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MiszaBot I (talk | contribs) m Archiving 2 thread(s) from Talk:IB Diploma Programme. |
MiszaBot I (talk | contribs) m Archiving 2 thread(s) from Talk:IB Diploma Programme. |
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::Uncle G went AWOL months ago. I don't need his help rewriting it. I am quite capable of re-writing it except you would fight whatever I wrote tooth and nail. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 00:09, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
== "Certificate programme" and "college-preparatory" ==
I'm very sorry that you seem terribly "put-out" that I changed the word "demanding" to "college-preparatory". If you want to add some sort of quote regarding "demanding" in the Reception section, then by all means. Be my guest. Demanding is an opinion. It doesn't belong in the overview. College preparatory is a factual description of the program. It is not only billed by IB this way, but viewed by major universities as such. Adding 4 citations after your change shows extreme.... I don't even know what.... . [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 00:09, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
And please explain what your problem is with the link to the Locust Valley IB Certificate Program. Your reason for adding a link claiming it's not mentioned that we can't read is, wait, I'm digging deep here....no....can't come up with anything....I give up..... what? [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 00:16, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
Ooooo, "unofficial". I like it. You leave that in there Pointillist. Even though IB Representatives and school administrators sell this dog and pony show as "official", you're claiming it's not? Fine by me. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 00:20, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
Yo - dude - what's with the hyperventilating with citations? It's obnoxious! [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 00:25, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:I've added more references around "Certificate Programme", and I've moved "demanding" down the the same para, because it looks like they sit well together. I don't have any problem with the Locust Valley reference—I simply added the "publisher=" field to the {{tl|cite web}} template for completeness.
:Unfortunately the phrase "college-preparatory" doesn't mean the same thing in all anglophone territories: outside the United States and Ireland it often refers institutions between school and university: you enter college at 16/17 so an IB programme finishing at age 18/19 could not be "college-preparatory". Perhaps I should have made this clearer: I'm sorry if I offended you unnecessarily in that respect.
::To illustrate the ambiguity of "college", someone could study at [[Kew College]] school (age 3-11), then at [[King's College School]], [[King's College (Hong Kong)]] or [[King's College (Guildford)]] (age up to 18), before becoming an undergraduate at [[King's College, Cambridge]], [[The King's College (California)]] or [[King's College, University of Queensland]] - [[User:Pointillist|Pointillist]] ([[User talk:Pointillist|talk]]) 01:11, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
:Apparently "Certificate Programme" is not a phrase used on the IBO website, and I didn't find it when running a local file search on the Diploma Programme Guide CD, so it is unofficial. Given that it isn't an official phrase it needs the weight of multiple citations. We now have six of them which should convince any sceptical editor that we have done our homework. This is important because according to the statistics there's a very large number of students who do certificates rather then the full IBDP, and we must address this to ensure the IB series is well-balanced. If there's verifiable evidence of IBO or school representatives misleading consumers that local "Certificate Programmes" have official weight, that should be clearly explained in the article too. Believe me, I am not an IB student, teacher or administrator; I only want to report unambiguous encyclopedic facts and I do not have a hidden agenda about the IBDP. - [[User:Pointillist|Pointillist]] ([[User talk:Pointillist|talk]]) 00:46, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
::Forget to say that in respect of "college-preparatory" please can you take a look at Wikipedia's [[College]] article where it explains about the ambiguity. If you accept the issue, please edit the lead accordingly. Thanks - [[User:Pointillist|Pointillist]] ([[User talk:Pointillist|talk]]) 00:59, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
:::Pointillist - Thank you for your explanations. I can tell you first hand that school administrators are billing the ''Certificate Program'' in public schools as a means of pumping up the IB numbers to try and make the program look plausible. I don't even know if the article is still online, but at Locust Valley for example, a school with only 650 students grades 9-12, the district announced that it had "892 IB '''seats filled'''". They also tried to double-count the number of IB exams given because they are given over two days and then used for a "rankling ratio" in Newsweek magazine. They also boasted that "Over 80% of the students (class of 160) are taking at least one IB class!" Yet only 20 students were full DP, of those only 10 earned the actual diploma (50%) and then another 4 got it "on appeal".
:::I apologize if I was hard on you, but rabid IB supporters want certain information suppressed. Your concern about using the phrase "college-preparatory" is valid, but very UK-centric. My reason for choosing this phrase is because AP exams are considered "college-level". The number of college credits awarded AP in the U.S. almost always exceeds the college credits awarded IB, especially when you consider that the vast majority of better universities don't recognize SL exams. In a way, this goes back to the misinformation provided to parents about being a Certificate Candidate, like it is some kind of honor instead of just an expensive relabeling of a former Honors course. So while I am amenable to eliminating "college-preparatory" altogether, I am not amenable to replacing it with "demanding" in the overview. Thanks. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 10:18, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::::If what ObserverNY is saying about Locust Valley is true, then it seems to me that we should not be using it as a source, since the information they provide is not accurate, valid or verifiable. As far as I know, there is no such thing as a "certificate programme," but there are certificate candidates, as Pointillist explained above. In the Peterson book, he talks about someone suggesting that there be an alternative to the full Diploma, which may be too difficult for some students. The certificate also serves as a safety net for students who don't get the Diploma, so it's not "all or nothing." Most IB schools encourage the full Diploma first and allow students to take IB courses as certificate candidates if the student is unwilling or unable to pursue or complete the full Diploma. There are also some schools that offer only the full IB Diploma, like in Florida, for example.
::::As for "college-preparatory," that phrase is ambiguous. In France, ''collège'' is middle school or junior high. And Pointillist explained what it means in other parts of the world. "Pre-university" is clearer. "Demanding, rigorous and challenging" are all words that have been used to describe the IBDP as well. If we are going to include the piece about the "certificate programme" with several sources listed after it, then we can do the same for the description of the IBDP.
::::[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 12:26, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::What do you mean "if it is true" and "not accurate, valid or verifiable"? Locust Valley is an IB World School. If it has run an invalid program for '''5 years''' where is IB's accountability? You want 5 or 6 references to IB schools that offer the IB Certificate Programme? I'll be happy to locate them.
:::::Pre-university is not "clearer". All high school courses are pre-university. Rigorous, challenging and demanding are ALL adjectives which are opinion. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 12:44, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::::::I didn't say the Locust Valley IBDP was invalid. I said that according to ObserverNY, the information they provide on their website is inaccurate (there is no such thing as a "certificate programme.") There is no way we can prove that what ObserverNY is saying is true about their statistical reports.
::::::Since "pre-university" applies to all high school courses, then a word such as "challenging, demanding or rigorous" should be used as a modifier of the phrase "pre-university" to distinguish the IBDP from less difficult HS courses. I'd be happy to provide sources that describe the IBDP in a similar fashion. In fact, I am sure they are already used in the article.
::::::[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 13:10, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::If there is no such thing as an IB ''Certificate Program'' then IB is fraudulently collecting money from all of the following schools in addition to LVCSD:
:::::::http://www.georgeschool.org/Academics/International%20Baccalaureate%20Program/IB%20Certificate%20Program.aspx
:::::::http://www.aislusaka.org/AboutUs/dp.html
:::::::http://www.jwnorth.org/academics/ib/ib_certificate.html
:::::::http://www.mkis.edu.my/pdf/IBDiploma.pdf
:::::::http://moodle.lethsd.ab.ca/wchsweb/images/stories/pdf/2008Welcome/ib2008.pdf
:::::::http://central.spps.org/information/counseling/gifted_talented/IB.html
:::::::http://www.dwight.edu/academics/dp/DPAssandTesting.html
:::::::http://www.gwinnett.k12.ga.us/NorcrossHS/ib/Documents/IB_Application_Packet_for_Rising_Juniors_2009-10.rev1.8.pdf
:::::::http://www.andersonptsa.com/index.php/ib-program/
:::::::http://www.holytrinity.ecsd.net/ib3.htm
:::::::And AGAIN, your opinionated "modifiers" do NOT belong in the overview, I don't care how many biased sources you can locate. The article is NOT an advertisement for the IBDP. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 13:25, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
Please try to avoid sensationalistic language. IB is not being fraudulent. Just checked the link you provided for the Dwight School. Did not find any reference to "certificate programme." That is not really supporting your "theory." [[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 13:33, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
:No mention of "certificate programme" here either-http://www.andersonptsa.com/index.php/ib-program/ Now who is being fraudulent?
:[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 13:37, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::LaMome - Do you have a reading comprehension problem? Seriously, you DARE to accuse ME of being '''fraudulent''' because you can't read? Read the admissions process for Sophomores/January at http://www.andersonptsa.com/index.php/ib-program/
:::::::Now re-check the Dwight School (a very expensive private school in NYC) mentions Certificate Program '''3x'''. As to "proof" of LVCSD's propaganda, I came up with a 2006 publication which boasts 50% participation - I'll keep looking for the subsequent one which had the even higher percentage which I recall of 80% - http://lvweb.lvcsd.k12.ny.us/dnews/December%202006%20News%20LV.pdf
::::::::Please try to avoid your tendentious habit of lecturing me as to my choice of language.[[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 13:45, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:(edit conflict)
:In some schools, there is such a thing as a "certificate program," but according to IB there is no such thing as a "certificate programme." Taking one or more IB courses is not a programme. That doesn't make the schools fraudulent, nor does it make IB fraudulent. There are plenty of schools that offer "AP" courses and "AP" programs, where students take the course and then never sit for the exam. That makes the school fraudulent. Where is the College Board's accountability?
:[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 13:50, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
::LaMome - Just admit you are wrong and apologize for your accusation. The article is about IB, not AP. In the United States which hosts over 1/3 of all IB schools, we spell program - program. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 13:59, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::Well, if it is an official IB Programme, then please provide evidence of that "fact."
:::[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 14:02, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
::::(Ahem)'''No mention of "certificate programme" here either-http://www.andersonptsa.com/index.php/ib-program/ Now who is being fraudulent? La mome (talk) 13:37, 16 August 2009 (UTC)'''
:::: Sorry, you don't get to weasel out of this sort of malicious attack without an apology. I'll keep re-pasting it until you do. Furthermore, I'm perfectly content with allowing Pointillist's wording of it being an "unofficial" program to stand.[[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 14:06, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::::(edit conflict)
:::::"50% participation" in the IBDP means full Diploma candidates plus certificate candidates. There is nothing fraudulent about that.
:::::[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 14:10, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::"'''Furthermore, I'm perfectly content with allowing Pointillist's wording of it being an "unofficial" program to stand" --which is exactly my point.'''
::::::[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 14:14, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::You have a point? Really? <s>I don't think so.</s> What exactly is it, other than to be argumentative about EVERYTHING?
::::::I didn't SAY that citing 50% participation was "fraudulent". I said the district is using claims of participation in its IB Certificate Program as bogus PR to attempt to justify IB, as per Pointillist's comment earlier. Let me refresh your memory: ''This is important because according to the statistics there's a very large number of students who do certificates rather then the full IBDP, and we must address this to ensure the IB series is well-balanced. If there's verifiable evidence of IBO or school representatives misleading consumers that local "Certificate Programmes" have official weight, that should be clearly explained in the article too.''-Pointillist.
::::::'''No mention of "certificate programme" here either-http://www.andersonptsa.com/index.php/ib-program/ Now who is being fraudulent? La mome (talk) 13:37, 16 August 2009 (UTC)''' - Retract your accusation. The reference is there. You are wrong and attacking me in BAD FAITH. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 14:23, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::::::Sure, I'll apologise. When you apologise to me for attempting to out me and to all of the editors here for deleting entire passages during one of your hissy fits. I still don't see "certificate programme" 3X on the page you linked for the Dwight school and I didn't see it on the andersonptsa in the initial descriptive paragraphs of the IBDP. I didn't scroll all the way down, or look on other links. You need to copy and paste the references on the talk page as a courtesy to fellow editors if your point is imbedded in the link. My accusation was not in bad faith. And the whole point is moot, since we actually agree that "certificate program" is not official IB terminology.
:::::::[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 15:01, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::::That's no apology and I need to do no such thing. Try again. There's something seriously wrong with you if you think it's MY fault that YOU didn't scroll down and can't read. There's no need to travel to other "links". It's right there on both pages you accused me of listing "fraudulently". (Btw, you did agree to a [[WP:TRUCE]] which you broke, so your issuance of a "conditional" apology is truly distasteful.) [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 15:51, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
== Proposed new section ==
In my view the issues on the discussion should in fact be part of the article. I'd propose a section before the "History" section defining the IB, what it is and what it is not. Included in that section would be nomenclature with a explanation of the IB DP candidate, the certificate, and the fact that some schools are IB DP only, whereas others include the IB DP candidates and certificate candidates together in the nomenclature. Also the purpose of the section would be to define the aim of the IB DP, again with an explanation that in various regions of the world different nomenclature is used such as "college level" or "university qualification." Furthermore, I'd suggest working on such a section in a sandbox rather than in mainspace. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 16:24, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
:If you want to attempt this, definitely do it in a sandbox. I'm not entirely convinced that what we've seen in the discussion can be done properly with sources, but there's no harm in trying. — [[User:HelloAnnyong|'''<span style="color: #aaa">Hello</span><span style="color: #666">Annyong</span>''']] <sup>[[User_talk:HelloAnnyong|(say whaaat?!)]]</sup> 16:26, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
::That's an interesting proposal, Truthkeeper. It is true that there are some IB schools which require students to do the full diploma, in fact, ISA Singapore is an excellent example where only 1 student out of a class of 402 failed to earn the Diploma. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 16:33, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::I agree with HelloAnnyong: the problem is whether sources exist to support such a section without veering into OR. When I have time, I'll see what I can find. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 16:41, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
::::Great idea Truthkeeper. We might also include definitions for "Anticipated" candidates and subjects as well, since I've run into that on the group 3 page and it should be included, with an explanation, including difference between SL and HL. So much info to include, so little time.
::::[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 21:36, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::Oh yes, I'd LOVE to see a definition of what an "Anticipated Certificate Candidate" is - especially since every student who takes an IB exam, SL or HL, will get a Certificate, even if they score a 1. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 21:49, 16 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
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