Talk:Filipino people: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 22:14, 12 February 2006

Revision as of 10:37, 14 February 2006

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::::::Please give me a credible definition of ''ethnic group'' and ''ethnicity'' in a different discipline. Furthermore, since we are talking about an ethnic group, we would do this from an anthropological perspective. We would not write about the functions of human brain from a culinary perspective, would we?

:::::::Hi! Of course that definitions I gave you are credible- they are from Wikipedia.

::::::Also, I still think you are applying the statistics wrong. And you are wrong about what I am explaining with the statistics. What I said has nothing to do with probability. What you are attempting to do is make an inference of the genetic make-up of a particular population. You are doing this by relying on an unreliable sample of < 30 because there are over 80 million Filipinos in the world. Whatever the frequency is applies only to that small sample; it is not enough to give a generalization to 80 million Filipinos. Sana'y makakaintindi kayo nito.

:::::::Yes. I thought you had a problem with the '3.6%', like others do. However, this study still qualifies as a small-n sample, and even though it seems that this study is unscientific ('yun nga, 'coz it is <30), it still is. However, there are some experts who find problems with that particular experimental design. Nevertheless, it is still considered OK by modern statistics.

::::::Furthermore, I am a Filipino with European ancestry, yes. However, it is quite clear where I get my European ancestry from - my grandfather who was an American. However, the jury is still out concerning European genes from my Filipino ancestors. My great-great-great-grandparents Simplicio and Luisa Javier were supposedly Spaniards, the latter dying in the 1930's according to the late matriarch of our family. However, I am still searching for baptismal records corroborating this. On the other hand, baptismal records for my other ancestors say ''indio'' as opposed to ''filipino'' (Spaniard born in the Philippines) or ''europeo'' (born in Spain). But no, just because ''I'' have an American grandfather doesn't mean it applies to all Filipinos - I don't even look Filipino. --[[User:Christopher Sundita|Chris S.]] 07:21, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

:::::::First of all, yes, its true that many Filipinos do fake their genetic identity in order to feel more 'superior' than others, and also the implementation of the 'Catalogo del Apellidos' has supported that some Filipinos are really indeed natives (or indios). However, there are also some with true Spanish descent. It does not mean that when you look Asian, you don't have Spanish blood. Some of my father's relatives, also surnamed Javier, who is quite Caucasian-looking (also has Spanish admixtures with a traceable ancestry lineage), have children, and these children, even though their parents have Spanish blood, really look like Filipinos - brown, short, black hair, and the like. What I mention below regarding the 'European look of some FIlipinos' is true. Many here, particularly in cities and towns, look quite Caucasian. Of course, this is not an opinion. I use this as a proof in order to impress the fact that Filipinos do indeed have significant amounts of European lineage (because if there's no genes, then there's no reflection of it, rephrasing, if there's phenotype, then there's genotype}. Regarding the ethnic groups 'historical and cultural links' tagline, it ought to be removed, since as you said, the term ethnic group itself refers to 'ancestry, cultural, linguistic...' links. Hence, it need not be doubled. Right? :) --[[User:Matthewprc|Mthewprc]]

:::According to [[User:Matthewprc]], "'''''further studies accept the presence of Polynesian genes in the peoples living in the eastern seaboards of the Philippine islands, thus proving that the Philippines is the main departure area of the Polynesians toward Oceania.'''''" If this proves that the Philippines is the "'''''main departure area of the Polynesians'''''", then that means it is the Polynesians that have Filipino genes, not the other way around.

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:Some Japanese did intermarry in both Peru and Brazil, but that's besides the point. European features? What does that mean? I've known Indonesians with European features, that hardly makes them all part European. I'm not saying Filipinos are liars, just generally unable to reconcile that just having a Spanish name doesn't make you part Spaniard. It's not their fault and now if we keep up this charade you can expect generations of people thinking being part-Spanish is somehow a badge of something or other. No, 3.6% have some genetic marker from Europeans AND that's one study with a possibilty of a error differential that may actually reflect the official 2% figure. Really Grollier and Britannica claim that most Filipinos are part Spanish? I have Encyclopedia Americana and it seems to simply discuss a Malay background with substantial Chinese interaction for the vast majority of Filipinos. Hispanic is a not a racial term! Geezus. It's a geographic term first invented by the US CENSUS bureau and can apply to black Hispanics from the Dominican Republic, white Hispanics from Argentina, and Native Americans from Mexico. I'm being quite objective here and if the article is not going to discuss ethnic Filipinos, but citizens of the country, then that's an entirely different matter. Regardless, look at the other peoples' pages and you'll note that the common practice is to denote major related groups and not tiny groups. [[User:Tombseye|Tombseye]] 20:17, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

:::'''You say: I've known Indonesians with European features'''. Precisely. The journal says that Indonesians have some European chromosomes. '''You say: No, 3.6% have some genetic marker from Europeans AND that's one study with a possibilty of a error differential that may actually reflect the official 2% figure'''. Look at the haplogroup graphs, and that's where the frequency can be found. AND, there was no official census that says 2% of all FIlipinos are Mestizos. In fact, the Philippine government does not do survey based on ancestry. This 2% was just an estimate. To further, I did not say that Hispanic is a racial term. Furthermore, the use of Filipino here in Wikipedia refers to all 'inhabitants and bonafide citizens of the country', and not just Ethnic Filipinos (see [[WP:TAMBAY]]). -- [[User:Matthewprc|Mthwprc]]

I just want to repeat what Chris said about ''' Ethnicity '''. It is ''' all the ancestral, linguistic, cultural, ideas about common history, religious, etc. bases for one's identitiy. ''' So it is clear why Hispanics are included. - Isao

::I did not counter that, I just said that ancestry has been the main priority for establishing ethnic groups. And so, it would be better to remove the tag line: 'historical and cultural links, etc.' in the related ethnic groups line. -- [[User:Matthewprc|Mthwprc]]

It seems that [[User:Mattewprc|Mattewprc]] seems to focusing on the "foreign" haplogroup which wasn't the intention of the research. This is one of those "I found something to use" in order to support their evidence.

MatthewMtthew, I think you're better of contacting the researchers themselves or at least the genetics dept. at Standford Univ. who was responsible for putting out this research. There were 3 haplogroups identified (not counting the foreign haplogroup which you are arguing over) and their origins as this entire report seems to focus on are on the indigenous people who had been in existence in the area prior to the other migrations. The 3% which you imply applies to <i>all</i> Filipinos having Spanish ancestry is incorrect because had you read the report in its entirety, you would have seen how they mentioned that other options should not be ruled out based on their findings. The purpose of this was to dispell the thought of the "express train" theory and to prove that people have been living in these areas far before the so called express train route began. Most importantly exchange in cultural technology took place but as proven in the y-chromosomes, not the people. [[User:66.215.18.34|66.215.18.34]]

:I read the entire article, and the 'othe options' you might be talking about is homoplasy. They have indicated that this was remedied by using a certain criterion. In fact their results had large letters indicating "European Introgression" -- [[User:Matthewprc|Mtwprc]]