Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 8: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 23:59, 22 July 2015

Revision as of 19:39, 16 August 2015

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:In this case, the publisher and place of publication should be for the reprint, not the original. I hope that helps. <span style="background:#006B54; padding:2px;">'''[[User:Imzadi1979|<font color="white">Imzadi&nbsp;1979</font>]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Imzadi1979|<font color="white"><big>→</big></font>]]'''</span> 05:26, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

::Awesome, well I made the section [[Talk:Impalement#"reprint" editions]] in regards to the citation.[[Special:Contributions/96.52.0.249|96.52.0.249]] ([[User talk:96.52.0.249|talk]]) 08:20, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

== Feature request: "total_pages" ==

Could this ''optional'' parameter be added, especially to the "cite book" template? Editors sometimes want to indicate the total number of pages in a reference work, since this allows readers to distinguish short pamphlets from weightier tomes. This is particularly the case when the template is used in "Further reading" sections of Wikipedia articles.

The ambiguous "pages" parameter sometimes gets filled in with total page counts instead of page number references, as intended. I initially made this error myself, and I see other editors doing this fairly often, when adding reference works without specific page references. The "total_pages" parameter would divert editors away from making this error, and would also be helpful to interested readers trying to evaluate the size of reference works.

While I don't know how to program templates myself, I hope that adding this feature would be straightforward to an experienced template editor. [[User:Reify-tech|Reify-tech]] ([[User talk:Reify-tech|talk]]) 16:39, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

*'''Mild support''': I, too, am tired of total page counts showing up in {{para|pages}}, but I'm skeptical that this would curtail that problem, since people would have to read the documentation anyway to know about this new {{para|total_pages}} parameter, and if they were doing that they'd already know not to use {{para|pages}} for that purpose. So, I think the only real case for this is that being able to list the total pages might be useful. I think 99% of the time it's not. If we did implement it, I'd want to see it labeled as something to not use except in the circumstance you illustrate, or people will add it all over the place. [[Wikipedia:Is not]] a bibliographic database. The only helpful uses I can think of right off-hand are, like you say, identifying unusually large or unusually small sources. For the average 150&ndash;350 page book, it's useless trivia. Even for those two cases of usefulness, this information can simply be added manually after the citation template, though, so .... <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ </span> 09:53, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

*'''Support''': I'd kind of like this, too, if only so I could do something useful with page counts improperly given as {{para|pages}}. Another thing to do might be to rename {{{para|pages}}} to something less confusing, and add a tracking category for pages that still use it. Of course, it'd take forever to sort it all out if we tried to actually go through the category page-by-page, but at least it'd clue in those editors who happen to glance at the hidden categories when a specific page could use a look. &mdash;[[User:SamB|SamB]] ([[User talk:SamB|talk]]) 16:18, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

*I don't think this should be added, as this is not the sort of information usually found in a reference, and goes beyond the function of identifying the source. It will encourage people to copy cruft from Google books and the like into citations. As for misuse of {{{para|pages}}}, perhaps we could flag as an error cases where the value of {{{para|pages}}} contains only digits. [[User talk:Kanguole|Kanguole]] 14:22, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

== Format parameter ==

For whatever reason, the "format" parameter capitalizes its value, and in some cases it creates red links. I recently met two of them, e.g., [[RealMedia]] was converted into [[REALMEDIA]] and it was redlink. I created redirects for the ones I saw, but it there may be more. Also, potentially it may create disamigiation problem. Did anybody give this a thought? -M.Altenmann [[user talk:Altenmann|>'''t''']] 04:48, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

:This bug is fixed in the sandbox version of the Citation Style 1 module. See [[Help_talk:Citation_Style_1/Archive_8#Update_complete|this discussion]]. Example:

:{{cite compare|mode=book|old=no|title=Title|author=Author|format=RealMedia|url=http://www.example.com}}

:The sandbox code has typically been migrated to the production module code every few months. It has been two months since the last update. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 05:21, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

== Propose trans-work parameter ==

The name of the cited work may not be in English. It may even be rendered in a non-roman alphabet. We have trans-title and script-title when the title of the article (for periodicals) is not in English. We could use corressponding trans-work and script-work parameters. See [[Japan Chernobyl Foundation ]] for a recent example where this would be helpful. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|^(talk)]] 12:03, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

== Date span ==

Sometimes two dates are provided. For example "Nov. - Dec., 1969" here: http://www.jstor.org/stable/2459036?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents [[User:Darekk2|Darekk2]] ([[User talk:Darekk2|talk]]) 13:16, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

:{{replyto|Darekk2}} That's not a problem. Use {{para|date|November–December 1969}} --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 14:14, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

:: yes, maybe I used wrong "-" character[[User:Darekk2|Darekk2]] ([[User talk:Darekk2|talk]]) 14:40, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

== accessdate and named references used multiple times ==

A specific named reference may be used many times in the text of an article. Some points in the article may be supported by the reference and others not. If a fact checker finds a named reference, with an accessdate, used multiple times, with some uses supported by the reference and others not, what then? What if someone starts an article like this:

<nowiki>The Sun is pretty big.<ref name="Miller"/></nowiki>

<nowiki>== References ==</nowiki>

<nowiki>{{reflist|refs=</nowiki>

<nowiki><ref name="Miller">{{cite journal |author=Miller |title=The sun's size |url=http://sunjournal.com/MillerSunArticle.html |journal=Sun Journal |year=2005 |accessdate=January 1, 2015}}</ref></nowiki>

<nowiki>}}</nowiki>

Which would display as

The Sun is pretty big.<ref name="Miller"/>

{{fake heading|sub=2|References}}

{{reflist|refs=

<ref name="Miller">{{cite journal |author=Miller |title=The sun's size |url=http://sunjournal.com/MillerSunArticle.html |journal=Sun Journal |year=2005 |accessdate=January 1, 2015}}</ref>

}}

After a few edits the article says:

<nowiki>The Sun is pretty big.<ref name="Miller"/> The Sun is mostly boron.<ref name="Miller"/> The Sun is also quite hot.<ref name="Miller"/></nowiki>

<nowiki>== References ==</nowiki>

<nowiki>{{reflist|refs=</nowiki>

<nowiki><ref name="Miller">{{cite journal |author=Miller |title=The sun's size |url=http://sunjournal.com/MillerSunArticle.html |journal=Sun Journal |year=2005 |accessdate=January 1, 2015}}</ref></nowiki>

<nowiki>}}</nowiki>

Which would display as

The Sun is pretty big.<ref name="Miller"/> The Sun is mostly boron.<ref name="Miller"/> The Sun is also quite hot.<ref name="Miller"/>

{{fake heading|sub=2|References}}

{{reflist|refs=

<ref name="Miller">{{cite journal |author=Miller |title=The sun's size |url=http://sunjournal.com/MillerSunArticle.html |journal=Sun Journal |year=2005 |accessdate=January 1, 2015}}</ref>

}}

Then a fact checker comes along and notices that the Miller article doesn't say anything about the Sun's composition or temperature. The fact checker can insert a <nowiki>{{failed verification}}</nowiki> after the second and third &lt;ref>s, but what about the accessdate? From this thought experiment it should be apparent that it is illogical for accessdates, which can be associated with named references used multiple times, to signify anything more than "The referenced article really existed at this URL on this date."—[[User:Anomalocaris|Anomalocaris]] ([[User talk:Anomalocaris|talk]]) 19:38, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

:That's why we have {{para|archive-url}} and the Internet Archive. Check to see if there is a version of the page from close to the access date. If that version verifies the text, insert the archive-url and archive-date. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 21:42, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

::That might apply in cases where the URL points to a page that changes over time, and the external article at different times supported various different points in the Wikipedia article. But I'm thinking about journal and newspaper articles (which typically do not change), where a Wikipedia editor used an existing named reference to support a something the reference doesn't support. —[[User:Anomalocaris|Anomalocaris]] ([[User talk:Anomalocaris|talk]]) 22:32, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

:Whether or not this is the right approach, if a source has a date associated with it, like a newspaper article, I do not enter access-date; rather, I reserve use of access-date to those sources which lack any date associated with their publication (most cite-web references). In this case, the access-date should apply to both existence and support. I was told at one time a few years back that if you review/update/check a citation, you should verify whether or not all uses of the reference are valid in the context of the article. --User:Ceyockey (<small>''[[User talk:Ceyockey|talk to me]]''</small>) 23:11, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

== cite book: author vs. first/last ==

Hi there,

regularly I edit in deWP. There, in deWP, it is prefered to use [[de:Vorlage:Literatur]] instead of [[de:Vorlage:Cite book]]. So I am firm with Vorlage:Literatur but not with Template:Cite book.

I'd like to transfer some Vorlage:Literatur-Refs to Vorlage:Cite book-Refs. Problem: Vorlage:Literatur just uses "autor" where the author is placed like "autor=Peter Pan" ... an on the other side I do not really get through the descriptions provided on [[Template:Cite book]]:

* Given example1: "To cite a book with a <u>credited</u> author" -> just "first" / "last"

* Given example2: "To cite a book with <u>no credited</u> author" -> just "author"

* In the "Full parameter set in vertical format" there is no parameter "author" described ...

?hmm?

# What is the difference between a "credited" and a "no credited" author?

# Does the parameter "author" really exist? Even if its not described within "Full parameter set in vertical format"?

# Why is there such a strict separation between the different authors (first1, first2, and so on)?

I am asking this (beside the fact that i'd like to understand it ;-), because I'm thinking about using JavaScript to do the transformation-work automatically.

thx for your help

[[User:AKor4711|AKor4711]] ([[User talk:AKor4711|talk]]) 17:39, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

:Try {{tlx|Literatur}}. It maps the Vorlage:Literatur parameters to {{tlx|citation}} parameters using {{tlx|citation/core}}. No JavaScript required. There is a caveat: {{tld|citation}} is {{cs2}} so citation elements are separated with commas rather than the periods used by {{tlx|cite book}} and other {{cs1}} templates.

:#the "no credited author" example is probably inappropriate in {{tld|cite book}} (it is appropriate for a newspaper where an author's name may not be provided)

:#{{para|author}} is a legitimate parameter that is an alias of {{para|last}}; see [[Template:Cite_book#Authors]]

:#because the code isn't smart enough to separate given names from surnames for use in the citation's [[COinS]] metadata

:—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 17:58, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

:Notice that in the no credited author example, the author parameter is set to an HTML comment, so it does not appear in the rendered citation. The author parameter is best used for corporate authors. The documentation page says "For corporate authors, simply use last to include the same format as the source." I disagree with that instruction; whoever wrote that was thinking too much like a template coder and too little like an editor. [[User:Jc3s5h|Jc3s5h]] ([[User talk:Jc3s5h|talk]]) 20:50, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your help ... the {{tlx|Literatur}} shocks me: A german template within enWP? Wow ^^ ... anyway: that template does exactly what I wanted to do via JavaScript -> saves some work ... :-))) --[[User:AKor4711|AKor4711]] ([[User talk:AKor4711|talk]]) 01:46, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

== Hyphen conversion in cite book ==

At [[Template:Cite book#In-source locations]], it states, "Hyphens are automatically converted to en dashes;...". This apparently is not working. See [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Oxy-fuel_welding_and_cutting&oldid=670783736 here] and search for "15-52" [[User:Bgwhite|Bgwhite]] ([[User talk:Bgwhite|talk]]) 19:02, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

: {{Ping|Bgwhite}} is misreading the documentation; {{para|page}} is not {{para|pages}}. Hyphens are converted in the later. See further debate at [[User talk:Bgwhite#hypenated pages]]. [[User:Glrx|Glrx]] ([[User talk:Glrx|talk]]) 19:15, 10 July 2015 (UTC)