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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==== Category:Jewish critics of Islam ====
[[File:Symbol move vote.svg|16px|link=|alt=]] '''Relisted''', see [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 May 4%23Category:Jewish critics of Islam]]<!-- Template:Cfd relisted -->
:* '''Propose deleting''' {{lc|Jewish critics of Islam}}<br />
:* '''Propose deleting''' {{lc|Former Muslim critics of Islam}}<br />
:* '''Propose deleting''' {{lc|Christian critics of Islam}}<br />
:* '''Propose deleting''' {{lc|Hindu critics of Islam}}<br />
:* '''Propose deleting''' {{lc|Buddhist critics of Islam}}<br />
:* '''Propose deleting''' {{lc|Secular critics of Islam}}<br />
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' Setting up religious critics of x religion raises too many issues about sources, BLP etc for me. I see the same editor created [[:Category:Former Muslim critics of Islam ]], [[:Category:Christian critics of Islam]]. [[: Category:Hindu critics of Islam]]. [[:Category:Jewish critics of Islam]] and [[:Category:Buddhist critics of Islam]]. I haven't done an exhaustive check but I'm not finding categories for Christian critics of.. or Islamic/Muslim critics of... [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 09:42, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
* '''Keep''': the [[:Category:Critics of Islam]] is currently too large, overly broad and difficult to navigate otherwise, justifying the existence of sub-categories dealing with critics of Islam from various different perspectives. It doesn't make much sense, for example, to have [[John of Damascus]] (a Christian), [[Richard Dawkins]] (a Secularist) and [[Bal Thackeray]] (a Hindu ultra-nationalist) all lumped together in one category, as they cite completely different reasons for their criticisms. So disambiguation is more useful for the reader and makes sense. [[User:Ishbiliyya|Ishbiliyya]] ([[User talk:Ishbiliyya|talk]]) 13:39, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
* '''Delete all'''. This division does not make particular sense to me. The overlaps between these groups in this matter far exceed their differences, and the categories themselves will inevitably attract [[WP:BLP]] violations: witness this sample of erroneous additions by the category creator: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nick_Cohen&type=revision&diff=891452943&oldid=891227431][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jack_Buckby&action=history][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Michael_Coren&type=revision&diff=891453077&oldid=862550686][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mark_Steyn&type=revision&diff=891461532&oldid=884875650] [[:Category:Critics of Christianity]], [[:Category:Critics of Judaism]] etc. aren't divided this way. In fact, like Doug Weller, I can't find any other categories like these. [[User:Jayjg|Jayjg]] <sup><small>[[User talk:Jayjg|<span style="color: DarkGreen;">(talk)</span>]]</small></sup> 15:57, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
::There are over 350 articles in the Critics of Islam category and only 16 in the Critics of Judaism category, while the latter could indeed be brought inline with this approach (I'm not opposed to that), there are probably not enough articles in it for it to be as useful. [[User:Ishbiliyya|Ishbiliyya]] ([[User talk:Ishbiliyya|talk]]) 17:06, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
* '''Delete all''' There are many basis to categorize critics of Islam but they all have problems. In the case of Jewish critics, the demographic group includes both religious and secular critics. The same is true for former Muslims, some who are critical from a religious perspective and others from a secular perspective. There are critics within Islam by sect, etc. I don't see the categories helpful to navigate the critics. We have articles on criticism of Islam and a category for the criticism. This seems sufficient. [[User:Jason from nyc|Jason from nyc]] ([[User talk:Jason from nyc|talk]]) 16:44, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
* '''Keep''': these are valid subdivisions of the category:Critics of Islam. Especially the Category:Former Muslim critics of Islam (which might require a rephrasing just for clarity, perhaps 'Former Muslims who criticise Islam'? Otherwise it suggests that these people criticised Islam back in the day when they were still Muslims themselves, but not necessarily after leaving Islam) has merit. Their lines of argument are often rather different from e.g. Christian critics of Islam, who often frame this debate in terms of 'Christian countries versus Islamic countries' and the need for immigration to from the latter to the former to stop and close the borders, whereas most ex-Muslims (many of whom are themselves migrants/refugees from Muslim-majority countries to (formerly) Christian-majority countries) regard this as unacceptable xenophobia, generalisations and a lack of humanitarianism. The kind of criticism you get from former members of a religion, who experienced it themselves, will always provide a different perspective than the criticism from outsiders. I think this is a useful distinction that Wikipedia should make. [[User:Nederlandse Leeuw|Nederlandse Leeuw]] ([[User talk:Nederlandse Leeuw|talk]]) 07:27, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
* '''Comment''' - I think the keep !votes of Ishbiliyya and Nederlandse Leeuw highlight the different reasons why individuals or movements might be critics of Islam, whether it for dogmatic, social, economic, cultural reasons etc. However at the same time I cannot support the keeping of these categories, namely because for many individuals their religious/spiritual/ideological positions are often private and/or do not neatly fit into one category, for example a former Muslim could be secular/irreligious such as [[Afshin Ellian]] or [[Ayaan Hirsi Ali]], or could belong to another religion such as [[Nabeel Qureshi (author)]] or [[Ali Sina (activist)]]. In these articles it would take two seperate categories to describe the same thing that one category did adequately. Also I am a bit hesitant over the "X critics of Y", as if for example the fact that an indidual is Hindu/Buddhist/Christian/Sikh etc. inavertly make it seem that their criticism is more/less valid than an irreligious/atheist/agnostic/secular individual? Lastley Islam like all religions and ideologies is far from homogeneous, there are a variety of movements and denominations within Islam, some of which are critics of each other. For example [[Ulil Abshar Abdalla]] often criticizes conservatic Muslim stances in Indonesia, and many conservative Muslims criticize him, so are they [[:Category:Muslim critics of Islam]]? I just see a can of worms being opened here that will lead to edit wars, sorry for the block of text [[User:Inter&anthro|Inter&anthro]] ([[User talk:Inter&anthro|talk]]) 02:44, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
**'''Delete''' - after reviewing some of the articles in these categories, I have come to the conclusion that deletion and merging into the previous category is the best option. The principle reason is that these categories encourage speculation and [[WP:OR]], for example what reason is there to label [[Kristian Thulesen Dahl]], [[Tim Ablitt]], [[Tommy Robinson (activist)]], etc. as "secular" critics. Nederlandse Leeuw's above !vote that religious criticism of Islam always has a cultural or dogmatic foundation and secular criticism of Islam always has a rational or scientific foundation is a hasty generalization which is often incorrect: [[Geert Wilders]], [[Nyamko Sabuni]], [[Miloš Zeman]] are all irreligious and their noted opposition to Islam has more to do with culture and ethnicity rather than science. [[User:Inter&anthro|Inter&anthro]] ([[User talk:Inter&anthro|talk]]) 15:51, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
* '''Merge''' to [[:Category:Critics of Islam]], this type of categorization easily becomes too subjective. Many critics in this tree are Europeans and Americans and it is often unclear whether they should be classified as Christian or secular. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 22:04, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
* '''Keep all''' - I find the arguments in favor of keeping these categories far more persuasive than those favoring deletion.
**Regarding [[:Category:Former Muslim critics of Islam]], the solution is very simple: ''Hyphenation''. '''Rename to [[:Category:Former-Muslim critics of Islam]]. [[User:Anomalous+0|Anomalous+0]] ([[User talk:Anomalous+0|talk]]) 09:39, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
*'''Keep all''' -- Most of these are well populated, so that merging them would create a category too large to aid navigation. I would [[:Category:Ex-Muslim critics of Islam]]. I suspect that Muslim critics of Islam (if we had such category) would be better dealt with in another way. [[User:Peterkingiron|Peterkingiron]] ([[User talk:Peterkingiron|talk]]) 17:03, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
*'''Delete all''' There are too many issues with defining religion, especially who is actually a "former Muslim" for these categories to work.[[User:Johnpacklambert|John Pack Lambert]] ([[User talk:Johnpacklambert|talk]]) 22:07, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
* '''Delete all without upmerge'''. Looking at a few articles, this seems to be a random gathering of any rant without any connection to actual [[criticism of Islam]] as a religion. [[Ralph Giordano|This one]] dislikes the building of a mosque in Cologne because he thinks Muslims don't integrate well (that's criticism of the integration of Muslims, not the religion); [[Frits Bolkestein|this European commissioner]] wrote a book called ''Islam & Democracy'' with a co-author called Mohammed, book of which nothing is said in the article and certainly not that it qualifies as "criticism" or "secular criticism"; [[Win Ko Ko Latt|this one]] is a leader of the nationalists and anti-Rohingya movement in Burma, but the article says nothing about his thoughts on religion. [[User:Place Clichy|Place Clichy]] ([[User talk:Place Clichy|talk]]) 19:07, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
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