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::::See [[Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]]. --[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]] ([[User talk:Gadget850|talk]]) 11:19, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
== Category:Wikipedia pages with broken references ==
Only letters M, P, R and S have a backlog in the category now. All other articles appearing under different letters should be seen to immediately and with relative ease. [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]] ([[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|talk]]) 23:35, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Are you the editor who has been working so hard on this category? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 02:36, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
But believe me that "with relative ease" is not true. There are close to 50 new articles in this category every day, in my experience. Some are just new articles, some are older articles (sometimes suprisingly old) that just got their first reference, some are the result of vandalism, while others are the result of some hard to find cause (I mentioned one above in the section References after {{tl|reflist}}). [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 02:42, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
:I've been tackling a number of new and old articles in the category to trim it down, but I don't think I'm the only one. I think it's easier to do newer ones rather than older ones because it is very obvious where the problem arose in the edit history – something not so obvious in the more-backlogged articles. Really, I suppose you need at least three editors to tackle this category just each day alone.
:I have to say that I've gotten to see the real dregs of WP's articles here, even more so than when I helped out on the eternal copyedit backlog. I feel quite guilty that I don't resolve other problems (e.g. wikifying) in those articles at the same but to do that would turn this into a full-time thing; I know my talents lie in writing content more than correcting it. The backlog should be reaching a more manageable level at this rate, so soon we shouldn't be finding articles that were last edited in January 2007! [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]] ([[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|talk]]) 04:15, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
:: Well, have a look at [[User_talk:Debresser#Broken_references|my talk page]] that I've been working on this category also, for quite some time now. Starting methodically, then quicker, and suddenly noticing some other editor is doing a lot of work there also. So that was you. Thank you.
:::We currently have 127, with perhaps 20-30 with a template problem. Looks like there's more to get on with! [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]] ([[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|talk]]) 03:43, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
:: You're right about the new articles being easier to tackle, but I do try to help out wikifying, etc. wherever I can.
:: As you can see on my talk page, I do a daily round of some eight maintenance categories, so your help, any help, especially on a more or less daily basis, is much appreciated. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 09:37, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
:::Look like you've been doing a lot of stuff! Excellent work. This kind of "grunt" maintenance work gets backlogged so easily. I got involved here after maybe the fourth or fifth time I saw the broken refs warning and wondered just how many articles had the same problem. Readers should hardly ''ever'' see this unless they broke something themselves. It's just plain ugly. I might look into the other categories at some point too. Cheers. [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]] ([[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|talk]]) 13:12, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
:::: The others are all empty (except for 1 template loop and 7 unsourced categories that are indeed hard to prove). [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 14:28, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
::::: [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]] has emptied the category: CONGRATULATIONS! <small>(unsigned)</small>[[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]])
::::::I think that was more of a joint effort! That was quite some going given that when I first saw the category there were over one thousand in there. Excellent stuff and thanks. [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]] ([[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|talk]]) 01:33, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
:::: Let's not fix any articles for 24 hours. You have a look in another 24 hours (I'll be out, so it's up to you), and tell us how many articles there are. I guess some 50-60 articles. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 02:01, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
:::::Sure. I'd like to see how many pile up here. As long as no one else is knowingly cleaning the cat, then we should be able to work out the average per day, and the average time needed to fix those problems. [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]] ([[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|talk]]) 02:22, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
:::: I found some 124. Fixed about 50 of them (including all templates, which have now been added upon my request). [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 22:09, 15 April 2009 (UTC) The three templates left are also fixed, but they are edit-protected and are waiting for the job-queue or a null-edit by an admin. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 02:21, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
:::::Why have all those templates suddenly appeared just now? [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]] ([[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|talk]]) 01:09, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
::::::Because the previous namespace detection was only for main/articles. Messages now only show on main, template, category, help and file pages. It is now possible to create a custom message for each namespace— we could automatically add {{tl|Reflist}} for templates. --[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]] ([[User talk:Gadget850|talk]]) 03:31, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
:::::::That sounds like a good idea. They're drowning out the articles which actually need reflists. [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]] ([[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|talk]]) 17:44, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
::::::No need, I'll fix them. Trying this automatically is not a good idea, because often the problem is another one, and because usually you need to add the {{tl|Reflist}} on the documentation page. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 21:04, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Fair enough. I'm not going to do any more because frankly I think it's a waste of my time. The fact of whether any of these templates "issues" are actually problematic (as it is on articles) is highly debatable. [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]] ([[User talk:Sillyfolkboy|talk]]) 22:09, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
:::::: Ha! That was before I had a look and saw that we have about 750 of them. And I noticed many of them don't have a documentation page. So I'm in favor of bot work. Frankly, I hadn't expected that many.
By the way, [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]], why don't you use the text from [[Help:Cite errors]], which reads
<pre>
<noinclude>
== References ==
''This reference list does not appear in the article.''
{{Reflist}}
</noinclude>
</pre>
? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 02:28, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
:Do you use AWB? --[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]] ([[User talk:Gadget850|talk]]) 03:11, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
:: No, I don't. It probably wouldn't work on my PC. I have XP with IE6. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 03:14, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
:::If anyone thinks it useful, we can put templates into a separate category. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup>'' 12:47, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
:: I don't see any point. Sounds like [[red tape]] to me. Just as [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Wikipedia_pages_with_broken_references&diff=284796432&oldid=284066739 this] adding of a category page to itself. What do you say we remove both the one you added ''and'' the one that was there before? It is a maintenance category, and as such doesn't need all these niceties that are sometimes made to make searching or cataloging easier. If not my personal respect for you I would have kicked it out a mile far. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 14:10, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
:::It was in [[:Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]] to begin with, but I removed it when I was trying to figure out why pages with missing reference tags were in both categories and forgot to put it back. It needs to be in some category, so I added it to [[:Category:Wikipedia references cleanup]]. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup>'' 16:36, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
:::: That was a superb idea. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 19:02, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
So is there a bot that can add a refsection to all templates? If there are any broken references, the templates shows up later in the other category and I fix it anyways. That's what happened with [[Template:2007_in_Australian_television_-_Ending_this_year]] to which [[User:Sillyfolkboy|Sillyfolkboy]] added a refsection and I spent about half an hout to fix it and a few other related templates with broken refs. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 14:32, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
:See [[Help talk:Cite errors/Archive 2009#Bot Help]]. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 18:25, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
:: I talked to him. He's a little busy at the moment. There's another one I'm talkingto, and a third one who's doing another bot now on a permanent basis with great success whom I could also talk to. We'll see. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 05:30, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
I now have AWB. And fixed my first three templates with it. Had some trouble because I started on a low screen resolution. I think using AWB is a relatively easy way to add a references section. Any advice? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 23:49, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
== MediaWiki:Cite error group refs without references ==
I see [[MediaWiki:Cite error refs without references]] has namespace detection and a category, while [[MediaWiki:Cite error group refs without references]] doesn't. Is there any reason for this, or was it just forgotten? [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 11:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
:Already in discussion at [[#RE: Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]] and [[Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]]. --[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]] ([[User talk:Gadget850|talk]]) 12:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
:: I see no mention of this particular issue in either place. It looks like you just forgot to make the changes to both templates. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 13:14, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
:::*Actually Happy-melon made the namespace change to remove the "Cite error: There are {{tag|ref|open}} tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{tag|references|single}} tag" generated by [[MediaWiki:Cite error refs without references]] from talk pages after discussion at VP.
:::*We have had no discussion on removing the other messages from talk pages until now.
:::*Note that the [[:Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]] is transcluded by {{tl|broken ref}} that is included in [[MediaWiki:Cite error]].
:::--[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]] ([[User talk:Gadget850|talk]]) 13:40, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
:::: My point is that there are two messages for the "ref tag without references" error, and it seems odd that one puts pages in [[:Category:Wikipedia pages with broken references]] and the other doesn't. I don't actually care much about the namespace detection. [[User:Anomie|Anomie]][[User talk:Anomie|⚔]] 15:22, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
:::::I went out in the weeds on that one and totally missed your point. We probably had no messages due to ''Cite error group refs without references'' and just did not think to update it. I don't see a problem in updating it to work like the other. --[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]] ([[User talk:Gadget850|talk]]) 16:05, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
See my proposal [[Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting|there]], which namespace to include and which not. And see [[#Talk pages|above]] that I made precisely the same proposal for [[MediaWiki:Cite error refs without references]] as for [[MediaWiki:Cite error group refs without references]]. I don't see any reason to make them work differently. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 15:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
:I thought this was going to be hard until I found {{tl|namespace detect showall}}. [[MediaWiki:Cite error group refs without references]] will now show only on main (article), template, category, help and file (image) namespaces.
:So now <ref group="abc">abc</ref>
<pre><ref group="abc">abc</ref></pre>
:no longer generates a message on talk pages. --[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]] ([[User talk:Gadget850|talk]]) 15:52, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. I'll work on them. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 19:26, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
::I am going to update {{tl|broken ref}} so we can control the namespace detection from one point. This way, if we change our minds on what namespace should be used, we can change it in one place. --[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]] ([[User talk:Gadget850|talk]]) 20:22, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
:::And it was added in November but got broken in January. Gotta untangle this. --[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]] ([[User talk:Gadget850|talk]]) 20:48, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
I saw in [[:Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting]] a few pages like [[Category talk:Mottos]] or [[File talk:Snow leopard range.png]]. I can fix them, but I though talk pages weren't supposed to show up. Not to mention a Wikipedia page[[Wikipedia:Articles for creation/2008-03-27]]. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 23:52, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
:This was what all of the discussion was about: what pages to exclude. I updated {{tl|broken ref}} and applied it to each message— it now controls the namespace. Messages now only show on main, template, category, help and file pages. To add or remove namespaces, we now only need to change {{tl|broken ref}}. If you visit those pages and purge, the message and category will be gone. --[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]] ([[User talk:Gadget850|talk]]) 00:31, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I didn't write before trying that. But yes, it's fixed now. Thanks. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 01:35, 16 April 2009 (UTC) I fixed a few more templates, but I'll wait with the big work till the job queue removed all talk pages, portals and Wikipedia pages. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 03:05, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Somebody fixed almost all templates under the letter "T". I fixed a few new stray ones and the last ca. 25 he had left. Could you please fix [[Template:HighDefMediaComparison]]. It's editprotected. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 04:37, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
:Done. --[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]] ([[User talk:Gadget850|talk]]) 11:15, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
By the way, do you know why some templates are listed under the letter "T", but a few under the first letter of their name (e.g. [[Template:Broken ref]] in [[:Category:Wikipedia pages with broken references]], which is listed under the letter "B")? [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 01:35, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
:The message puts the page in the category using <nowiki>{{PAGENAME}}</nowiki>, which uses the name without "Template:". I don't see any listed under T that should not be there. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup>'' 18:38, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
:: That's because I cleaned them all out. :) [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 19:02, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
== [[:Category:Articles with broken or outdated citations]] & [[:Category:Wikipedia pages with broken references]] ==
Should these categories be combined? They seem be similar issues.--<i><font color="#9966FF">[[User:BirgitteSB|Birgitte]]</font><font color="#CC99CC" size="2">SB</font></i> 16:27, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
:No. The first is populated by adding {{tl|citations broken}} to an article with a bunch of dead links. The second is populated automatically when cite.php generates an error message. --[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]] ([[User talk:Gadget850|talk]]) 16:35, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
== Namespace control ==
Now that the messages for malformed {{tag|ref}} tags use {{tl|broken ref}}, we can generate a different message based on the namespace. Since the message includes the category, this means that we could show the error on a talk page, but not place it in the tracking category.
The two messages for missing {{tag|references|single}} don't use {{tl|broken ref}} since they use a different category. We could add a message that would show only on talk pages that would include the {{tl|reflist}}.
--[[User:Gadget850|Gadget850]] ([[User talk:Gadget850|talk]]) 11:42, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
== Template cite error message ==
I think the message now used for cite error "problems" on templates (i.e. those cases where footnoted sources are included without a <nowiki></references> or {{reflist}} </nowiki> tag) is poorly worded. It currently reads:
:== References ==
:''This reference list does not appear in the article.''
with a list of the template's footnotes following.
The problem with this is two-fold. First, because some editors working to "clean up" templates are now adding this wording directly to template documentation, it gives the appearance that the template itself is somehow at fault (probably principally because the words "the article" are used). Second, it does not give the editor any direction as to what to do to correct the problem.
I would like to suggest that the wording on this "cite error" message be changed to read :
:''Unless a <nowiki><references/> or {{Reflist}}</nowiki> tag is added to articles calling the [fill in the name here] template, the following footnotes will not appear.''
This would 1) make clear what footnotes will display (thus allowing editors to verify that they are correct) and 2) make clear what an editor needs to do to eliminate any display problem. [[User:MeegsC|MeegsC]] | [[User talk:MeegsC|Talk]] 22:16, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi. It's not "some editors", it's me. :)
I agree with [[User:MeegsC|MeegsC]] that the wording is ambiguous. As I explained to him on [[User_talk:Debresser#Reference_list|my talk page]] the meaning is indeed that '''this list''' will ''not'' appear in any article using the template, but the '''references''' themselves ''will''. I don't see how this could be expressed better.
The formulation he suggests here is also not good, because if indeed no references section will be made in the article, that will lead to an error message. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 21:00, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
:What do you mean by "this list" above Debresser? I think that's where my confusion comes in. To me, "this list" means "this list of things that follows". [[User:MeegsC|MeegsC]] | [[User talk:MeegsC|Talk]] 11:49, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
:: "This list" means the references list as it is on that template page. Which is ''not'' included with the template. To make it easier for you to understand, you must differentiate between the template page and the template itself. The page '''is not''' the template. And that is precisely the point being made. The list is part of the template ''page'', but not of the template itself, and does not get transcluded with it, but the references themselves do. Anyways, as I said before, whatever way you turn it, it's going to be ambiguous. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 14:16, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
:::I guess my point is that the message ''as it stands'' is completely incomprehensible to some of us; I'm afraid that some of us mere editors (and at least one template writer) would not intuitively understand that by "this list" you mean the references list '''on the template page only'''. Because that list '''is''' part of the article which calls the template: for example [[Template:Spheniscidae list header]] is called by [[List of birds of Madagascar]]. And right down there at the bottom, in the references section—lo and behold, there are the references ''which come from the template''. So the message, as it currently stands, is unclear—at least to me, but then perhaps I'm just thicker than the average editor! : ) However, the message also does nothing to tell an editor ''what to do to fix a reference problem'', which is presumably how these templates came up on your radar screen in the first place. I think we need to find a better solution! [[User:MeegsC|MeegsC]] | [[User talk:MeegsC|Talk]] 17:00, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
:::: Ok. No problem. Just that your proposals so far were either worse or just as ambiguous. But as soon as another ''good'' proposal comes up, I'll embrace it with both hands. In the mean time I think the present formulation is ambiguous but correct. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 19:02, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
== Archives ==
Where are the archives from older discussions? I didn't find all of them in the links at the top of the page. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 10:44, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
:[[Help talk:Cite errors/Archive 2009]] is linked, and is the only archive for this page. What don't you see? ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 11:03, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
:: I see, thanks. I pressed show and saw 2 bullets with WikiMedia archives. I didn't even notice the link to "2009", without the bullet. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 11:16, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
:::The years will normally fill across the line, separated by a middot. The other pages are from the message pages where there were discussions before we redirected all of the talk pages here. ---'''''— [[User:Gadget850|<span style="color:gray">Gadget850 (Ed)</span>]]<span style="color:darkblue"> '''''</span><sup>[[User talk:Gadget850|''talk'']]</sup> 11:28, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
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