- Political cult (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - (View log)
POV essay reflective more of Dennis King's personal views than anything else. General Idea 10:21, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- Remove content, and rewrite There is a case for a sociological examination of this phenomenon but sadly I can't see anything in this article worth salvaging. One possibility is to get some more sociologically-inclined people in, hit the textbooks and make it a proper article with NPOV assertions with a wide range of sources. I now wish that I had passed first year sociology so that I could more directly assist with this. Orderinchaos78 12:09, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Remove content, and rewrite I'd be glad to help out with the rewrite of this article. .V. (talk) 14:25, 13 January 2007 (UTC)- Keep Upon further consideration, I find that the article is in fact well-sourced (or at least sourced enough). Perhaps it needs a bit of editing, but it certainly should be kept. .V. (talk) 16:32, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
The initial suggestion to delete the article is phrased in the same language used by BabyDweezil (a follower of political cult leader Fred Newman who vehemently opposes the inclusion of the Newman group in the list of purported cults in final paragraph of article) on the Discussion Page. The entire paragraph listing purported political cults is properly cited. Any essay by me is on the discussion page, not the article. Most of the article was written by other people although I did add or rephrase stuff to correct what I regarded as misleading impressions. As a recognized expert on political cults, I believe that there is no basis for deleting this article, but for vastly improving it. Much of it is properly cited and citations can be found for the scattering of sentences that are not cited. The attack on all writers and scholars in the field as allegedly being former communists turned anti-communists was put in by BabyDweezil to create chaos and can be easily deleted by anyone (if BabyDweezil keeps restoring it, demand arbitration). Again, there is no real basis for deleting the article and I urge readers of this post to go to the "Fred Newman" biography on Wiki and see the totalitarian and demented games that this group is playing on Wikipedia, often using sock puppets.--Dking 15:05, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- The phrase "Political cult" is an invention of former Marxists who now oppose their own former groups and involvements. It is not a concept accepted or used outside the "anti-cult" field other than via occassional tabloid coverage of the subject. This is a simple fact, and relevant to any entry on "Political Cults." If Dking has evidence of sock puppetry he should present it instead of attacking those who disagree with him with false charges and his incessant cult-baiting of fellow editors. When I corrected his misleading claim that a book was "praised", King deleted the entire section. When the Marxist Leninist backgrounds of all the authors he cites are noted by me in the article (which seems emininently relevant background on authors who are charging various Marxist groups—in some cases their own former groups--with being "political cults"), King deletes the properly referenced section, claiming in the edit summary "Deleted ad hominen attack by follower of Fred Newman." It's annoying enough that Dennis King continued to use Wikipedia to attempt to publish personal essays, such as this entry and International Workers Party that he cannot find a legitimate publisher for. Yet in addition, he is using personal attacks, cult baiting, charges of sock puppetry, against anyone who challenges this. Very silly. BabyDweezil 16:36, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- I wish to correct the idea that opposition to political cults is a manifestation of a grudge against former M-L groups that some cult experts were once involved in. First, I was never in a political cult. The PLP, which I left over 30 years ago, has never been accused of cultism by any ex-member to my knowledge nor will one find complaints about it that are much more than criticism of what ex-members or opponents regard as extremely dogmatic politics or the typical Marxist top-down leadership. This is a group that banned Maoist style criticism/self-criticism in the late 1960s and encouraged its members to spend their time with friends, family and co-workers OUTSIDE the party rather than hanging around with each other (that's still its "line" today). As to Janja Lalich, she and most of the leadership and membership of the DWP rose up and expelled their leader (an unstable alcoholic) and voluntarily disbanded the party--who is she supposed to have a grudge against, her fellow rebels? As to Alex Stein, I believe from reading her book that her experiences inside the "O" gave her valuable insights into the nature of cults that she could not have attained in any other way; her former membership in the O speaks to her credibility, not to any prejudice. The same could be said of Tim Wohlforth. I am not aware that the group Prof. Tourish was in was a cult (most Marxist groups are not cults although they tend to elicit high commitment from their members). As to the dean of political cult watchers, Chip Berlet, he was never a member of any communist party or pre-party formation to my knowledge.--Dking 19:23, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- Comment Please keep any discussion here relevant to the AfD. As far as I can tell, the article needs more sources but is otherwise acceptable. The sentences that are marked with a fact tag seem like they could be sourced very quickly (as this idea is certainly not new.) I see no particular POV here; this is an idea that has been in existence for a long time. I see there's an edit war of sorts going on here, but there's no need to start slinging around accusations. .V. (talk) 19:22, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
- Keep, thoroughly cited. It doesn't matter who made up the term, they made it up a long time ago and lots of people are using it now. Passes WP:N and WP:V. If there's a WP:NPOV problem, that is not an argument for deletion, per WP:AFD: "The argument "non-neutral point of view" (violates WP:NPOV) is often used, but often such articles can be salvaged, so this is not a very strong reason for deletion either." So if there's problems with the article, fix those problems, but there's no grounds for deletion. — coelacan talk — 05:10, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletions. -- SkierRMH 05:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)