Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 November 23: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 22:31, 23 November 2019

Revision as of 22:32, 23 November 2019

Line 16:

==== NEW NOMINATIONS ====

<!-- Please add the newest nominations below this line -->

==== Category:Austrian Empire military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars ====

:* '''Propose renaming''' [[:Category:Austrian Empire military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars]] to [[:Category:Habsburg Monarchy military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars]]

: The "Category:Austrian Empire military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars" has to be renamed, since the [[French Revolutionary Wars]] ended in 25 March 1802, while the [[Austrian Empire]] was created only in 1804. The proposed accurate description should be: "Category:Habsburg Monarchy military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars".([[User:KIENGIR|KIENGIR]] ([[User talk:KIENGIR|talk]]) 10:56, 8 September 2019 (UTC))

* '''Comment''', this seems to be a matter of overcategorization per [[WP:PERFCAT]]. For example [[Johann Peter Beaulieu]] was already fighting for Austria in the [[Seven Years' War]]. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 11:09, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

::[[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]], please have in mind that the term "Austria" might be ambigous and recently we are fixing these problems with proper wikilinks in the related pages, after and issue and discussion, however despite the unliked "Austria" will remain part of many articles as soon the context is set in the lead or the infobox. However, partuclarly regarding your comment, Beaulieu was fighting for then the Habsburg Monarchy (inside of it was the [[Archduchy of Austria]] btw. among many other countries), but not the [[Austrian Empire]] that did not exist then. More accurately, what you refer was the [[Imperial_Army_(Holy_Roman_Empire)#Operations_of_the_Habsburg_Imperial_Army|Imperial Army]] of the Habsburgs, not solely anytime Austria, not even the members or commaders were just Austrian.([[User:KIENGIR|KIENGIR]] ([[User talk:KIENGIR|talk]]) 11:41, 8 September 2019 (UTC))

::* That is a bit beside the point I was trying to make. We should have a category for the Imperial Army and a category for the Austrian Empire, but diffusion by war leads to biographies being in a multitude of those categories. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 11:54, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

:::*[[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]], I understood your original point as well, even if I did not react to it. Yes, your suggestion for the Imperial Army until 1804 and for the Austrian Empire after 1804 looks fine.([[User:KIENGIR|KIENGIR]] ([[User talk:KIENGIR|talk]]) 13:00, 8 September 2019 (UTC))

::::* So '''rename''' to [[:Category:Imperial Army]]. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 15:21, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

:::::*[[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]], You meant like "Category:Habsburg Imperial Army military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars"? In case please proceed with the renaming if everyone agrees, I never did that by a category, I do not wish to commit any technical mistake...Thank You.([[User:KIENGIR|KIENGIR]] ([[User talk:KIENGIR|talk]]) 15:31, 8 September 2019 (UTC))

::::::* I meant to refrain from referring to French Revolutionary Wars. Besides I suppose that "Habsburg" is redundant since Imperial Army already implies the relation with the Habsburg Monarchy. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 15:39, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

:::::::*Understood, I can support also this version.([[User:KIENGIR|KIENGIR]] ([[User talk:KIENGIR|talk]]) 15:49, 8 September 2019 (UTC))

*'''Rename''' I suspect the object is to cover the period 1790 (or 1792) to 1815. The category is well populated so that it should be Kept somehow. I would suggest [[:Category:Austro-Hungarian military leaders 1790-1815]]. The period of the Revolutionary War may be an artefact of British history, as Austria was not at war with France for the whole period. Siblings may also need attention: the British sibling has one general in it, but there must be lots more. [[User:Peterkingiron|Peterkingiron]] ([[User talk:Peterkingiron|talk]]) 12:53, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

*:[[User:Peterkingiron|Peterkingiron]], thank's for the support for renaming, but there are problems with the details you presented. This particular category is valid only until 1804 (because that year the [[Austrian Empire]] was created. The suggestion of "Austro-Hungarian military leaders 1790-1815" would cause a bigger problem, since Austro-Hungarian refers to [[Austria-Hungary]] that emerged only in 1867, on the other hand in the [[Imperial_Army_(Holy_Roman_Empire)#Operations_of_the_Habsburg_Imperial_Army|Imperial Army]] not just Austrian, Hungarian, but generals with other nationality were present. Hence, still my original proposal seems the best "Category:Habsburg Monarchy military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars" or at least "Category:Habsburg Imperial Army military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars".([[User:KIENGIR|KIENGIR]] ([[User talk:KIENGIR|talk]]) 13:00, 8 September 2019 (UTC))

:::Yes this is complicated, as is the whole notion of the Holy Roman Empire. Yes there were officers from other German states serving in the army, certainly in Turkish wars; and not as mere mercenaries. Perhaps [[:Category:Hapsburg Imperial military leaders 1790-1815]] would fit. This avoids a hiatus at 1801 (end of Revolutionary War) or 1804 (when HRE was replaced by Austrian Empire). There was a long period of war from the Revolution until Waterloo and the Congress of Vienna. The ruler throughout had the title of emperor, though the title changed. I think the 1867 transition was more about how Hungary was governed and the creation of a German Empire. [[User:Peterkingiron|Peterkingiron]] ([[User talk:Peterkingiron|talk]]) 11:37, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

::::[[User:Peterkingiron|Peterkingiron]], I'add that HRE was not necessarily replaced by AE, we could only say a partial "transformation" along 1804-1806, better to say the HM's and HRE's overlapping titles, territories and assumed dominions etc. had been "clarified" in a way regarding the transformation. However, your point is as well seems fine. Let us now summarize the proposals until now, and maybe together with [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] you could eliminate at least two versions of the four proposals, thus soon we may propose our final candidate (and excuse me that I present your proposal with 'b' instead of 'p'):

::::(1) Category:Habsburg Monarchy military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars

::::(2) Category:Habsburg Imperial Army military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars

::::(3) Category:Imperial Army

::::(4) Category:Habsburg Imperial military leaders 1790-1815([[User:KIENGIR|KIENGIR]] ([[User talk:KIENGIR|talk]]) 18:01, 13 September 2019 (UTC))

:::::To Marco's point, we should also consider what to do with [[:Category:Military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars by nationality]]. [[User:Laurel Lodged|Laurel Lodged]] ([[User talk:Laurel Lodged|talk]]) 08:27, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

::::::We should rename it as well (replace "nationality" with something else, since Habsburg Monarchy was not a country, not a nation, etc., what would be the best English word, ''affiliation''?)([[User:KIENGIR|KIENGIR]] ([[User talk:KIENGIR|talk]]) 19:10, 14 September 2019 (UTC))

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"><span style="color: #FF6600;">'''{{resize|91%|[[Wikipedia:Deletion process#Relisting discussions|Relisted]] to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}'''</span><br />

<small>Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, [[User:MER-C|MER-C]] 08:51, 20 September 2019 (UTC)</small><!-- from Template:Relist --></div><!-- Please add new comments below this line -->

*'''Relisting commment:''' rename to what? [[User:MER-C|MER-C]] 08:51, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

* '''Rename per nom''' The [[Habsburg Monarchy]] article covers the years 1282 to 1918, from the reign of [[Albert I of Germany]] to the deposition of [[Charles I of Austria]]. [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 10:11, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' -- Part of the point of my suggestion was to apply the period 1790-1815 (or perhaps 1792-) to avoid the question of whether this ended in c.1802 or 1815. I am making no further comment on which of the options for the first part is best. [[User:Peterkingiron|Peterkingiron]] ([[User talk:Peterkingiron|talk]]) 17:20, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

::[[User:MER-C|MER-C]], to your question:

::'''1st task''', rename Category:Austrian Empire military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars to one of the following:

::(1) Category:Habsburg Monarchy military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars

::(2) Category:Habsburg Imperial Army military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars

::(3) Category:Imperial Army

::(4) Category:Habsburg Imperial military leaders 1790-1815

::'''2nd task''':

::rename [[:Category:Military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars by nationality]] to <nowiki>[[:Category:Military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars by ''affiliation''?]]</nowiki>([[User:KIENGIR|KIENGIR]] ([[User talk:KIENGIR|talk]]) 18:20, 26 September 2019 (UTC))

:::Since the whole thread is silent for a while, I make my final proposals that should be accepted if noone objects:

:::*1st - chosen 2 - rename ''Category:Austrian Empire military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars'' -> ''Category:Habsburg Imperial Army military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars''

:::*2nd, rename ''Category:Military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars by nationality'' -> ''Category:Military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars by affiliation''([[User:KIENGIR|KIENGIR]] ([[User talk:KIENGIR|talk]]) 18:44, 12 October 2019 (UTC))

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"><span style="color: #FF6600;">'''{{resize|91%|[[Wikipedia:Deletion process#Relisting discussions|Relisted]] to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}'''</span><br />

<small>Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, <span style="background:Black;padding:1px 5px">[[User:Buidhe|<b style="color: White">b</b>]][[User talk:Buidhe|<b style="color: White">uidh</b>]][[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|<b style="color: White">e</b>]]</span> 22:32, 23 November 2019 (UTC)</small><!-- from Template:Relist --></div><!-- Please add new comments below this line -->

==== Category:Spaceflight portal ====

:* '''Propose deleting''' {{lc|Spaceflight portal}}<br />