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::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 12:44, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
== Question about CS1 maint: Extra text ==
I have submitted [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/BattyBot 46]] to fix articles in [[:Category:CS1 maint: Extra text]]. The category page states "This is a tracking category for [[WP:CS1|CS1 citation]] parameters that have parameters that contain text that duplicates static text provided by the template. For example, {{para|edition|2nd ed}} will be rendered as (2nd ed ed.)."
However, there are articles in this category that do not meet this criteria.
Reference #72 in [[1956 Winter Olympics]] is presumably in this category because of the {{para|pages}}:
<pre>{{cite journal |title=IOC and OCOG Abbreviations for NOCs |last=Mallon |first=Bill |author2=[[Ove Karlsson (sports journalist)|Ove Karlsson]] |journal=[[Journal of Olympic History]] |volume=12 |issue=2 |date=May 2004 |pages=pp. 25–28 |url=http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/JOH/JOHv12n2/johv12n2l.pdf |format=PDF |accessdate=2 March 2010}}</pre>
*{{cite journal |title=IOC and OCOG Abbreviations for NOCs |last=Mallon |first=Bill |author2=[[Ove Karlsson (sports journalist)|Ove Karlsson]] |journal=[[Journal of Olympic History]] |volume=12 |issue=2 |date=May 2004 |pages=pp. 25–28 |url=http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/JOH/JOHv12n2/johv12n2l.pdf |format=PDF |accessdate=2 March 2010}}
However, if we remove "pp." from the parameter value, we see that "pp." is not static text provided by {{tl|cite journal}}:
<pre>{{cite journal |title=IOC and OCOG Abbreviations for NOCs |last=Mallon |first=Bill |author2=[[Ove Karlsson (sports journalist)|Ove Karlsson]] |journal=[[Journal of Olympic History]] |volume=12 |issue=2 |date=May 2004 |pages=25–28 |url=http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/JOH/JOHv12n2/johv12n2l.pdf |format=PDF |accessdate=2 March 2010}}</pre>
*{{cite journal |title=IOC and OCOG Abbreviations for NOCs |last=Mallon |first=Bill |author2=[[Ove Karlsson (sports journalist)|Ove Karlsson]] |journal=[[Journal of Olympic History]] |volume=12 |issue=2 |date=May 2004 |pages=25–28 |url=http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/JOH/JOHv12n2/johv12n2l.pdf |format=PDF |accessdate=2 March 2010}}
How should we resolve this discrepancy?
# Change {{tl|cite journal}} so that it always displays "pp."?
# Change {{tl|cite journal}} so the maintenance category is not populated in this case?
# Change the category description to explain why it is inappropriate to put "pp." in {{para|pages}} in this case?
# Something else?
Thanks! [[User:GoingBatty|GoingBatty]] ([[User talk:GoingBatty|talk]]) 15:51, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
#There has been discussion on these pages before about making {{tld|cite journal}} render the 'p.' and 'pp.' prefixes when the citation does not use {{para|volume}} and {{para|issue}}
#No
#In the case of {{tlx|cite journal}}, the 'p.' and 'pp.' prefixes duplicate the colon (which for this template is the static text):
#:<code><nowiki>{{cite journal |title=Title |journal=Journal |page=100}}</nowiki></code>
#::{{cite journal |title=Title |journal=Journal |page=100}}
#perhaps. such as?
:—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 16:11, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
::The problem also appears when using {{tl|citation}} where you end up with a meaningless number for the page number. Can we do something to always render the p. or pp. for page number as the colon is not intuitive and we are producing references which are not easily understood by the majority of readers. If this needs a wider discussion then we should set one up so that we can see if there is consensus for change. [[User:Keith D|Keith D]] ([[User talk:Keith D|talk]]) 18:49, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
:::When citing scholarly journals, {{tlx|cite journal}} and {{tlx|citation}} follow the model established and used by scholarly journals: volume (issue): page(s). Why should cs1|2 deviate from that standardized presentation? For example, PMID 11470414 cites the journal date; ___location this way: Curr Biol. 2001 Jul 10;11(13):1068-73.
:::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 23:21, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
::::Problem comes when you are not using the volume and issue fields but just a page number it just shown a number that has no context and which needs something to show its purpose. I would guess that most readers would not know what the number relates to. [[User:Keith D|Keith D]] ([[User talk:Keith D|talk]]) 23:32, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
:::::Why are you leaving out those rather important bits of information? Volume and issue are, pretty much, requisite elements of a proper journal cite, are they not?
:::::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 23:51, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
::::::Because it is not a journal but a newspaper. [[User:Keith D|Keith D]] ([[User talk:Keith D|talk]]) 00:23, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
:::::::Why are you not using {{tl|cite news}}? Use the correct tool for the job. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 00:38, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
:::::::Argh! Why didn't you say you were citing a newspaper and not a journal? {{tlx|citation}} doesn't do a good job of citing newspapers. To get around that, do as Editor Izno suggested and also add {{para|mode|cs2}} so that you get a rendered citation that looks like it was made with {{tld|citation}}.
:::::::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 00:59, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
::::::::A better example would not be a newspaper but a magazine. The correct tool for the job would be {{tlx|cite magazine}} - but {{tlx|cite magazine}} is a redirect to {{tlx|cite journal}}, and not all magazines have volume or issue numbers. Some do: {{diff|Watford tube station|prev|656434841|this one}} for instance, but by no means all. Some people refuse to add the issue number even if one exists, on the basis that the cover date is sufficient to identify the issue. So when {{tlx|cite journal}} is used, there is actually a fair chance that no issue number has been provided. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 08:20, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::That would suggest that perhaps, {{tld|cite magazine}} should redirect to {{tlx|cite news}} instead of {{tlx|cite journal}} because {{tld|cite news}} also supports {{para|volume}} and {{para|issue}} but uses p. and pp. prefixes:
::::::::::{{cite news |title=Cite news with volume and issue |magazine=Magazine |volume=X |issue=23 |pages=50-76}}
:::::::::Alternately, we might modify {{para|p-prefix}} and {{para|pp-prefix}} handling within [[Module:Citation/CS1]] to override the colon for journal cites. Then again, perhaps not. An insource search for 'p-prefix' and 'pp-prefix' finds no instances of either of the prefix parameters. If editors aren't using them is there any reason to keep them?
:::::::::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 10:13, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
::::::::::I have two ideas in this regard. The first is to possibly remove the compressed format for journals and use "vol. 1, no. 2, p. 3" or similar. CMOS16 uses "1, no. 2 (XXX): 3" (where the XXXX is the date or year of publication. This would have the advantage that page numbers would then always be preceded by the appropriate abbreviation, and readers who aren't familiar with the meaning of the bold-faced and bracketed numbers or the colon would have a more explicit frame of reference in the reference.
::::::::::The other idea is to emit the "p." or "pp." as appropriate unless a volume, an issue or both are also defined. So: "'''1''' (2): 3", "'''1''': 3", "(2):3" or just plain "p. 3" would be display options depending on what parameters are defined. The latter idea may be simpler to code, and bots could then strip manually inserted "p." or "pp." to avoid doubling up. <span style="background:#006B54; padding:2px;">'''[[User:Imzadi1979|<font color="white">Imzadi 1979</font>]] [[User talk:Imzadi1979|<font color="white"><big>→</big></font>]]'''</span> 11:24, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::::I would favour the first option as that removes any ambiguity for the reader. [[User:Keith D|Keith D]] ([[User talk:Keith D|talk]]) 11:41, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
::::::::::::{{replyto|Trappist the monk}} Altering {{noredirect|Template:Cite magazine}} to point to {{tlx|cite news}} instead of {{tlx|cite journal}} should not be undertaken lightly. It has been suggested before, several times, in different venues. For instance, at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Academic Journals/Journals cited by Wikipedia#Unfortunate interaction between template and wikiproject]]. Notice in particular my comment of 14:02, 2 October 2011: whenever I have used {{tlx|cite magazine}}, someone with AWB has popped by and altered it to {{tlx|cite journal}}. So altering the redirect will not fix everything, but will cause a large number of magazine citations that directly use {{tlx|cite journal}} to suddenly become "wrong".
::::::::::::As for the suggestions of {{u|Imzadi1979}}: I go with the second - in the absence of volume and issue, emit "p." or "pp." --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 15:44, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
::::::::::::::If we right-this-minute stop AWB from doing its template rename thing as Editor John of Reading suggests, {{tlx|cite magazine}} is used in 1924 pages and {{tlx|cite journal}} used in 419,414 pages. Clearly that latter number is big, but that's not the group we care about. The group we care about is the {{tld|cite magazine}} group and there, the work is to inspect those cites to see if they changed to {{tld|cite journal}} or to {{tlx|cite news}}.
:::::::::::::
::::::::::::::We could set up a maintenance category and have [[Module:Citation/CS1]] populate it with pages that have {{tld|cite journal}} templates that don't use a specified subset of the identifiers (arxiv, bibcode, doi, jfm, jstor, pmc, pmid, etc) which identifiers are commonly associated with academic journals. Based on the content of the category we could make a better decision on how to proceed with the {{tld|cite magazine}} question.
::::::::::::::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 19:07, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::::::{{Re|Redrose64}} If this discussion does end up with an agreed edit to the redirect, you can instantly reconfigure AWB's behaviour by editing [[WP:AWB/TR]]. -- [[User:John of Reading|John of Reading]] ([[User talk:John of Reading|talk]]) 16:10, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
::::::::::::::That's not what I mean. My point is: who is going to go around undoing all the bypassing of redirects that AWB users have already done? --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 16:22, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
::::::::::::::{{replyto|John of Reading}} For example, the edit I mentioned at 08:20, 5 August 2015, has now been {{diff|Watford tube station|prev|674805528|redirect-bypassed by AWB}} to use {{tlx|cite journal}} instead of {{tlx|cite magazine}}. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 11:01, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
::::::::Not using the {{tl|cite news}} template so as to avoid mixing CS1 and CS2 style templates in the same article as that causes inconsistencies in the output of the information. Personally I tend to use CS1 templates and avoid CS2 where possible. [[User:Keith D|Keith D]] ([[User talk:Keith D|talk]]) 11:34, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::The purpose of {{para|mode}} is to allow mixing cs1 and cs2 templates while retaining the characteristic display style of one. So, if an article uses {{tlx|citation}} but needs to cite a newspaper and {{tlx|cite news}} does a better job at that than {{tld|citation}}, use {{tld|cite news}} and set {{para|mode|cs2}} so that the rendered output is in the cs2 format:
::::::::::{{citation |title=A book source using citation |author=Author |___location=Location |publisher=Publisher |date=5 August 2015 |page=100}}
::::::::::{{cite news |title=A newspaper source using cite news and mode=cs2 |newspaper=Newspaper |author=Author |date=5 August 2015 |mode=cs2}}
:::::::::To make {{tld|citation}} render in the style of cs1, set {{para|mode|cs1}}
:::::::::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 11:53, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
::Related question - when editors add "p" or "pp" to the parameter value because it is not automatically displayed, does this mess up the [[COinS]] metadata? Thanks! [[User:GoingBatty|GoingBatty]] ([[User talk:GoingBatty|talk]]) 19:01, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
:::Judging by the two examples which you provided at the start, yes. The first has <samp>&amp;rft.pages=pp.+25-28</samp> where the second has <samp>&amp;rft.pages=25-28</samp> --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 20:05, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
== Non-URL not detected? ==
I came across this citation in [[¿Dónde Están Mis Amigos?]]:
{{cite compare |sandbox=yes |mode=web |url=Salaverri, Fernando. Sólo éxitos: año a año : 1959-2002. Iberautor Promociones Culturales, 2005. ISBN 84-8048-639-2|title=Spanish album certifications – Extremoduro – ¿Dónde están mis amigos? |work=[[Promusicae]] |language=Spanish |accessdate=1999}}
The 1999 access date properly throws an error, but the URL does not, even though it probably should. Can the module code be tweaked to detect the above URL value as an error? – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 11:52, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
:I suggested such a check [[Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 8#Extra checking of URL|here]] but there was no response. [[User:Keith D|Keith D]] ([[User talk:Keith D|talk]]) 12:34, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
::The extra stuff in {{para|url}} like that of your example citation is caught by the modified test described below:
:::<code><nowiki>{{cite news/new| url=Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/01/police-union-wants-protection-under-hate-crime-law-113976.html#ixzz3Y5B26xv1| title=Police union wants protection under hate crime law| publisher=Politico| date=January 5, 2015}}</nowiki></code>
::::{{cite news/new| url=Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/01/police-union-wants-protection-under-hate-crime-law-113976.html#ixzz3Y5B26xv1| title=Police union wants protection under hate crime law| publisher=Politico| date=January 5, 2015}}
::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 13:04, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
{{ec}}
:The value in {{para|url}} is not determined to be bad because it contains one or more colons. To satisfy the one of the conditions of the test, a colon may be preceded by anything but a forward slash. I don't think that spaces are allowed in a uri so I've tweaked the test so that the test will fail if the uri has spaces. More research is required I think. I've tweaked your compare template.
:—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 12:48, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
::Indeed, ''external'' links in Wikipedia cannot have a space since we cannot manipulate the href attribute of the a. However, they can have a character encoded space e.g. %20. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 13:37, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
:::External links in WP cannot contain white space, per [[Help:URL#Linking_to_URLs]]. I wanted to make sure that there was verification of this statement, and it looks like there is.
:::I suspect that this new test will unearth a lot of faulty URL parameter values (I'm guessing between 1,000 and 10,000) that have previously gone undetected. More work for us gnomes.... – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 14:13, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
::::The gnomes shall inherit... --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 14:43, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
:::::It's not just external links in Wikipedia. URLs ''anywhere'' cannot contain spaces (internal links in Wikipedia that contain spaces actually contain underscores when expressed as URLs) - they're not explicitly allowed by [[rfc:3986|RFC 3986]], therefore they are forbidden. [[Percent encoding]] is a way to workaround the problem that forbids the use of several characters (not just spaces) in URLs, see [[rfc:3986#section-2.1|section 2.1. Percent-Encoding]]. Indeed, spaces can have a special meaning, see [[rfc:3986#appendix-C|Appendix C]]. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 19:40, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
:This added check does seem like an improvement to the templates. Have the templates also recently changed to turn newlines in article titles into spaces? I seem to remember that causing problems with links before, but now I can't get it to misbehave. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 20:39, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
I've tweaked the url test a bit. The first thing the sandbox does is look for space characters in the whole of the url. In the earlier fix the sandbox checked for space characters only in the scheme portion. Next the sandbox tests for protocol relative urls (those urls that begin with '//' – no scheme). And lastly sandbox looks at the composition of the scheme itself. The scheme must begin with a letter, may contain letters, digits, and the plus, period and hyphen ('+', '.', '-') characters and be terminated with a colon (':').
*{{cite web/new |title=Fail: no scheme, not protocol relative |url=www.example.com}}
*{{cite web/new |title=Fail: no colon |url=http//www.example.com}}
*{{cite web/new |title=Fail: scheme begins with a digit |url=8http://www.example.com}}
*{{cite web/new |title=Fail: space in scheme |url=ht tp://www.example.com}}
*{{cite web/new |title=Fail: space in ___domain name |url=http://www.ex ample.com}}
*{{cite web/new |title=Fail: wikimarkup |url=[http://www.example.com]}}
We support scheme:path urls in {{tlx|cite newsgroup}} so the url we create should look like <code><nowiki>news:comp.os.minix</nowiki></code>
*{{cite newsgroup/new |author=Tanenbaum, A. S. |title=LINUX is obsolete |date=January 29, 1992 |newsgroup=comp.os.minix |message-id=12595@star.cs.vu.nl |quote=I am not unhappy with LINUX}}
And the usual suspects:
*{{cite web/new |title=Pass: protocol relative |url=//www.example.com}}
*{{cite web/new |title=Pass: http: scheme |url=http://www.example.com}}
*{{cite web/new |title=Pass: https: scheme |url=https://www.example.com}}
*{{cite web/new |title=Pass: ftp: scheme |url=ftp://ftp.example.com}}
There is a list of official and semi-official uri schemes at [[URI scheme]].
—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 23:13, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
:This seems suboptimal: {{tq|1=[www.example.com "Fail: no scheme, not protocol relative"]}}. Anything that parses as a ___domain name should be treated by default as if preceded by http://, I would think. Or if that's hard to detect without false positives, anything of the form <code>ww*.*.*[.*[.*]]</code> should probably be treated that way (<code>ww*.</code> to catch "ww2.", "www2.", etc.; and <code>[.*[.*]]</code> to catch long university ___domain names, like worst case scenario: www2.phys.sci.ic.ac.uk, to make one up). <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 12:04, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
::I disagree; one could set up an FTP server at www.example.com. Or any of a number of other schemes, such as mailto. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 01:15, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
:::So? I could name my cat www.feedme.com. It's not reasonable to expect non-web addresses in this field (unless someone very explicitly puts in something like "ftp://..."), any more than pet's names appearing here. We can't reasonably be expected to account for every PEBKAC situation. It is increasingly and very common for people to drop the "http://" from Web addresses, since there are [probably] zero extant browsers that don't do precisely what I'm suggesting here: Treat a URL without the protocol identifier as an http:// URL by default. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 23:58, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
::::How do we positively identify a URL if it does not have http:// at the start? What pattern do we search for? For some real-life examples of what editors do to the {{para|url}} parameter, look through {{cl|Pages with URL errors}}. At least half of the ones I just looked at would not link to a source if we simply added "http://" to the front of the parameter's value. Those need to be tagged or investigated by a human, something that would not happen without the error message. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 01:12, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
:::::I already gave the pattern to look for (albeit not as a regexp). <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 17:16, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
::::<p>Actually, there's a more trivial use case to consider: the odd website that does not serve content over HTTP but instead HTTPS. Like we do, these days. HTTP happens to redirect but that's a function of the particular website, not a global assumption that can be made. Regardless of what browsers do, I would prefer to see the error rather than gracefully permit an editor to leave off the scheme where it might be the case that the page in question does not use HTTP.<p>{{ping|Trappist the monk}} I assume this is the case, but does {{para|archiveurl}} have these checks? --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 17:44, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
:::::yes. It's part of the code that renders a wiki external link so applies to all external links made by the module:
::::::{{cite web/new |url=/example.org |title=Example |archive-url=8ttp://example.com |archive-date=2015-08-06}} –
::::::{{cite book/new |chapter-url=example.org |chapter=Chapter |title=Example}}
:::::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 18:01, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
== HTML5 bait-and-switch: The <samp>cite</samp> element again ==
{{FYI|Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere}}
See [[MediaWiki talk:Common.css#The cite element needs to not auto-italicize any longer]]. Summary: After something of an HTML developer community revolt, the early HTML5 change of {{tag|cite|o}} element to only pertain to the title of the work has been abandoned since late 2013, and the published, non-draft version of HTML5 (issued in late 2014) has gone back to HTML 4.01's broader scope for this element (and this is maintained in the HTML5.1 draft). So, the auto-italicizing of this element needs to stop, its use at [[Template:Quote]] needs to shift back, and that may need to be done here in CS1, too, if we're making any use of it. The element, though commonly used with {{tag|blockquote|o}}; is not tied to it; rather, it generically represents any citation. Now that the title-only change has been abandoned, {{tag|cite}} should surround the entire citation generated by CS1 (and the rest of the citation templates), but only after MW:Common.css stops italicizing its content. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 10:14, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
:{{tag|cite}} is not used in cs1|2.
:—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 10:55, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
::But it could be. I'm not sure what [[Semantic HTML]] gold would be earned by doing so, but it's feasible (after the CSS tweak), and wouldn't seem to "cost" anything but a few characters. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 11:55, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
:::Not even that. Right now we wrap the citation in a {{tag|span}} which I think, could just as easily be {{tag|cite}}. From this:
::::<code><nowiki>{{cite book |title=Title |author=Author |___location=Location |publisher=Publisher |date=1 August 2015}}</nowiki></code>
:::[[Module:Citation/CS1]] creates this:
::::<code><nowiki><span class="citation book">Author (1 August 2015). ''Title''. Location: Publisher.</span></nowiki></code>
:::and could easily be changed create this:
::::<code><nowiki><cite class="citation book">Author (1 August 2015). ''Title''. Location: Publisher.</cite></nowiki></code>
:::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 14:25, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
::::Well, one would need to move the full stop I think since that's not part of the title, but that's a minor issue. Maybe that's actually a bug in the current module? --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 16:05, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
:::::I understood Editor SMcCandlish's comment to mean wrapping the entire cs1|2 citation in {{tag|cite}}. Adding separate tags to each title part (chapter, title, work) and each name (author, editor, other) seems enormously redundant given that the citation is the sum of all of its various parts which, each taken separately, may or may not be recognizable as a citation. If [[mw:common.css]] is changed so that italic styling is no longer applied to {{tag|cite}} then the change I illustrated, now expanded for clarity, can be made – assuming that w3c settles on a definition that isn't tied solely to titles or persons.
:::::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 16:47, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
::::::That was indeed his comment. I was commenting on the fact that your previous examples appeared to be outputting an incorrect span, but I see that's not the case now. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 18:21, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
:::::::Yes, I mean replace the entire {{tag|span}} with {{tag|cite}}. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 23:44, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
*The discussion is at [[MediaWiki talk:Common.css#The cite element needs to not auto-italicize any longer]]. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 17:52, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
::We can actually [[WP:IAR|just do this]] right now, using <code><nowiki><cite style="font-style: normal">...</cite></nowiki></code>, and not wait for the interminable [[WP:FILIBUSTER]] process at Mediawiki:Common.css, in which the [[WP:OWN|self-appointed gatekeepers]] generally will stonewall anything that doesn't do precisely what the W3C default suggestions are. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 23:44, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
:::{{tq|filibuster[ing] gatekeepers}}: Erm? --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 02:21, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
::::Don't need to get into it in detail here. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 17:14, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
:::::I was looking for a reason for the personal attacks. I agree you don't need to get into it here, and shouldn't have used the phrase at all.<p>That aside, I disagree with the assertion that {{tq|We can actually [[WP:IAR|just do this]] right now}}. Let's figure out whether we want to use cite that way first (there) and then we can make the change (here). --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 17:38, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
::::::It's not up to the CSS page to determine what elements and classes are to be used in Wikipedia. It's up to implementors of templates, etc., to determine what elements and classes they need implemented at the CSS page! You're putting the cart before the horse. More like putting the horse in the driver's seat of the cart. Also, criticism of longstanding editing patterns isn't an "attack". <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 03:15, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
:::::::<p>{{tq|It's not up to the CSS page}} I agree with. I disagree with {{tq|[i]t's up to implementors of templates, etc.}} My position is that you are, intentionally or otherwise, attempting to split discussion of what we ''should'' do with the element. Seeing as the discussion at MW:Common.css was opened prior to this one, my position is also that we should stop commenting here on that point.<p>{{tq|Also, criticism of longstanding editing patterns isn't an "attack".}} ''Any'' comment not in accordance with [[WP:NPA|NPA]] is on the wrong track. From that ''policy'', {{tq|Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor.}} In this case, it is clear to me you have commented on the contributors, not the content. If you think that there are problems with the users at that page, [[WP:ANI|ANI]] is -> that way. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 04:21, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
::::::::{{ping|Izno}} What we should do editorially {{em|with}} the element is entirely a matter for contextual discussion with regard to different templates and other situations, and across MW generally, not just at en.wp. I.e., those are automatically separate discussions. One thing that should be done with {{tag|cite|o}} is, for example, to wrap users' signatures in it on talk pages (when used with <code><nowiki>~~~</nowiki></code> and <code><nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></code>, which is attribution, but not with <code><nowiki>~~~~~</nowiki></code>, which is just a shorthand for date insertion). Something similar should be done around both parameters of {{tlx|Unsigned}}, and the attributive parameter of {{tlx|Talkquote}}. What should be done with it in the citation templates is wrap the entire output with it instead of with {{tag|span|o}}. What should be done with it at [[Template:Quote]] is put it around both the {{para|author}} and {{para|source}} parameters' output if one or both are used, and suppress it otherwise. And so on. I'm sure we can devise many distinct uses and implementations of this semantic metadata markup.</p><p>What we should do technologically {{em|about}} the element at Mediawiki/common.css is obviously to stop force-italicizing it, because that's pointless, wrong for most uses we can put to the element, and it interferes with and prejudices decisions about what we should do editorially {{em|with}} the element. Except when it is essentially impossible to work around, technological considerations never dictate content editing matters here.</p><p>These are completely severable discussions, and {{em|should}} be split. The fact that it's virtually impossible to get the controllers of that interface page to do even simple, commonsense things means that the editorial, context specific discussions necessarily need to address "routing around" this processual "damage" to get the work done. It would be completely ridiculous if 6 months from now we're still not doing the more useful things with this element simply because undoing the forced italics was still being stonewalled at Mediawiki/common.css, a sadly predictable outcome, though I may try an RfC to get it done. I'll also take the matter up with the MW developers, since this italicization doesn't make sense as a MW default to begin with, just as it did not for {{tag|dfn|o}}, but I'll have to bother to figure out the new-ish ticket tracking system. (Haven't filed a MW bug since they quit using Bugzilla.) <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 06:58, 7 August 2015 (UTC)</p>
== discontinuing support for some deprecated parameters ==
There are several deprecated parameters that I have been weeding out of {{cl|Pages containing cite templates with deprecated parameters}} over the past few months. When I started that category had 23k+ articles. Because the parameters that I propose to kill are rarely used, those that still exist will show up in {{cl|Pages with citations using unsupported parameters}}, a relatively small category. There is the additional benefit that the unsupported parameter error messages are not hidden so that editors other than the usual gnomes might (yeah, might) help to fix them. Here is a list of the parameters that I propose to kill:
these will be added to [[Module:Citation/CS1/Suggestions]]:
*{{para|authorformat}}
*{{para|author-format}}
*{{para|began}}
*{{para|editorformat}}
*{{para|editor-format}}
*{{para|ended}}
*{{para|separator}}
these not added to Module:Citation/CS1/Suggestions because lowercase versions will be automatically suggested by the code:
*{{para|Author}}
*{{para|Author''n''}}
*{{para|Editor}}
*{{para|Editor''n''}}
*{{para|EditorGiven}}
*{{para|EditorGiven''n''}}
*{{para|EditorSurname}}
*{{para|EditorSurname''n''}}
these not added to Module:Citation/CS1/Suggestions because there are no one-to-one replacements for them:
*{{para|author-name-separator}}
*{{para|author-separator}}
*{{para|chapter-link}}
*{{para|editor-name-separator}}
*{{para|editor-separator}}
*{{para|name-separator}}
Still deprecated then would be {{para|coauthor}}, {{para|coauthors}}, and {{para|month}}.
—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 18:24, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
:I've rearranged the list above because of the module handles incorrect case without needing to consult the suggestion list.
:—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 18:46, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
::'''Support'''. I think we should remove support for {{para|month}} as well, but we might need to have a separate, well-advertised thread for that suggestion. It has been deprecated for a long time, and there are periods where there are no instances of {{para|month}} at all, typically after one of us gnomes has used an insource search to find and fix a few dozen that have cropped up. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 00:59, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
:::Yeah, I just ran Monkbot task 1 and it made so 60 edits so I agree that we can kill {{para|month}}. I don't know if we need a separate thread to advertise that {{para|month}} is going to be killed. Certainly a post at [[User talk:ProveIt GT]] is in order – as I understand it, that tool is still emitting {{para|month}}.
:::—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 12:36, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
::::Two requests have been posted at the ProveIt talk page in the past couple of years. A bug report has also been filed at its Github site. I went to the Github site and attempted to submit a code change proposal, but I don't really know what I'm doing there, so I don't know if it will work. That's probably enough notice for ProveIt. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 13:39, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
:Some how, when we deprecated and removed the mixed case parameter names, we missed {{para|PPrefix}}. This parameter is, according to an insource search, not used so I will remove it.
:—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 10:19, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
I have deactivated the above named parameters. These citations are here to show that they are deactivated and that the changes necessary to deactivation did not break anything.
*{{cite book/new |title=Title |last=Last |first=FM |last2=Last2 |first2=FM |authorformat=vanc}}
*{{cite book/new |title=Title |last=Last |first=FM |last2=Last2 |first2=FM |author-format=vanc}}
*{{cite book/new |title=Title |editor-last=Last |editor-first=FM |last2=Last2 |first2=FM |editorformat=vanc}}
*{{cite book/new |title=Title |editor-last=Last |editor-first=FM |last2=Last2 |first2=FM |editor-format=vanc}}
*{{cite book/new |title=Title |last=Last |first=FM |last2=Last2 |first2=FM |separator=,}}
*{{cite book/new |title=Title |Author=Last FM |Author2=Last2 FM}}
*{{cite book/new |title=Title |Editor=Last FM |Editor2=Last2 FM}}
*{{cite book/new |title=Title |EditorSurname=Last |EditorGiven=FM |EditorSurname2=Last2 |EditorGiven2=FM}}
*{{cite book/new |title=Title |last=Last |first=FM |last2=Last2 |first2=FM |author-separator=!}}
*{{cite book/new |title=Title |last=Last |first=FM |last2=Last2 |first2=FM |author-name-separator=!}}
*{{cite book/new |title=Title |last=Last |first=FM |last2=Last2 |first2=FM |editor-separator=!}}
*{{cite book/new |title=Title |last=Last |first=FM |last2=Last2 |first2=FM |editor-name-separator=!}}
*{{cite book/new |title=Title |last=Last |first=FM |last2=Last2 |first2=FM |name-separator=!}}
*{{cite book/new |title=Title |last=Last |first=FM |last2=Last2 |first2=FM |PPrefix=!}}
*{{cite book/new |title=Title |chapter=Chapter |chapterlink=Chapter |last=Last |first=FM |last2=Last2 |first2=FM}}
*{{cite book/new |title=Title |chapter=Chapter |chapter-link=Chapter |last=Last |first=FM |last2=Last2 |first2=FM}}
*{{cite book/new |title=Title |last=Last |first=FM |month=October |year=1963}}
*{{cite book/new |title=Title |last=Last |first=FM |began=10 October 1963 |ended=15 October 1963}}
**tests to prove that removing {{para|began}} / {{para|ended}} did not break these:
***{{cite book/new |title=Title |last=Last |first=FM |year=1963 |publication-date=10 October 1963}}
***{{cite book/new |title=Title |last=Last |first=FM |publication-date=10 October 1963}}
***{{cite book/new |title=Title |last=Last |first=FM |year=1963 |publication-date=10 October 1963}}
While not a result of this deactivation, the tests for {{para|EditorGiven2}} and {{para|EditorSurname2}} do show that the suggestion code doesn't support enumerated parameters. I've added that to [[Module talk:Citation/CS1/Feature requests|Feature requests]].
—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 15:20, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
== Erroneous maintenance warning ==
I'm afraid that the error checking is treating <code>|edition=Updated</code> as an error. I imagine we need to check for <code>/\b[Ee]d\W*$/</code> or whatever in the regular expression (or whatever). Please see [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genie_(feral_child)&diff=prev&oldid=674752869 this edit] which showed the problem. --[[User:Mirokado|Mirokado]] ([[User talk:Mirokado|talk]]) 22:49, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
:This has been fixed in the sandbox. See [[Help_talk:Citation_Style_1#extra_text_in_.7Cedition.3D_detection_bug]] and [[Help_talk:Citation_Style_1#.22Revised.22_in_edition_parameter_is_triggering_maintenance]].
:—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 23:00, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
:: Thanks, I didn't notice the other sections. --[[User:Mirokado|Mirokado]] ([[User talk:Mirokado|talk]]) 12:47, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
== Minor bug in [[Template:Cite book]] ==
It's no longer properly supporting the {{para|work}} parameter:
{{cite book |first=A. U.|last=Thor|chapter=My First Chapter|work=My First Book|date=2015}}
While it displays {{para|work}} as an alias of {{para|title}}, the missing title routine fails to do so.
This obviously impedes correction of misuse of {{tlx|Cite journal}} and {{tlx|Cite web}} for books. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 23:53, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
:Back in the old days of {{tlx|citation/core}}, {{para|work}} and its aliases were ignored by {{tlx|cite book}}.
:{{para|title}} has no aliases.
:Whatever content is contained in {{para|work}} in {{tld|cite book}} is not passed on to the metadata because there is no place for it
:Perhaps, {{para|work}} and its aliases should again be ignored for {{tld|cite book}} and perhaps other cs1 templates
:—[[User:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] ([[User talk:Trappist the monk|talk]]) 10:27, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
::Need to do the opposite, since having {{para|work}} not function for this and some other templates {{tq|obviously impedes correction of misuse of {{tlx|Cite journal}} and {{tlx|Cite web}} for books.}} <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 17:12, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
:::Use {{tlx|cite encyclopedia}} instead, with the same parameters: {{cite encyclopedia |first=A. U.|last=Thor|chapter=My First Chapter|work=My First Book|date=2015}} --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 19:10, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
::::Yet another "use the wrong template, which someone else will just revert later" non-solution. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 03:17, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
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