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==Proposals, October 2005==
===Sub-stubs of {{tl|Org-stub}}===
I Propose the following subcategories under {{tl|org-stub}} which is pretty over-full right now:
*{{tl|Charity-stub}}
*<s>{{tl|Political-party-stub}}</s>
*{{tl|Labor-union-stub}}
*{{tl|Frat-stub}} - for Fraternities and Sororities
There are probably more, but that would be a start. [[User:GTBacchus|GTBacchus]] 04:58, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
*Well, for a start you don't need the second and fourth ones: {{tl|Party-stub}} or {{tl|Honor-stub}} already exist (the latter for honor societies - we can use that spelling because these things don't exist outside the US). Charity-stub would probably be very useful. As for "Labor-union-stub", it suffers from the problem that honor-stub can avoid by being a US-only phenomenon; most of the English-speaking world calls them Labour unions. Union-stub might be a reasonable name, though. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 07:12, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
**Just sampling the fraternities and sororities from [[:Category:Organization stubs]] beginning with Alpha, I don't get the impression that they're mostly honor societies. I wouldn't be inclined to put a social-oriented or even a service-oriented fraternity in a category called "honor societies". {{tl|Union-stub}} sounds perfectly reasonable - I hope it's clear that it refers to labor/labour unions, and not something else. I'm new on the project, so I don't know how it works, but I'd be willing to go through the pages of organization stubs and pull out specific types, I just need the go-ahead to create new templates, I guess. Or does someone with some kind of admin status have to do that? [[User:GTBacchus|GTBacchus]] 08:21, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
***No, anyone can do it (but make sure to follow the guidelines!) - the main thing is to wait for a week or so, though, for any debate, suggestions, etc. Sometimes the discussion lasts a bit longer than a week if some issues are unresolved (which is why some of the things on this page date back as far as August). As to honor-stub, I'm not from the US so I have no idea what the difference between a fraternity or sorority and an honor society is - I'd assumed they were identical. Perhaps the solution would be to change the scope of honor-stub. Hopefully someone who knows more about the subject can make some suggestions? Anyone...? [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 09:34, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
****Looks like the template was created last night. Added a category for it, listed on the ST page, and filled in from [[:Category:Trade unions]]. If anyone fancies the job of going through {{tl|org-stub}} hunting for uncategorised unions, youre more than welcome to :) [[User:GeeJo|<font style="padding : 0px 1px 1px 1px; border : 1px solid #809EF5; background: #FFFFFF ; color: #809EF5">GeeJo</font>]] <sub>[[User talk:GeeJo|(t)]] [[Special:Contributions/GeeJo|(c)]]</sub> <small>• </small> <small>18:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)</small>
*****Sounds like a good thing to add to [[WP:WSS/T]]. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 23:28, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
**Honor societies are special types of fraternities/sororities for those who are high academic acheivers. There are lots of other types of frats for professional groups, cultural groups and mostly just for socializing. It would probably be easier to just change what honor-stub is for since there arent many stubs in it. [[User:BL Lacertae|BL Lacertae]] 09:49, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
***You mean we would keep the name {{tl|honor-stub}}, but redefine it to be a category for stubs relating to any fraternity or sorority, kind of like the way {{tl|UN-stub}} now applies to any International Organization? I guess if I were to suggest an advantage to the name frat-stub, it would be that it makes such things as {{tl|honor-frat-stub}} and {{tl|service-frat-stub}} feasible; those would be more awkward if the main name were honor-stub. I don't know whether it's worthwhile to plan for so many fraternity and sorority stubs anyway. :-\ [[User:GTBacchus|GTBacchus]] 05:27, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
*To that I would like to add {{tl|footy-org-stub}}, for football-related organizations, player unions, associations, federations and confederations. I've now gone through the letters A to G of {{tl|footy-stub}}, and I've already come across 81 football-related organizations. [[User:Aecis|Aecis]] 22:48, 13 October 2005 (UTC) (Update: I've finished the count, and there are 120 footy-org-stubs in footy-stub.)
**a more generic {{tl|sport-org-stub}} would probably also be useful. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 23:54, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
*I've just noticed that {{tl|UK-org-stub}} exists, and is attached to 308 articles, but <s>isn't</s> wasn't listed anywhere on [[WP:WSS/ST]]. Also, there aren't nearly as many frat-stubs as I thought there were, it turns out. I'm gradually working through org-stub and trying to identify sub-categories with the most entries in them. [[User:GTBacchus|GTBacchus]] 00:36, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
==={{tl|mil-unit-stub}} & {{cl|Military unit stubs}}===
For around a dozen articles on military unit types, and the 80 or so specific unsorted battalions, regiments, brigades, etc. (More if the US, UK, etc, ones already sorted are double-stubbed.) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 03:23, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
: Add a few from Poland-related stubs. I wonder if this category would be only for for unit types, like [[Chorągiew]], or for entire units like [[1st Polish Army]]? --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 15:28, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
::Both. Chorągiew actually appears in my 'count' of unit types, 1st Polish would be in addition to that for actual units. (I didn't count in any of the existing sub-categories.) I started off counting them separately, but it's clear the first doesn't hit the threshold, and them seem more naturally included here than with "ranks", say. Splitting up the actual-units by size doesn't seem likely to work, either, unless we're very careful about size cutoff, which would then probably not be very clear to other stub-sorters. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 15:48, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
:::As I am going over the Poland-stub category, here are some relevant ones you may or not may want to add to your list: [[Armia Ludowa]], [[Batalion Parasol]], [[Batalion Zośka]], [[Confederatio]], [[Confederation of Dzików]], [[Kopia]], [[Lisowczycy]], [[Leśni]], [[Operational Group]], [[Poczet]], [[Polish 28th Infantry Division]], [[Pospolite ruszenie]], [[Prusy Army]], [[Rokosz]], [[Rota (formation)]], [[Tajna Armia Polska]], [[Wołyńska Cavalry Brigade]]. I hope that when you get your new templates you will go over those articles and update them :) --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 01:37, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
::::Four of them already on the list, rest noted, thanks. Are there enough Polish military stubs in total for a {{tl|Poland-mil-stub}}? Especially as there's a wikiproject... [[User:Alai|Alai]] 03:47, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
:::::It is one of the stubs I am considering, but I haven't done the exact count - perhaps you should ask somebody from the [[Wikipedia:Wikiproject Polish Army]] to do a count. --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 00:26, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
::::::As you know, I've already mooted it there... :) Given the WP, the threshold would be lower: surely there must be at least 30 or so? I found 15 in the mil-stub category, there's probably more in weapon-stub, firearm-stub, WWII-stub, etc, as well as outside the hierarchy (as are the majority of the above). I think it'd be a shoo-in if someone from the WP suggested it (hint, hint!), but I can hardly force them if they don't want it... [[User:Alai|Alai]] 03:23, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
:::::::I am pretty sure the poland-mil-stub would be feasible, as you point out there are various equipment-related stubs and such (like [[Ursus wz.29]]). Btw, found one more unit-stub for you: [[Zawisza (Szare Szeregi)]]. --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 16:05, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
===Bishop stubs===
As I noted [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals/Archive11#Splits_of_.28.7B.7BAcademic-bio-stub.7D.7D_and_.28.7B.7BReli-bio-stub.7D.7D|above]], there are 111 biographies of (arch)bishops in {{tl|reli-bio-stub}}. I don't know how many more there are in e.g. {{tl|christianity-stub}} and {{tl|bio-stub}}. I would like to (again?) propose {{tl|bishop-stub}} and {{cl|Bishop stubs}}. [[User:Aecis|Aecis]] 22:24, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
:As I suggested above, I'd be more keen simply to split reli-bio-stub by religion rather than actual rank: christian-bio-stub/moslem-bio-stub etc. The problem of course would be people being added to the categories not because they were religious leaders, but simply because they profess a particular religion. So yes, bishop-stub sounds feasible. How about imam-stub? There must be quite a number of them in there, too... [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 00:41, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
::There are an immense amount of biographies of muslims in {{tl|islam-stub}} and {{tl|reli-bio-stub}}, which both could do with splitting. So {{imam-stub}} could indeed be viable. [[User:Aecis|Aecis]] 11:06, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
::I mentioned it last time, but it got no responses, so I'll suggest it again: perhaps something like christian-relibio-stub/muslim-relibio-stub, to indicate that it's just not anyone who professes the religion? Or if not that, perhaps general christian-clergy-stub? --[[User:Mairi|Mairi]] 18:08, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
:::The reason I didn't respond to your proposal back then was that I didn't know how I felt about it. I couldn't make up my mind either way, and I still can't. There are pro's and con's to it. Currently, {{tl|reli-bio-stub}} has between 1,100 and 1,200 articles. About 95% of these are about a christian or a muslim. This division would mean that we would replace one large category with two large categories. Another problem is that it could become a catchall for seemingly unrelated people (e.g. 9th century tribal chieftains and 20th century theologians). OTOH, {{tl|muslim-relibio-stub}} or {{tl|islam-relibio-stub}} could be very useful for early muslims who played an important role in the development and spread of islam, but who did not fit within "bureaucratic structures" (like the tribal chieftains). When it comes to christians with stub biographies, many seem to fall within these structures. For them we could use {{tl|christan-clergy-stub}}. Other christians can be double-stubbed {{tl|christianity-stub}} and {{tl|reli-bio-stub}}. [[User:Aecis|Aecis]] 22:34, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
I would suggest the following:
{{tl|Christianity-bio-stub}}
:{{tl|Catholicism-bio-stub}}
::{{tl|papal-stub}}
::{{tl|bishop-stub}}
:{{tl|Protestantism-bio-stub}} (sounds a little odd)
{{tl|Islam-bio-stub}} (I don't know how that could be split further: I guess Imams would be '''one''' definate split)
{{tl|Judaism-bio-stub}}
Further religions: [[Buddhism]], [[Sikhism]], [[Taoism]], eg, can be split (if necessary) once we've gotten the ''Big Three'' out of the way--[[User:Carabinieri|Carabinieri]] 02:55, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
In your structure above, {{tl|bishop-stub}} is a subcat of {{tl|Catholicism-bio-stub}} and so excludes Orthodox, and Anglican bishops, as well as other Christian groups that have bishops? I think it should go directly under {{tl|Christianity-bio-stub}}. In fact, once this is created, is {{tl|Catholicism-bio-stub}} really all that useful? [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 03:24, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
:I was going to say the same thing. Either split by "flavour" or "rank", not by both. How about:
:*{{tl|Christianity-bio-stub}}
:**{{tl|Clergy-bio-stub}}
:***<s>{{tl|Bishop-bio-stub}}</s>{{tl|Bishop-stub}}
:***<s>{{tl|Pope-bio-stub}}</s>{{tl|Pope-stub}}
:**<s>{{tl|Christian-theologian-bio-stub}}</s>{{tl|Christian-theologian-stub}}
:*{{tl|Islam-bio-stub}}
:**<s>{{tl|Imam-bio-stub}}</s>{{tl|Imam-stub}}
:**<s>{{tl|Islamic-theologian-bio-stub}}</s>{{tl|Islamic-theologian-stub}}
:*{{tl|Judaism-bio-stub}}
:*{{tl|Buddhism-bio-stub}}
:*{{tl|Hinduism-bio-stub}} etc etc
[[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 11:14, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
::Would the theologian ones needs to be "theologian-bio", or could they just be "theologian"? --[[User:Alynna.Kasmira|Alynna]] 19:27, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
:::When it comes to professions, we usually don't use "-bio" in the template title, like {{tl|journalist-stub}} and {{tl|economist-stub}}. So I would edit some of Grutness' proposals to {{tl|Clergy-stub}}, {{tl|Bishop-stub}}, {{tl|Pope-stub}}, {{tl|Christian-theologian-stub}} and {{tl|Islamic-theologian-stub}}. [[User:Aecis|Aecis]] 20:12, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
::::Agree with Grutness on hierarchy, and Alynna and Aecis on the unnecessary "-bio"s. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 20:19, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
::Wouldn't {{tl|Imam-stub}} work as well instead of {{tl|Imam-bio-stub}}?--[[User:Carabinieri|Carabinieri]] 16:08, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
:Yeah - my fault. I automatically added "bio" to everything without thinking. I also used the proposed new name of pope-stub (papal-stub is up for renaming at sfd). [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 02:03, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
:Should it be {{tl|Christian-clergy-stub}} instead? as [[clergy]] isn't necessarily specific to Christianity... Other than that, Grutness's revised proposal sounds good. --[[User:Mairi|Mairi]] 02:40, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
:{{tl|theologist-stub}} has been created prematurely. ''If'' it's worth keeping, I think it ought to be renamed to theologian-stub. --[[User:Mairi|Mairi]] 02:11, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
::I think it ought to be kept as a split of {{tl|reli-bio-stub}} and {{tl|academic-bio-stub}}. {{tl|Islamic-theologian-stub}} and {{tl|Christian-theologian-stub}} should be split of {{tl|theologian}} and {{tl|Christianity-bio-stub}} and {{tl|Islam-bio-stub}} respectively.--[[User:Carabinieri|Carabinieri]] 14:06, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
I've created {{tl|bishop-stub}} and {{cl|Bishop stubs}}. [[User:Aecis|Aecis]] [[User_talk:Aecis|<sup>praatpaal</sup>]] 00:13, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
:I dont like the name of {{tl|Imam-stub}}, lets call it {{tl|Islam-non-theologian-stub}}, its wider and does not have the "shia" association. That and {{tl|Islam-theologian-stub}}+ {{tl|islam-book-stub}} whoul be great. There are loots of book that need to have a proper stub... --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 08:07, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
::I disagree with {{tl|Islam-non-theologian-stub}}. It's too long, too unintuitive, too "clumsy". I also don't know whether there are enough stubs for {{tl|imam-stub}}. I think it would be better to use {{tl|Islam-clergy-stub}}, which can include for instance ayatollahs. It could be used alongside {{tl|christianity-clergy-stub}}, to provide some consistency. The problem is that Orthodox Islam is a non-clerical religion, according to [[clergy]], so I'm open to suggestions. [[User:Aecis|Aecis]] [[User_talk:Aecis|<sup>praatpaal</sup>]] 11:22, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
::Also, {{tl|Islam-non-theologian-stub}} would be exactly what's in {{tl|Islam-bio-stub}}, since all the theologians would be in {{tl|Islam-theologian-stub}}. --[[User:Mairi|Mairi]] 19:34, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
===Academic-bio-stub subcategories===
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