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MiszaBot I (talk | contribs) m Archiving 2 thread(s) from Talk:IB Diploma Programme. |
MiszaBot I (talk | contribs) m Archiving 2 thread(s) from Talk:IB Diploma Programme. |
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::::::I know where to find the box. Will do so later (am just logging off for a little while). Also, looks like the edit warring has started again -- very tedious! [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 21:02, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
== Edit war ==
I've [[WP:BOLD|bold]]ly deleted the history section for the time being. It can be added back later. In my view comments such as [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ATruthkeeper88&diff=309870616&oldid=309863954 this] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AObserverNY&diff=310243555&oldid=310239910 this] are too inflammatory and beyond any sort of spirit of civility. Rather than having an edit war, the section is gone. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 21:46, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Deleting an entire section is entirely uncivil and I have reverted your edit. YOU PEOPLE didn't WANT discussion. The second I say I'm DONE you turn this talk page into a forum. Stop being such hypocrites. I added perfectly fine facts with verifiable citations. You have a problem with Hahn? You have a problem with Desmond Cole? What is your problem? [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 21:55, 26 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
::See your talk page to see what my problem is with you ObserverNY. I should add that I don't approve in the wholesale deletion of the talk page by Truthkeeper. I hope TK will revert that as it was without discussion. Sometimes things are done in frustration and anger. TK seems to be very reasonable. We all have our moments (don't we?) --[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 22:00, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Why I deleted an entire section that I've spent a long time working on: [[User:ObserverNY]] added text into the middle of a sentence thereby splitting the source. In addition, [[User:ObserverNY]]'s edit was factually wrong as the sentence in question is about 1962 whereas their information was about 1968. Last night I took the time to move the text to the appropriate place [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IB_Diploma_Programme&diff=310049637&oldid=310049380 here]. That edit was reverted by [[User:ObserverNY]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IB_Diploma_Programme&diff=next&oldid=310051385 here]. Today, La mome, who has also worked on the history section moved the text so it would be in the appropriate section. That edit was reverted [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IB_Diploma_Programme&diff=310235749&oldid=310235154 here]. In my view, if a section is controversial and if an editor wants to engage in an edit war, then the section can be removed for a short period and replaced later (which is what I'd intended). Looking at the edit histories, [[User:ObserverNY]] has broken the 3R rule today. That's edit warring. I've tried very hard to be even keelend and civil, but when the inappropriate comments were brought to my user page, I realised that perhaps being even keeled doesn't always do the job. At any rate, the section is restored. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 22:07, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
::Oh crap TK. I made a facetious remark on your talk page today and forgot to sign it. I hope you weren't reacting to that thinking it was ONY? If you were mea culpa. I'll be a lot more sensitive in future. /spanks self --[[User:Candorwien|Candy]] ([[User talk:Candorwien|talk]]) 22:14, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
:::''"In addition, User:ObserverNY's edit was factually wrong as the sentence in question is about 1962 whereas their information was about 1968."'' You are incorrect, TK. The UWC cite mentions the 3 schools, therefore your addition of {{cite}} is uncalled for. I changed 1962 to "the early 1960's". I believe 1962-1964 qualifies as the early 1960's, no? The following sentence to which I added Desmond Cole of UNIS with the Jay Mathews cite, further establishes the time frame for the participation of those 3 schools in the IBDP's development, re, those who formed ISES in .... 1964... early 1960's. I thought you would endeavor to actually read the very good secondary sources I provided, but I guessed wrong. Oh well. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 00:07, 27 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::No, I mean [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ATruthkeeper88&diff=309870616&oldid=309863954 this] which is actually addressed to you but on my talkpage, and not at all appropriate. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 22:18, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
::::The "edit war" was started over the inclusion of these sentences:
::::"The Diploma Programme's development began in the early 1960's at the International School of Geneva (Ecolint), United World College (UWC) of the Atlantic and the United Nations International School (UNIS) of New York. Alec Peterson, author of Schools Across Frontiers, credits the influence of the curriculum model developed at the UWC of the Atlantic as serving as the eventual framework of the IBDP as well as the work of his mentor educationist Kurt Hahn, who was instrumental in shaping the college’s philosophy."
::::Truthkeeper and I explained both on the talkpage and in the edit summaries why these two sentences needed to be reworded and moved to a chronologically appropriate part of the article.
::::More precisely, according to sources already included in the article, the development of the IBDP began at Ecolint in 1962 and continued later (1965)with UWC and UNIS, when Mayer started his study. The source listed from the UWC does not state that it was developed ''at'' those schools, but rather ''by'' educators ''from'' those schools. Nuance.
::::The Pound source is quoting from the first edition of the Peterson book. In my opinion, Pound and as a result we, would be giving undue weight to the UWC by including it there. The UWC is linked to twice already--in the external links section and in the IB series section. Why? Undue weight is also given to Hahn here, as he was instrumental in shaping the ''UWC's'' philosophy. The person from UWC- Atlantic College who should be mentioned and who is not is the 3rd Desmond from the "humorous interlude" in the archives-- Desmond Hoare-- the headmaster at UWC.
::::I propose that we collaboratively decide where and how to incorporate those two sentences. My proposal is the version reverted by ONY.
::::[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 23:39, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
:::::As an unabashed fan of [[Paul_Erdos#Collaborators|collaboration]], I thank La mome for clearly explaining the issues with some of the recent edits and once again hope that we can work together to reach consensus here, while limiting the drama as much as is possible. La mome's suggestion to use, for example, [[WP:BRD]], includes the third letter (D) of the acronym, which refers to "discuss," thus there is no reason to suggest that discussion was not welcome. It is instead clear that [[WP:BRD]] specifically ''requires'' discussion. So, please, let's make use of that part of the process, too--without invective, accusation, hyperbole, or other various types of nastiness. Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 00:03, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
::::::::Wrote this before CB's comment above, so it might be more abrasive than it needs, but it does explain the history:
:::::::I don't object to the content; I do object to placement of the content. I moved the content and my edit was reverted. This is now the third/fourth/fifth time that the history section has been muddled up. It's very simple: it's history, and as such should follow some sort of chronological order and that order must rely on verifiable sources. If Pound is quoting Peterson, then we have the Peterson source in place, the chronology was correct: i.e. Leach had a conference in 1962; ISES was formed in the mid sixties; IB became an entity at the end of 67 beginning of 68. Peterson explains the UNIS connection on page 22 [http://books.google.com/books?id=nTUjMNjNo3EC&dq=peterson+international+baccalaureate&printsec=frontcover&source=in&hl=en&ei=AJVnSomID8KRtge16Z33Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=11#v=onepage&q=&f=false here]: in 1964, the Ford Foundation asked [[Harlan Hanson]] and Desmond Cole join the group in Geneva at [[Ecolint]] as the Ford Foundation was investing millions in UNIS and they considered the "new international university entrance examination" to be appropriate at UNIS. So, the UNIS group didn't begin IB -- Ford asked that two people be sent to Geneva (Hanson & Cole) and contribute to work being done there. I have absolutely no objection to this being added to the article in the chronologically appropriate place. Will read Hill, Peterson, Fox & Pound re; the Atlantic college involvement and respond later, but at this point I think it's better to synthesize the material appropriately before adding potentially to the incorrect spot. Apologies, btw for removing the offending section, but it seemed the only option at that moment. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 00:09, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
::LaMome and Truthkeeper are incorrect in their allegations about the lack of influence of Kurt Hahn and Alec Peterson (the father of the IBDP) and their insistence on 1968 and removing my edits to put somewhere else. The UWC was founded in 1962 by Hahn. Between 1962 and 1964, he joined forced with the others (including Cole of UNIS) to form ISES. They ALL worked on the IBDP's development. You cannot place undue weight on Harlan Hanson and ignore Hahn and Peterson simply because you and LaMome want to maximize American influence and minimize UNESCO influence. History is history and it would be CIVIL of TK and LaMome to take the time to actually read the references I took time to research instead of arbitrarily deleting them. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 00:18, 27 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::I have read them. The dates don't match up. If you want to shove something in where it doesn't belong, then the section should be removed. I've said more than once, I don't object to the content, but it should be placed appropriately. Please don't accuse me of not reading sources again when I've read Hill, Pound, Fox, Peterson and others, sources you explicitly stated you had no time to read. Were you to take the time to read the sources I've mentioned you'd see the error. Edit warring with you is exhausting and draining and in my view I'd rather delete the entire section again rather than arguing with you. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 00:23, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
TK- I made a comment to you on my talk page. Please read. Yeah, editing with you is exhausting - like what I had to go through to prove to you that a [[foundation]] isn't a [[foundation]] without a Board of Directors (President), and only after a lengthy battle did you finally admit to someone else on your talk page, not here, that my point was justified. [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 00:49, 27 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:I don't have a problem with the inclusion of Peterson and I never did. On Page 17 of ''Schools across frontiers'' he says: "A committee of sponsors was formed drawn from members of various international organisations based in Geneva, but the driving force in the transition from an idea, ...to a reality was not international organisations nor, as in the case of the Atlantic College, a group of influential opinion leaders with royal patronage, but the teachers at Ecolint, led by Cole- Baker....As a result of the co-operative efforts of this group, 1962, the year of the foundation of Atlantic cllege, also saw the first small conference in Geneva, organised by the teachers in Ecolint's social studies department, under their Chairman Bob Leach, which made specific mention of the words "International Baccalaureate."
:This article is about the IBDP, not the UWC. While there is no question that their histories are inextricably connected (the full title of Peterson's book is ''Schools across frontiers: the story of the IB and the UWC''), it does not say on pages 16-17 in the second edition, at least as far as I can see that Hahn was a founding figure in ISES. Yes, Peterson was a big fan of his. But Hahn is not listed in the back as one of the "people who made IB." There is however, a picture of the "three planners of the café de remor"--Peterson, Cole-Baker and Hanson.
:I read the sources you provided and made comments above on how the wording in our article does not "jive" with what was actually said in those sources, as well as others here.
:The whole reason for the [[WP:1RR]] was to avoid this kind of back and forth and especially edit warring.
:[[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 01:26, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
<s>::ObserverNY: I don't remember the foundation discussion. However, if editing with me is so exhausting, then perhaps you won't mind if I revert all the many edits where I've cleaned up your cite mistakes among others. I will now drop out here, as obviously I have nothing to add. Thanks. [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 01:32, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
::Btw -- did my comment on my talkpage include profanity? Have I demanded an apology ad nauseam? [[User:Truthkeeper88|Truthkeeper88]] ([[User talk:Truthkeeper88|talk]]) 01:33, 27 August 2009 (UTC)</s>
:::"You cannot place undue weight on Harlan Hanson and ignore Hahn and Peterson simply because you and LaMome want to maximize American influence and minimize UNESCO influence."[[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 00:18, 27 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
:::Why would we do that?
:::[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AObserverNY&diff=310267776&oldid=310259019 This comment] was uncalled for. I believe you owe me an apology and I would appreciate it if you would strike it or delete it from your talk page.
:::Thanks - [[User:La mome|La mome]] ([[User talk:La mome|talk]]) 01:57, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
I've restored an earlier version of the article by Candorwien, since the Peterson source does not say that the [[Atlantic_College|United World College of the Atlantic (aka "Atlantic College")]] was involved in the 1962 developments. Also, the UWC web reference does not specify early dates. While it's very clear that Atlantic College was involved in later developments, this spot in the history isn't the right place for it. From Peterson, it seems that Atlantic College was the ___location for a curriculum conference in 1965 (two conferences, actually, one in the spring and one in the fall). While I may have missed some earlier reference to Atlantic College's direct involvement with the development of IB, this is the earliest mention I've found so far. Again, Atlantic College should be mentioned in the "Early development" section, but it should be mentioned a bit later than it was in the version that I just changed. Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 11:22, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
:In re-reading Peterson, I'm not sure that Atlantic College hosted the 1965 spring (March) conference, but they definitely participated along with Ecolint. Atlantinc College did host the curriculum conference in October 1965, though. Regards, • [[User:CinchBug|<b style="color:#0C0">Cinch</b>]][[User talk:CinchBug|<b style="color:#93C">Bug</b>]] • 11:36, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
== Kurt Hahn ==
http://www.outward-bound.org/docs/staff/kurthahn-essay.htm
In 1962, at the age of 76, Hahn established Atlantic College in Wales, with the help of Sir Lawrence Darvall and many others. Atlantic College was the first of seven United World Colleges and was designed to bridge the international gap between secondary education and university level study by offering a universally recognized degree, the International Baccalaureate.
http://www.ibo.org/council/peterson/documents/Peterson_biography_eFINAL.pdf
He (Peterson) met Kurt Hahn at a conference on international education in Belgium in 1957. Through this
acquaintance with Hahn’s educational philosophy together with his military connections Peterson
visited the new Atlantic College at St Donats (Wales) for the first time in 1961 (before any students
had been enrolled). Kurt Hahn had helped to establish the school with Rear-Admiral '''Desmond
Hoare''' as founding headmaster and '''Robert Blackburn''' as deputy headmaster. During the summer of
1962 Peterson worked with Blackburn to provide a broad academic curriculum to the students who
were to enter this first of the United World Colleges in September of the same year.
Peterson was a staunch campaigner against what he regarded as the over-specialization of British
education at pre-university level. In 1960 he published a report Arts and Science Sides in the Sixth Form
based on research funded by the Gulbenkian Foundation. '''It is noteworthy how closely the content of
the report resembles not only the philosophy but also the structure of the IB Diploma Programme,
which had only begun to be elaborated a few years later.''' [[User:ObserverNY|ObserverNY]] ([[User talk:ObserverNY|talk]]) 20:59, 27 August 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
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