Environments (GCE08)|language=English|accessdate=2009-03-05|format=PDF}}</ref>
:::: * Cristofer Hoff has produced this very nice and well detailed diagram: [http://rationalsecurity.typepad.com/blog/2009/01/cloud-computing-taxonomy-ontology-please-review.html Cloud Taxonomy & Ontology - Draft 1.4 - Hoff]<ref name="Hoff2009">{{cite web|url=http://rationalsecurity.typepad.com/blog/2009/01/cloud-computing-taxonomy-ontology-please-review.html|title=Cloud Computing Taxonomy & Ontology :: Please Review|last=Hoff|first=Christofer|date=2009-02-10|language=English|accessdate=2009-03-05}}</ref>
:::: * And finally Kent Langley created a very approachable diagram in April 2008, but it does not include IaaS/PaaS layering under SaaS: [http://www.productionscale.com/home/2008/4/24/cloud-computing-get-your-head-in-the-clouds.html Cloud Computing: Get Your Head in the Clouds]<ref name="Langley2008">{{cite web|url=http://www.productionscale.com/home/2008/4/24/cloud-computing-get-your-head-in-the-clouds.html|title=Cloud Computing: Get Your Head in the Clouds|last=Langley|first=Kent|date=2008-04-24|publisher=Self|language=English|accessdate=2009-03-05}}</ref>
:::: [[User:Mwarren us|sn‾uǝɹɹɐʍɯ]] ([[User talk:Mwarren us|talk]]) 21:54, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
::::: The reason these diagrams haven't (yet) appeared here is, as you say, they're [[WP:OR|original research]]. That and they're [[Wikipedia:Make_technical_articles_accessible|too technical]]. Accordingly we've gone as far as we can without crossing over into OR by breaking what we know is cloud computing into half a dozen categories. Until we have something universally accepted (like the OSI Stack) there's not much more we can do - I'm expecting to see something like this emerge from one of the various standards efforts in 6-12 months and be adopted within 12-24. -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">[[User:SamJohnston|samj]] <small><sub><font color="maroon">[[User talk:Samj|in]]</font></sub><sup><font color="green">[[Special:Contributions/SamJohnston|out]]</font></sup></small></u> 22:13, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:::::: [[WP:NOR|No original research]] applies to using Wikipedia to publish original research, but the Youseff2008 paper was [http://www.cs.ucsb.edu/~lyouseff/resume.htm published as part of Grid Computing Environments (GCE08)]. I've updated the citation to include the publication info and added a reference for the presentation version. The other two diagrams (Langley, Hoff) might violate [[WP:SPS]] (investigation needed), however, other references you've already allowed in this article are of similar quality and so I figured I would mention them anyway. The diagrams in the article might also fall under the [[WP:SPS]] policy too. Oh and on the complexity - the Youseff2008 diagram is pretty simple as is Langley's; I agree that the Hoff diagram seems pretty complicated at first glance, but the colors help. [[User:Mwarren us|sn‾uǝɹɹɐʍɯ]] ([[User talk:Mwarren us|talk]]) 23:23, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
::::::: [[WP:SPS]] usually applies to sources written by the article subject - e.g. referencing a company web site, press release or interview in the same company's article to justify a statement like "XYZ is the biggest, baddest company in the industry". It's true that [[WP:OR]] applies to images which is exactly why we haven't been too creative as yet. As I say, when there's a consensus ontology we'll accept it but I think it's a while away yet... a lot of even the academic reports have been heavily criticised by the industry. The 3-layer SaaS, PaaS, IaaS option has got some traction but it doesn't go far enough while the others go too far. -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">[[User:SamJohnston|samj]] <small><sub><font color="maroon">[[User talk:Samj|in]]</font></sub><sup><font color="green">[[Special:Contributions/SamJohnston|out]]</font></sup></small></u> 02:06, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
::::::: Oh and by the way, [[Wikipedia:OR#Original_images|here's the policy]]. -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">[[User:SamJohnston|samj]] <small><sub><font color="maroon">[[User talk:Samj|in]]</font></sub><sup><font color="green">[[Special:Contributions/SamJohnston|out]]</font></sup></small></u> 02:08, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
::::::: I've been [re]reviewing these references today and it's interesting that IBM should be contributing to the paper given that the resulting diagram is rather incoherent (CaaS? DaaS? !?!?) and that they are [http://jhingran.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83432860e53ef0105358c5768970c-pi actually using] a stack almost identical to the one depicted in the article. -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">[[User:SamJohnston|samj]] <small><sub><font color="maroon">[[User talk:Samj|in]]</font></sub><sup><font color="green">[[Special:Contributions/SamJohnston|out]]</font></sup></small></u> 14:27, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
== Sun Microsystems? ==
In March 2006, Sun announced a Grid computing service that was very cloud-like and in many ways a precursor to what's happening in cloud today. Would this be worthy of mention in the History section? [[User:Russcastronovo|Russcastronovo]] ([[User talk:Russcastronovo|talk]]) 19:47, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
: Possibly, though if you're talking about [http://network.com network.com], that was recently pulled to undergo some sort of grid->cloud transition. -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">[[User:SamJohnston|samj]] <small><sub><font color="maroon">[[User talk:Samj|in]]</font></sub><sup><font color="green">[[Special:Contributions/SamJohnston|out]]</font></sup></small></u> 05:00, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
: The service sun provided was indeed at [http://network.com network.com]. It was a $1 per CPU per hour offering and wasn't particularly successful. It did, however, preceed Amazon's offering by a year or so. Would that make it worthy of a brief mention? [[Special:Contributions/192.18.43.225|192.18.43.225]] ([[User talk:192.18.43.225|talk]]) 21:01, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
: I don't think so, at least not until it reappears (at which time it may well give Amazon a run for their money). -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">[[User:SamJohnston|samj]] <small><sub><font color="maroon">[[User talk:Samj|in]]</font></sub><sup><font color="green">[[Special:Contributions/SamJohnston|out]]</font></sup></small></u> 00:44, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
:: I think Network.com is certainly worth mentioning as one of the first cloud vendors in a historic sense at least as a pioneer. [[User:Mwarren us|sn‾uǝɹɹɐʍɯ]] ([[User talk:Mwarren us|talk]]) 03:57, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
:::It was there when the system was live but not they've pulled it, presumably to move to xVM, the link went too. I don't feel too strongly about that either way. -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">[[User:SamJohnston|samj]] <small><sub><font color="maroon">[[User talk:Samj|in]]</font></sub><sup><font color="green">[[Special:Contributions/SamJohnston|out]]</font></sup></small></u> 04:37, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
== Criticism ==
Ok so it seems we get to have the 'criticism' discussion [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cloud_computing/Archive_1#Add_a_.22Criticism_of_cloud_computing.22_section.3F again]. This section is a crap magnet and was previously removed with good reason - Stallman's view is already in the article too: "Richard Stallman, founder of the Free Software Foundation, believes that cloud computing endangers liberties because users sacrifice their privacy and personal data to a third party.".
<blockquote>
There has been vocal critisism for cloud computing both for its role as a marketing term with little substance or novelty, and in terms of the privacy issues involved with it. [[GNU]] pioneer [[Richard Stallman]] had this to say: "It's stupidity. It's worse than stupidity: it's a marketing hype campaign."<ref name="stallman">{{cite news|url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/sep/29/cloud.computing.richard.stallman|title=Cloud computing is a trap, warns GNU founder Richard Stallman|last=Johnson|first=Bobbie|date=2008-09-29|work=[[The Guardian]]|accessdate=2009-02-05}}</ref>
Other major figures of the computer industry agreed, with [[Larry Ellison]] of [[Oracle Corporation]] commenting that: "The interesting thing about cloud computing is that we've redefined cloud computing to include everything that we already do. I can't think of anything that isn't cloud computing with all of these announcements. The computer industry is the only industry that is more fashion-driven than women's fashion. Maybe I'm an idiot, but I have no idea what anyone is talking about. What is it? It's complete gibberish. It's insane. When is this idiocy going to stop?"<ref name="ellison">{{cite web|url=http://news.cnet.com/8301-13953_3-10052188-80.html|title=Oracle's Ellison nails cloud computing|last=Farber|first=Dan|date=2008-09-26|work=[[CNet News]]|accessdate=2009-02-05}}</ref></blockquote>
It's worth mentioning that the comments from both RMS and Ellison don't necessarily reflect the views of the community or Oracle respectively, and that oracle has since launched the 'Oracle Cloud Computing Center':
<blockquote>Continuing its pioneering role in shaping enterprise computing, Oracle is pleased to introduce new offerings that allow enterprises to benefit from the developments taking place in the area of Cloud Computing. As a part of our initial offering, Oracle has partnered with Amazon Web Services (AWS) environment to offer the following products and services:
Deploy Oracle Software in the Cloud
Backup Oracle Database in the Cloud
These offerings may be extended to other Cloud platforms in the future.</blockquote>
Please integrate legitimate criticisms into e.g. the [[Cloud_computing#Key_characteristics|key characteristics]] section. -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">[[User:SamJohnston|samj]] <small><sub><font color="maroon">[[User talk:Samj|in]]</font></sub><sup><font color="green">[[Special:Contributions/SamJohnston|out]]</font></sup></small></u> 13:29, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
:Removing sourced information this way is rarely a good idea. While the information gives what appears to be [[WP:UNDUE|undue weight]] to these opinions, removing them completely is just as problematic. Can the information be incorporated more sparingly into other sections of the article? --[[User:Ronz|Ronz]] ([[User talk:Ronz|talk]]) 15:57, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
::Agreed. Tell that to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cloud_computing&diff=269114158&oldid=268683229 these guys]. Anyway the RMS comment was already incorporated into the article before the section was added and the Ellison comment was [http://www.circleid.com/posts/89261_oracle_larry_ellison_cloud_computing/ largely BS] when it was said and now [http://www.crn.com/software/210603480 not at all reflective] of the company's position on cloud computing - people change their minds you know :)
::Anyway my main problem is that sections like this instantly attract rubbish in much the same way as the 'new and improved' intro did. I'll integrate it when I have a spare second (unless you care to do it yourself) but life calls right now. -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">[[User:SamJohnston|samj]] <small><sub><font color="maroon">[[User talk:Samj|in]]</font></sub><sup><font color="green">[[Special:Contributions/SamJohnston|out]]</font></sup></small></u> 13:08, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
:::The Manual of Style doesn't like them either: {{tl|criticism section}} -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">[[User:SamJohnston|samj]] <small><sub><font color="maroon">[[User talk:Samj|in]]</font></sub><sup><font color="green">[[Special:Contributions/SamJohnston|out]]</font></sup></small></u> 04:54, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
== First use of a cloud picture ==
The first time I saw a picture of a "cloud" being used as an abstraction for a complex networked system was for the [[Public switched telephone network]], so the concept of the picture of a "cloud" for an abstract network is far older than many might think. [[User:Mahjongg|Mahjongg]] ([[User talk:Mahjongg|talk]]) 23:34, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
: Yeah it's been around for a while. I tried to find a good network diagram with a cloud to illustrate this point a while back, but there were none. As you can see I've finally created something a bit more suitable than the infamous "The Cloud" placeholder image. -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">[[User:SamJohnston|samj]] <small><sub><font color="maroon">[[User talk:Samj|in]]</font></sub><sup><font color="green">[[Special:Contributions/SamJohnston|out]]</font></sup></small></u> 04:36, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
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