Talk:Common English usage misconceptions/Archive 2: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 01:14, 8 December 2012

Revision as of 01:17, 31 December 2012

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::::::I think that presentation is a good one. I'm in favor of whatever makes the article more readable and consolidating citations helps improve readability; when the ratio of text to footnotes reaches a certain threshold all those superscripts starts to obscure the prose. [[User:Mr swordfish|Mr. Swordfish]] ([[User talk:Mr swordfish|talk]]) 20:53, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

== Neutrality ==

There is no objective source of "correctness" in English, there are simply practices and opinions. This page affirms that position that the way some schoolchildren are taught English is actually incorrect. It would be more objective to say that these teachings are criticized or that the rules are disputed. It is also objective to point out cases where a majority accepts a certain practice in a given register, where widely accepted style guides all agree, and where professional practice in some or most cases runs against a minority opinion. The title is also non-neutral for similar reasons; I think it would be more object as "Disputes in English usage" just like we have [[Disputes in English grammar]] which should probably be merged. -- [[User:Beland|Beland]] ([[User talk:Beland|talk]]) 16:43, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

:Your first sentence is correct and is the foundation of this article. If there is no objective source of "correctness" in English (as you note), how can there be a "rule" that one shouldn't start a sentence with a preposition or one shouldn't split an infinitive, or people shouldn't start a sentence with specific conjunctions? There can't be. Yet, reliable sources have pointed out that there are misconceptions (or myths) that these rules can and do exist. One criterion for inclusion here is that the entry is reliably sourced as a misconception. It's not POV when reliable sources couch it in these terms. --[[User:Airborne84|Airborne84]] ([[User talk:Airborne84|talk]]) 00:24, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

::I'd also offer that the concern about the title/content being POV is a larger issue than this article. See below:

::*[[List of common misconceptions]]

::*[[Misconceptions about tornadoes]]

::*[[List of misconceptions about illegal drugs]]

::*[[Misconceptions about HIV and AIDS]]

::*[[Common misunderstandings of genetics]]

::*[[Misconceptions about evolution]]

::Short of putting POV tags on all of these and related articles, you may want to raise your concern in a different Wikipedia forum. --[[User:Airborne84|Airborne84]] ([[User talk:Airborne84|talk]]) 17:06, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

:::I propose to remove the neutrality tag on the article. Given that this article is similar to those listed above that do not have tags, I'd suggest that the problem, if there is one, needs to be resolved in a different forum than this talk page. --[[User:Airborne84|Airborne84]] ([[User talk:Airborne84|talk]]) 19:11, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

::::The other articles you point out concern scientific, historical, etc. claims about what ''is'' or ''was'', which can be objectively assessed; this article concerns opinions about how people ''should'' speak. Apparently there is a dispute between a number of elementary school teachers and professional style guides, with the population of English speakers somewhat divided over which is correct. Is there any particular forum you would suggest in which to solicit more opinions, if you still feel that is necessary? -- [[User:Beland|Beland]] ([[User talk:Beland|talk]]) 02:59, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

:::::I understand you think the article is about opinions regarding how people should speak or write. But it is actually a bit different. It starts out by pointing out that there is no "right" or "wrong" in English. However, misconceptions exists that there ''are'' firm rules about "right" and "wrong" in English. The inclusion criterions are listed at the top of the article.

:::::I don't think that the title is POV because each of the included entries have to be sourced as a misconception. The sources state these as misconceptions, not the article, and the title simply reflects that this is a collection of sourced misconceptions. I understand that you think they are only disputes, but our opinions here as editors are not relevant. Only the opinions of reliable sources are.

:::::Since you assert that the article violates [[WP:NPOV]], please refer the rest of us to the specific passages in that policy that this article violates so that your concerns can be addressed. --[[User:Airborne84|Airborne84]] ([[User talk:Airborne84|talk]]) 03:18, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

::::::I agree with you Beland. An article with "misconceptions" in the title purports to know what is right and wrong. This is rarely possible in something as subjective as the English language. I have voiced my concerns about how the "irregardless section" is grossly biased but this is a symptom of a larger problem which is that this article probably shouldn't exist in the first place. [[User:Connor Behan|Connor Behan]] ([[User talk:Connor Behan|talk]]) 02:29, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

::::::: I admit that I have a bias towards linguistics as a science, but I get the impression that that's an acceptable bias to have in this sort of situation. I certainly think that this article walks a fine line, but I don't think that it's unreasonable to have a neutral article of this sort if it is totally descriptivist. People ''do'' have common misconceptions about English language and usage. People get the impression that the use of "they" as a gender-neutral, singular noun is a recent addition to the language, even though it has been in use since the time of William Shakespeare. That is a set of facts, not a set of opinions about what is "right" in English. As a general rule, I hardly think it's NPOV to explain the scientific consensus on the nature of language, even though I can imagine people will have strong opinions on the matter. [[User:0x0077BE|0x0077BE]] ([[User talk:0x0077BE|talk]]) 17:52, 31 October 2012 (UTC)