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Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aquarium Fishes

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by MidgleyDJ (talk | contribs) at 05:41, 9 March 2007 (→Combine goldfish breed articles?: added redirect.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Latest comment: 18 years ago by MidgleyDJ in topic Combine goldfish breed articles?

Welcome to the Aquarium Fishes WikiProject

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Please feel free to post any question, suggestion, or comment. If you'd like to help the project, please sign up at the members section in the main page. --Melanochromis 23:22, 13 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

Flickr pictures

Latest comment: 18 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion

Flickr has many wonderful pictures of aquarium fishes and some of those are under creative common licenses. So is there probably a possibility of using them in wikipedia? Has anyone ever used Flickr?

Anyway here are some really good pictures under creative common licenses:

All of these gorgeous pictures have some kinds of creative common license. I really hope we can use them somehow. Can someone give advice how to do this appropriately? --Melanochromis 12:26, 14 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

It might be better to approach the owners of these pics and ask if they can be donated to the Wikimedia Commons. After all, Flickr accounts can fall into disuse (including accounts whose creators are deceased) and so a permanent collection of pictures based in the Commons is probably the way to go. I'm planning on uploading some of my own aquarium photographs from the past 12 years to accompany various articles (including ones I've performed major recent revisions on, that happen to be focused upon species that have occupied my aquarium in that period) and photographs I've taken elsewhere when touring various public aquaria etc. Since these photos will be my own work, and I've no qualms about donating them free and gratis, I'll probably licence them on the basis of them being freely distributable. Calilasseia 22:34, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

You are probably right. Maybe I'll join Flickr and see if I could persuade some to upload their pics to wikicommon. --Melanochromis 11:30, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

Hi, I'm StubbsUK, please feel free to use my image http://www.flickr.com/photos/stubbsuk/134108495/. Contact me via Flickr if you require a larger version. StubbsUK 23 Dec '06

Thanks StubbsUK. I think your picture is a juvenile Red Sea sailfin tang. I just sent you a Flickr mail how to upload the picture. Cheers, --Melanochromis 10:47, 24 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
Please don't use any rainbowfish pictures unless the fish is verified not to be a hybrid. Many of the pictures in places like these and out on the web are hybridized rainbowfish. Roan Art 03:38, 7 March 2007 (UTC)Reply

The project focus (moved from Melanochromis user talk page)

Latest comment: 18 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Thanks for starting up this project. Long overdue. I'm happy to help. I'd suggest worrying less about trying to be a "how-to" guide (there are lots of those on the web) but focus instead on the background facts. For example, different types of filters and filter media (pros/cons); add aquarium statistics to descriptions of important fish; create or expand articles for aquarium-specific concepts, such as fish-less cycling, filter bacteria, spawning triggers, etc.

There need to be articles about the fishkeeping industry. For example, which countries are most involved as exporters and breeders of fish, which countries buy a lot of ornamental fish, and what the different trends are (e.g., where are marine reefs popular, or arowana, or goldfish?). The value of the industry should be described in terms of money and jobs, and also the conservation issues, fish breeding/farming, release of exotic species into the wild, and questions of ethics (e.g., feeder fish).

We also need our own "stub" with a suitable graphic!

Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 10:10, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

I agree with you. I think I got a bit caught up when writing the project draft. I wanted to keep it short but once I started writing, I just couldn't stop. Feel free to edit or modify the project page though. I trust you. Originally I was hesitating whether to name it wikiproject fishkeeping or wikiproject aquarium fishes, but I chose aquarium fishes to make it in line with other project names (cat breeds, dog breeds, instead of cat keeping, dog keeping). But fishkeeping should still be our main focus anyway.
Like you said I think most fishkeeping-related articles are very much underdeveloped (except a few like marine aquarium). Yesterday I was browsing articles and stubs in the Category:Fishkeeping and realized that we need to come up with a way to do this. The fishkeeping article should probably be the first focus and it can be branched out, many of its sections can be expanded into full articles. At the present (15 December 2006), this article doesn't talk about the science of fishkeeping (water chemicals, filtration, lighting, tank set-up, etc.). Do you want to start with that?
About the fishkeeping industry, the article does have this section but it doesn't cover that much. Maybe we can expand it and/or split it up to a seperate article.
Anyway, I'm putting this fishkeeping article as our project "collaboration" and we'll develop it the way you suggested. And I'm moving our discussion to the project talk page so that other people can see and might be interested to help. Cheers, --Melanochromis 11:07, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Reply
I'll create the stub template for fishkeeeping articles then --Melanochromis 11:11, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

Fishkeeping stub

Latest comment: 18 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

I created two versions. Which one do you like more?

the fish portal
the fish quiz
wp fishes  • talk  • to do
wp aquarium fishes  • talk  • to do
wp sharks  • talk  • to do
wp fishing  • talk  • to do
aquarium newsletter

tuna and some species of sharks are warm-blooded, and able to raise their body temperature significantly above that of the ambient water surrounding them. credits to Neale for the second picture --Melanochromis 11:28, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

The second version is chosen to be the fishkeeping stub. The template name is {{fishkeeping-stub}}
--Melanochromis 08:56, 12 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

Nice, though not proposed at the usual venue, and a little on the small side, according to the stub guidelines. I found a couple more, would there be by any chance another half-dozen of these articles rattling around that you could tag as such? Alai 01:56, 13 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

Article Format

Latest comment: 18 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Some of my major recent revisions should give other collaborators some ideas about how to proceed with the task of upgrading the stubs. I've adopted a similar format for my revisions, but of course there's scope for expansion. Other contributors are invited to take a peek and post some suggestsions here with respect to such matters as additional subheadings, additional links etc. Calilasseia 22:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

Great jobs, Calilasseia!! The lemon tetra and the rummy nosed tetra articles are such a big improvement from the previous stubs. --Melanochromis 11:30, 16 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

Wikipedia Day Awards

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 17:32, 30 December 2006 (UTC)Reply

"Aquarium box" for fish articles

Latest comment: 18 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Hi all. I noticed that the fish articles in several other non-English wikipedias have boxes for aquarium care. This is like taxobox but it includes important aquarium data like temperature, pH, water hardness, size of fish, level of difficulty in breeding, tank size, etc. In my opinion, this box looks really neat, easy to read, saves some space, and reduces the awkward repetitive information in each fish article. Do you think we can create and apply it to our aquarium fish articles somehow? To give you ideas, here're some examples:

I like the Swedish version the best. What do you guys think? --Melanochromis 04:48, 13 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

This is a great idea. A large number of fish articles pertaining to aquarium fish seem to have information such as this (copied from another website, maybe), and condensing them down to an aquarium box would be nice. I think a mix between Swedish and French would be nice. The Swedish seems just a little too short, but on the other hand the French one is pretty long. Temp, pH, and hardness are all numerical things that can be condensed down, and will usually only pertain to fishkeeping, thus making them good for this sort of thing. Other things such as sexual dimorphism is unnecessary for the box, since they can be usually more easily discussed in the article without fear of stretching out the box. It's nice that the French box puts how difficult the fish is, but I am not sure if that is necessary; if a fish is difficult, it is likely it will be said why the fish is difficult in the article already, so labeling the fish as easy or difficult may be less useful. Natural range where the fish comes from is something that does not need to be covered in the fishkeeping box; it can be discussed in the article itself or included in the taxobox. But yeah, I think it's a good idea to have something like this to get a quick look at a fish's requirements. MiltonT 05:39, 28 February 2007 (UTC)Reply
I agree, an aquarium care box would be useful. I think the Swedish box is the most concise. It would save time too when new articles are being written.--Terrapin83 03:09, 9 March 2007 (UTC)Reply

Nano reef article has been nominated for deletion

Latest comment: 18 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Can some project members drop by and weigh in on the WP:AFD issue, and possibly help? The primary complaint is lack of good references. Thanks! Mmoyer 18:35, 14 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for letting us know, Mmoyer. I'm putting this and the link to the vote page in the January newsletter that appears on each member talk page. --Melanochromis 19:21, 14 January 2007 (UTC)Reply
Looks to me like it should probably be merged - unless there is a compelling reason why small tanks cannot be covered in the main article? Thoughts? MidgleyDJ 03:13, 7 February 2007 (UTC)Reply

"Breed box" for goldfish breeds

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I think it's time for the goldfish breed articles to get their "breed boxes". The taxoboxes aren't supposed to be used for animal breeds (see WikiProject Tree of Life guideline here). Dog breeds, cat breeds, and horse breeds are all using their own breed boxes instead of taxoboxes. And there are goldfish societies out there (e.g. Bristol Aquarists' Society) that set standards for each breed. But I'm not really an expert on goldfish and not sure where to start. Does anyone want to do this breed box? --Melanochromis 16:03, 16 January 2007 (UTC)Reply

Unreferenced, unexplained edits by an editor who will never discuss changes

Latest comment: 18 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

I am again running into problems with a user who makes repeat, almost mechanical, reversions or changes (see all the various accounts below - all belonging to the same user). This user will not discuss changes and will not use edit summaries. On one occasion he/she was banned for violations of the WP:3RR and discussed the matter with an administrator - so the user is able to use english adequately. Most recently, this user has been active at Lepidiolamprologus where the user continuously adds an unreferenced addition of an "undescribed" species to the species listing.

This user has been variously active in Cichlid (where they continuously altered the number of species to 1900, 2000, 2200 - even 2500!), Maylandia, Altolamprologus and a few other pages. The great shame here is this user seems genuinely knowledgable regarding matters aquaristic - and, in my opinion, would be a asset to this project if they could be persuaded to work in a collaborative fashion. Thoughts on how to resolve this situation would be most welcome.

Most recent activity using:

Other accounts/IPs of the same user:

Anyway - this is probably the best place to list and discuss this problem, as the user seems most active on various aquarium pages. MidgleyDJ 20:33, 9 February 2007 (UTC)Reply

Lepidiolamprologus has been reverted again by this user. I've removed their edits again and requested, again - that they discuss the change prior to making it. I'm not sure what more I can do? MidgleyDJ 03:29, 10 February 2007 (UTC)Reply
It's hard dealing with this user. I knew how stubborn he was with the cichlid article. He ignored our consensus and would't communicate whatsoever. What we can do is getting a neutral admin to semi-protect the disputed article. This will prevent any anonymous IP to edit articles. If he really want to contribute, he will have to register and hopefully that will get him to talk to us. --Melanochromis 22:39, 10 February 2007 (UTC)Reply

Combine goldfish breed articles?

Latest comment: 18 years ago6 comments4 people in discussion

Okay, I'll admit I'm no expert on goldfish breeds, but the large number of goldfish breed articles bothers me a little. Care requirements for many of these fish also overlap. A good number of them are stub articles alone. This seems to indicate that some of these breeds don't have enough information to be good articles. I'm not saying that a single article discussing goldfish breeds will be enough, but it seems that we have too many. For example, the Telescope breeds could all be combined; for these specific breeds, the fish are almost exactly the same except for coloration, which I am not sure is enough to grant a breed its own article. The same may be with the Comet and the Shubunkin. Also, I'm not sure of the difference between a Crown Pearlscale and a Pearlscale, so someone who knows more about goldfish can investigate. Just my 2 cents. MiltonT 05:26, 28 February 2007 (UTC)Reply

Hi there. I think some of the breeds do need to be grouped up. The more popular or more standard breeds are probably fine as articles. But other breeds/sub-breeds probably don't need seperate articles.
--Melanochromis 21:44, 3 March 2007 (UTC)Reply
I agree with Melanochromis' method that some articles are unnecessary, but I think it really should go on a case by case basis as to what should have its own article and what should just be combined. For example, the crown pearlscale and pearlscale is a good example of two that should just be "Pearlscale", but on the other hand telescope eye and black moor should be separate even though black moor is technically a type of telescope eye. It's simply so popular and old a breed that it deserves its own article. So maybe this is something that should be taken on article by article.--Terrapin83 02:59, 9 March 2007 (UTC)Reply
I somewhat disagree about the moor issue. Even though we can say that it has been in the hobby for a long time, this makes very little of its own information to warrant itself its own article. The differences, if any, seemingly could be summarized in a paragraph, unless there is a sort of "history of the Black Moor" that one could write about to reflect this main difference in that specific color morph. Calico fantail is just a color variety of fantail, and we can agree on this. On the other hand, the black moor is also a color morph (if not the most popular color morph) of the telescope eye goldfish. Two articles would probably be redundant, and one should just redirect to the other. If nothing much new or specific can be said about the black moor that would significantly differentiate its article from the telescope eye goldfish article, than they can simply both be addressed together in the same article. MiltonT 05:33, 9 March 2007 (UTC)Reply
Given the recommended article length is 32KB why not make a single breeds of goldfish article. Certainly most breeds dont (beyond stub class, as described previously) have enough information to warrant a full length article and I agree with previous comments re: repetition. One article would, in my opinion, solve the issue. MidgleyDJ 05:36, 9 March 2007 (UTC)Reply
all extant articles on goldfish breeds could then redirect to this page. Thoughts? MidgleyDJ 05:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)Reply

Website references

Latest comment: 18 years ago6 comments4 people in discussion

Previously commercial or general hobbyist websites were usually deleted, while a few websites with good species database like Planet Catfish and Loach Onlines were typically spared. But now it seems like they all have equal chances of being removed from the articles. So, I think there are things we should really establish:

  • What are the criteria to judge whether a website is referenceable (academic, extensiveness of database, usefulness to readers, etc.)?
  • How do we use these websites? As references, external links, etc?
  • Do we have a list of acceptable websites? Actually we already have a good list here, but do you want to reconsider websites in this list?

--Melanochromis 22:21, 3 March 2007 (UTC)Reply

I'm not in favour of using hobbyist websites as references. In my opinion, the kind of information that can be obtained from most hobbyist websites is also available in print and I'd feel more comfortable about using print references for the "in the aquarium" sections. Allowing some "good" hobbyists websites is problematic in that it opens the door for the inclusion of many, many, many other hobbyist websites. To give you an example uisng two good websites. I am perfectly comfortable using Dr. Michael Olivers www.malawicichlids.com as a source of information. It's primarily an academic site. In contrast I'm opposed to using Dr. George Reclos's www.malawicichlidhomepage.com as it is primarily a hobbyist website. Both are good sites - but I'd only use the former as a reference. MidgleyDJ 03:47, 7 March 2007 (UTC)Reply
I have to disagree with the above in some respects, since most of the information on rainbowfish that is in print is wrong. IMO reputable web sites (or forums) that cater to specific types of fishes are gold mines of information that you will not find on generalist sites. These are the people that actually keep the fish in aquaria and are the ones who really know what they are doing. That means that some or all of the information isn't listed in some handy-dandy database -- you have to dig for it. Some of the other sites that DO have databases or easy to find information on these types of fish have the *wrong* information. So, do you list a site with easy to find and possibly wrong information, or a site that someone may have to post a question but get the right information? Dat der's the question, I think. I'd think it a shame if my Bowheads! was removed because 75% of the information on rainbowfish out there on the web is wrong. We see it all the time in the forums. Roan Art 03:49, 7 March 2007 (UTC)Reply
... and I'd argue that the "correct" information you are saying is on your (and other(s) ) website comes from some primary source. If not, it's original research that should not be published in Wikipedia - see WP:OR. MidgleyDJ 03:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)Reply
I agree that academic sources are best, but if hobbyist/commercial websites are deleted then the user who deletes them should replace it with an academic source. Also, how many academic papers are written on care/feeding/etc of fish species? Maybe hobbyist journals and books would be good sources for this.--Terrapin83 03:04, 9 March 2007 (UTC)Reply
Hobbyist websites are quite different to printed material produced for the hobby. Printed material, while it may be wrong, can at least be verified. My concern also is that allowing one (two, three or more) hobbyist websites is problematic (as I've discussed above). We (aquarists) need to be aware that what the fish eats in the wild is MUCH more important than which brand of flakes it enjoys in someone's tank in north-west Queensland. I completely support this project -- and it's important to note that certain species are popular with aquarists -- but we need to remember the articles primarily concern the fishes biology, geography etc. MidgleyDJ 05:17, 9 March 2007 (UTC)Reply
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