Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 April 9: Difference between revisions
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* '''Keep''': these are valid subdivisions of the category:Critics of Islam. Especially the Category:Former Muslim critics of Islam (which might require a rephrasing just for clarity, perhaps 'Former Muslims who criticise Islam'? Otherwise it suggests that these people criticised Islam back in the day when they were still Muslims themselves, but not necessarily after leaving Islam) has merit. Their lines of argument are often rather different from e.g. Christian critics of Islam, who often frame this debate in terms of 'Christian countries versus Islamic countries' and the need for immigration to from the latter to the former to stop and close the borders, whereas most ex-Muslims (many of whom are themselves migrants/refugees from Muslim-majority countries to (formerly) Christian-majority countries) regard this as unacceptable xenophobia, generalisations and a lack of humanitarianism. The kind of criticism you get from former members of a religion, who experienced it themselves, will always provide a different perspective than the criticism from outsiders. I think this is a useful distinction that Wikipedia should make. [[User:Nederlandse Leeuw|Nederlandse Leeuw]] ([[User talk:Nederlandse Leeuw|talk]]) 07:27, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
* '''Comment''' - I think the keep !votes of Ishbiliyya and Nederlandse Leeuw highlight the different reasons why individuals or movements might be critics of Islam, whether it for dogmatic, social, economic, cultural reasons etc. However at the same time I cannot support the keeping of these categories, namely because for many individuals their religious/spiritual/ideological positions are often private and/or do not neatly fit into one category, for example a former Muslim could be secular/irreligious such as [[Afshin Ellian]] or [[Ayaan Hirsi Ali]], or could belong to another religion such as [[Nabeel Qureshi (author)]] or [[Ali Sina (activist)]]. In these articles it would take two seperate categories to describe the same thing that one category did adequately. Also I am a bit hesitant over the "X critics of Y", as if for example the fact that an indidual is Hindu/Buddhist/Christian/Sikh etc. inavertly make it seem that their criticism is more/less valid than an irreligious/atheist/agnostic/secular individual? Lastley Islam like all religions and ideologies is far from homogeneous, there are a variety of movements and denominations within Islam, some of which are critics of each other. For example [[Ulil Abshar Abdalla]] often criticizes conservatic Muslim stances in Indonesia, and many conservative Muslims criticize him, so are they [[:Category:Muslim critics of Islam]]? I just see a can of worms being opened here that will lead to edit wars, sorry for the block of text [[User:Inter&anthro|Inter&anthro]] ([[User talk:Inter&anthro|talk]]) 02:44, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
* '''Merge''' to [[:Category:Critics of Islam]], this type of categorization easily becomes too subjective. Many critics in this tree are Europeans and Americans and it is often unclear whether they should be classified as Christian or secular. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 22:04, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
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