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MiszaBot I (talk | contribs) m Robot: Archiving 2 threads from Talk:Python (programming language). |
MiszaBot I (talk | contribs) m Robot: Archiving 2 threads from Talk:Python (programming language). |
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On a side note, are there any rules for marking major influences (like marking them as bold) ? [[User:Lrekucki|Lrekucki]] ([[User talk:Lrekucki|talk]]) 15:30, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
:Nope. --[[User:Cybercobra|<b><font color="3773A5">Cyber</font></b><font color="FFB521">cobra</font>]] [[User talk:Cybercobra|(talk)]] 22:23, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
== Everything is remarkable ==
A fan of language X claims it has "remarkable power with very clear syntax", is it worthy of quoting this statement in the introduction of a Wikipedia article? I think it is as worthy of mention as quoting somebody who is not a fan of Python who claims it is "as powerful as most modern languages but not as readable".
Is there any empirical research measuring clearness of syntax (I am not aware of any and I have looked)? What method did the person being quoted use to measure clarity?
What remarkable power does Python have? Can it compute functions that cannot be computed by a [[Turing machine]]? If not then it is just as powerful as most other programming language.
This "remarkable power..." quote is pure POV puff and should be removed. [[User:Derek farn|Derek farn]] ([[User talk:Derek farn|talk]]) 14:46, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
:Python is generally known for having a comparatively "clean" syntax. The description is from the official FAQ, not some random author, and is appropriately qualified ("claims to", as opposed to a factual "is" statement). "Power" as in being [[high-level programming language|high-level]] (compared to e.g. [[C (programming language)|C]]; it's a [[scripting language]]); do you have a suggestion for a better description for this aspect? --[[User:Cybercobra|<b><font color="3773A5">Cyber</font></b><font color="FFB521">cobra</font>]] [[User talk:Cybercobra|(talk)]] 18:46, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
::Who is the "generally known"? Has there been a poll of users of different languages? You are now saying Python has "clean syntax" the quote calls it "clear syntax", can you tell me how to measure the cleanness and clearness of a language syntax?
::The Python FAQ should probably be regarded as self serving statement made by people who are fans of the language, i.e., it is not an unbiased source of information.
::If high-level language was intended why was the word "power" used? C users seem to regard their language as being high-level. Does "power" imply scripting (I don't user Python for scripting and I have known developers use C for scripting {no idea why})?
::Your points about Python being a high-level language and scripting are good ones, why not put them in the introduction. The quote reads like advertising copy and is out of place in a Wikipedia article that aims to be objective. [[User:Derek farn|Derek farn]] ([[User talk:Derek farn|talk]]) 22:51, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
:::I’d consider that quote a [[WP:primary source|primary source]] and I always thought is was given too much emphasis, being in the second sentence of the article. If you want people to take it seriously, perhaps find a quote saying the developers ''design'' Python with these goals in mind. I’m guessing “power” means something like “programming efficiency”, like putting together a complex system in ten minutes and fifty lines of code without even thinking about it. [[User:Vadmium|Vadmium]] ([[User talk:Vadmium|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Vadmium|contribs]]) 01:48, 30 May 2012 (UTC).
::::The developers clearly have this a design goal - see the [http://docs.python.org/faq/general.html#what-is-python FAQ]. I agree, just because it is a goal doesn't mean it is achieved. But is very clearly a high-level design goal - see [http://www.stanford.edu%2Fclass%2Fcs242%2Fslides%2F2006%2Fpython-vanRossum.ppt&ei=UO7FT_2DFaWUiQfcoJn1Ag&usg=AFQjCNGJB5HcpA_5_LgnI2VBNLiiiu-w-w] (slide 9 'power' and slide 7 'readability')
::::I have to remove 'Like promoters of other languages Python users', as I don't know of any other language that claims this - again I'm not saying Python achieves that, it's just a claim Python (that is, the developers of Python) make(s).
::::[[User:Peterl|peterl]] ([[User talk:Peterl|talk]]) 10:19, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
What does "remarkable power" mean and how does it differ from "Powerful" or even "unremarkable power"? What languages are not remarkably powerful and how is this quantity measured? It sounds like advertising puff to me. [[User:Derek farn|Derek farn]] ([[User talk:Derek farn|talk]]) 10:56, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
:I've restored the 'clear syntax' phrase, as 1. It is claimed in the references, and 2. It's different to readability. Readability covers everything from useful keywords, ease of documenting, and syntax, amongst other things.
:Re 'remarkable power' - that's it's design philosophy. My guess is it means a useful, powerful language that is surprising or remarkable given the simplicity of the syntax. I wasn't the originator of Python, but that's my guess. Comparing it to VB (easy, clear syntax, no power, difficult to do advanced things) or Perl (not easy, cryptic, very powerful) makes the joining of readable, clear syntax and useful power 'remarkable'.
:That's just my view, but the refs make it plain that was their design philosophy.
:I can't find a ref for it by 'man python' on Unix gives us that first sentence.
:[[User:Peterl|peterl]] ([[User talk:Peterl|talk]]) 23:28, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
:::Man page (unformatted): [http://hg.python.org/cpython/file/tip/Misc/python.man Misc/python.man] from Python’s source code repository, and a [http://hg.python.org/cpython/file/c9b3f77e18ba/Misc/python.man 1994 version]. The ''Unix Power Tools'' reference added the other day is just quoting from the Python web site: [http://web.archive.org/web/20021205102726/http://www.python.org/doc/Summary.html "What is Python?", 2002], and the Fipy manual also uses very similar wording to the man page. [[User:Vadmium|Vadmium]] ([[User talk:Vadmium|talk]], [[Special:Contributions/Vadmium|contribs]]) 03:01, 1 June 2012 (UTC).
::So far we have had three different guesses at what "remarkable power" refers to in this discussion: 1) "high-level" 2) "programming efficiency" 3) "useful, powerful" (Please correct me if I have misinterpreted anyone's comment)
::Therefore I think that using this terminology is a bad idea as it is obviously ambiguous and I'd like to have this statement removed or replaced. --[[User:Marko Knoebl|Marko Knoebl]] ([[User talk:Marko Knoebl|talk]]) 08:23, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
:::I'd rather change it to something along the lines of (Python describes itself as) or (The Python designers call it) "an interpreted, interactive, object-oriented programming language that combines remarkable power with very clear syntax." [http://hg.python.org/cpython/file/c9b3f77e18ba/Misc/python.man]
:::[[User:Peterl|peterl]] ([[User talk:Peterl|talk]]) 21:45, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
::::I don't see much value in this because only the Python designers really know what "remarkable power" is supposed to refer to. You already said that your interpretation was just a guess.--[[User:Marko Knoebl|Marko Knoebl]] ([[User talk:Marko Knoebl|talk]]) 14:26, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
:::I see no such ambiguity; all 3 phrasings refer to the same property, AIUI. I do admit that it's hard to find a definitive name for the property, though "high-level" seems fairly well accepted. I concur with Peter that we just need to properly attribute the source. Would striking or replacing the "remarkable" qualifier satisfy your concerns? --[[User:Cybercobra|<b><font color="3773A5">Cyber</font></b><font color="FFB521">cobra</font>]] [[User talk:Cybercobra|(talk)]] 22:56, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
::::Although I do like the whole quote as that what Python (i.e its designers) say about it.
::::[[User:Peterl|peterl]] ([[User talk:Peterl|talk]]) 05:11, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
::::To me, all these 3 phrases have a different meaning: For example, I consider Java a high-level language whith a low programming efficiency. Furthermore in the past this article attributed Python's power to its large standard library - this article's version from 23 April says: 'Python claims to combine "remarkable power with very clear syntax" by using a large and comprehensive standard library and a design philosophy which emphasizes code readability.'
::::You are saying that "high-level" is a fairly well accepted term for the attribute you want to describe. Ok, so let's use that term! I have absoulutely no problem with calling Python a high-level language: This term is relatively well-defined. --[[User:Marko Knoebl|Marko Knoebl]] ([[User talk:Marko Knoebl|talk]]) 14:26, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
:::::Would it be okay if I changed the introduction to say that Python is a high-level language and that its syntax is clear and expressive? I think this reflects the properties which some call "powerful" and is less ambiguous. --[[User:Marko Knoebl|Marko Knoebl]] ([[User talk:Marko Knoebl|talk]]) 15:33, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
If we are going to include a quote extolling the virtues of Python, by its creators, as unbiased editors we should also include a quote from one of Python's detractors (I don't have one to hand but I'm sure we can find one). [[User:Derek farn|Derek farn]] ([[User talk:Derek farn|talk]]) 14:13, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
:That isn't ''all'' we can do. We could, for example, just state that the quote is from its creators. --[[User:Paddy3118|Paddy]] ([[User talk:Paddy3118|talk]]) 04:05, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
== Incorrect Claim ==
The claim 'OCaml has an optional syntax, called twt (The Whitespace Thing), inspired by Python and Haskell.' is not strictly true: OCaml+TWT is a separate non-standard tool that compiles a variant of OCaml to standard OCaml -- it is in no way part of OCaml; neither is it supported by any of the OCaml tools. (F# -- an OCaml-like language -- however, has 'light' syntax that uses whitespace / indentation, much like Python and Haskell.) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/208.54.5.146|208.54.5.146]] ([[User talk:208.54.5.146|talk]]) 19:19, 23 July 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
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