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Talk:David Irving

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 209.29.46.2 (talk) at 16:18, 2 April 2005 (Irving was not discredited as a historian in the defamation suit). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
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Wanted to put my two cents in

I have noticed the bias against Mr Irving because I myself am a bit biased in favor of Mr Irving's, mainly because of the outstanding accusations (not proven nor disproven convincingly) of the ADL and Nizkor (both of which are political and religious and have close ties in relations and monies to parties opposed to Mr Irving) and therefore should be taken with a grain of salt. I think the current article is vastly improved on the early October version, kudos to Mr. Ortolan88 and others in the spectacular additions and refinement. guest

Article is anti-Irving

This article is quite anti-Irving. Please neutralize it. Taw 14:15 Mar 4, 2003 (UTC)

That is quite hard since Irving is most of all anti-himself. A self-destructive man if there ever was one.--GeneralPatton 05:13, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Irving is a man with known connections to European fascists and neo-Nazis. He is the leading Nazi apologist active today. His fallacies were proven in court. Let's not try to make him out as a confused student who got into a debate that was over his head. Danny 00:48 Feb 17, 2003 (UTC)

Dan, did you delete about two hours of my research into the subject just to piss me off, or to Bait me into a conflict? Or both? Ill credit you with the verisimilitude to do the reasonable thing and chop the article up into little bits if you like instead of outright reverting it with the wave of your majestic hand. Im not clear that you bothered to read it. Respectfully -Stevert ( the "Apologist" )

Oh, I read it. And I stand by my revert. Danny

I do not agree with the revert. The previous revision should be edited, not reverted. --Eloquence 04:56 Feb 17, 2003 (UTC)

While the recent version had numerous dubious, apologetic, and naive remarks, "Irving could be seen as ..." etc, a good deal of what was there was useful as raw material to be edited. I have some material to add, notably the scene in court when Irving referred to the judge as "Mein Führer", and some assistance in sorting out the fact that Irving brought the suit and was found not to have been harmed because what Deborah Lipstadt had said was true. There's no question that some of the article was argumentative and not NPOV, but it was there to be edited in the usual Wikipedia fashion, not simply deleted. Much of what was deleted would have been in any article on this interesting, controversial, and now discredited historian. I will be glad to work on a reverted version, provided there is no edit war and no name-calling. Ortolan88 05:23 Feb 17, 2003 (UTC)

Is it allright if I call you a "damn sturdy Wikipedian"? -Stevert

I would be more than fine if you worked on it, Ortolan. Danny

And due to my ties to the Neo-nazi Filipino hemp mafia, I will forever recuse myself from ever touching the subject ever, ever, again. -Stevert

Nizkor has a fairly good collection of info about Irving. --Eloquence 05:38 Feb 17, 2003 (UTC)

Um ... er ... okay, give me a bit of time, a day maybe, to look over some research. Let's leave the stub for the moment. I hope others will contribute as well, including the people signing in to this talk page. Ortolan88

Details of recent edit. Removed several references to Irving's income, desire to earn money, etc. added bibliography, this guy was a real hard worker, added a bit about the prestige he had, particularly the acceptance of his Dresden figures (need to move dresden casualty information from talk page to that article). Proceeding slowly, story of his books needs to be expanded, need much more about trial, Irving conducting his own defense, need to examine previous versions of article to make sure I haven't missed anything, working mostly from secondary sources. I do think this is a fascinating story and hope I am keeping it NPOV and on the up and up. Ortolan88 04:04 Feb 18, 2003 (UTC)

This article falls short of NPOV. Funny that one of the editors of this article should be making snide remarks about Irving's 'supposed' scholarship when that same author clearly doesn't apply those same high standards of scholarship to themselves.

Obviously, this article is the product of partisans with pre-existing agendas, including perhaps Judaic activism, as is evident from the privileging of Jewish experiences under the Nazi regime over experiences of other abused groups like the Gypsies. Irving is chastised for refusing to consent to the belief that a Jewish soul is metaphysically more valuable than a non-Jewish soul, and thus the reason for his ostracism. Irving shall remain unforgiven for not adopting a Judeocentric perspective in the Goering biography (is it possible that Goering had a life and career beyond the scope of the simplistic dualism of the propaganda of the victors? Such a question is unaskable), for his refusal to cave in to slithering scholarly conformity in general.There is no room for partisanship in a respectable encyclopedia, even considering the improbability of objective judgement of an era so close to the presentday. Yet removing the distemper'd moralism wouldn't mean endorsing his scholarship.

The two previous paragraphs were made by users using two different IP numbers several months apart, so not necissarily the same person (although the seem quite similar in content). Just thought I'd mention that in case someone thought it was all part of the same message. Saul Taylor 22:17, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)

NPOV

Anonymous user 65.146.0.29 seems to have been subtly trying to make a point by associating Norman Finkelstein and The Holocaust Industry with Holocaust revisionism. This is a dishonest and wholly inadmissible addition which must be immediately reverted --as I just did. Sir Paul 01:40, Jun 24, 2004 (UTC)

Well, for the sake of NPOV, as hard as it is maintaining this when writing about crimes like Holocaust, it has to be included, since Irving in his paranoia presents the “Holocaust Industry” as going “after him”. Just as this bit on Deborah Lipstadt that was taken out of the article about her should be put back. "Sir John Keegan sums up the view of WW2 historians conserning her with the remark that she is boring, self-righteous, politically correct and that no serious historian will be interested in anything she writes." --GeneralPatton 05:08, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

However, its not fair to group Finkelstein with the likes of Irving. --GeneralPatton 05:53, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

A self confessed "mild fascist"

from ADL website

When asked at the time by The Daily Mail about his political beliefs, he replied, "[Y]ou can call me a mild fascist if you like. I have just come back from [Francisco Franco's] Madrid...I returned through Germany and visited Hitler's eyrie at Berchtesgaden. I regard it as a shrine." --GeneralPatton 11:19, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thanks :-) It'd be ideal to track down the original Daily Mail reference, but that can wait I suppose. I've also made that page the ADL link in External links - to link to a document rather than a search - David Gerard 11:56, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
[1] on May 1, 1959 the Daily Mail reporter Clifford Luton quoted David Irving, then a student at London University, as saying, "You can call me a mild fascist if you like.". Of course, Irving is giving it his conspiracy spin, presenting it as another part of some grand conspiracy against his “work”, but the fact remains that he was quoted while still being a nobody and before any of his "work" was published. Its another typical manipulation of his. Distorting facts and ignoring common sense. --GeneralPatton 12:19, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

And there is also this page about Irving on ADL's website --GeneralPatton 12:37, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I would not hold in high regard the ADL's website in this entry, as it does have political agendas, is active in politics, and by nature has an inherent bias against those with opposing views. May I suggest a neutral source for information, or at least a counterpoint in Irving's own words (from his own publications)? The ADL is also known to change their site frequently due to the high number of offsite-linking of documents and photographs; link with caution. User:Anonymous 19:18 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Removed "Greedy"

Para 8, 2nd sentence: "The book tends to ignore Göring's role in the Holocaust and his greedy theft of art treasures."

removed greedy as it is an emotional & relative term. Furthermore, labelling it as greedy only sensationalizes it. It is not helpful --Duemellon 19:22, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Note about reversion

I've reverted Xed's latest edit -- he jumbled things around (introducing at least one grammatical error in the process) in what I can only assume was an attempt to make Irving look better. Among the additions Xed made was to allege (truthfully, for all I know) that the reporter who quoted Irving as saying he was a "mild fascist" was later arrested on pedophilia charges -- a sick example of ad hominem argument which it pains me to repeat. Also, numerous pro-Irving quotations were added, most of them without an accompanying date (which, I would suspect, would reveal that most of the positive press about Irving predates his increasing alignment with Holocaust denial). I'm open to having some nice quotes about Irving, as long as we balance them with other quotations revealing other POVs. Otherwise we're doing a whitewash job on a very controversial author that most historians seem to feel is beneath contempt. Just explaining my actions... Jwrosenzweig 20:36, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The remarks by John Keegan, a respected military historian, were probably contemporary with, or even after, the trial. Keegan was one of Irving's witnesses at the trial. I have no idea where he is coming from on this, but he has been, in his own way, pro-Irving. Many links in this Google search I'm not pro-Nazi at all, but an examination and expostion of Keegan's views on Irving could be appropriate. Ortolan88 02:04, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I hadn't realized Keegan's remark was so recent -- well, that would certainly be one to include. But I think we'd also need to include the view of at least one prominent historian who takes the opposing view, if not more -- after all, prevailing opinion among historians is very against Irving's conclusions, and I think we do NPOV a disservice to pretend either that Irving is a universalyl praised scholar or a deeply divisive writer who is supported by many and opposed by many. I think any fair recounting of the facts has to relate that, whether you think Irving accurate or not, he's mostly alone in the historical community (and I personally suspect he likes it that way). Jwrosenzweig 14:05, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Keegan was an Irving witness because after Keegan refused to testify on his behalf, Irving subpoena'd him anyway. On the stand Keegan said (to Irving) "I continue to think it perverse of you to propose that Hitler could not have known until as late as October 1943 what was going on to the Jewish people." and later stated that Irving's view "defies common sense" and "defies reason." [2] Here are some of Keegan's other views of Irving:[3]
In his _The Battle for History_ Keegan also wrote:
"Some controversies are entirely bogus, like David Irving's contention that Hitler's subordinates kept from him the facts of the Final Solution, the extermination of the Jews..." (p.10)
"No historian of the Second World War can afford to ignore Irving. His depiction of Hitler [in _Hitler's War_], by its relation of the war's development to the decisions and responses of Fu"hrer headquarters, is a key corrective to the Anglo-Saxon version, which relates the war's history solely in terms of Churchillian defiance and the growth of the Grand Alliance. Nevertheless, it is a flawed vision, for it is untouched by moral judgement. For Irving, the Second World War was a war like other other wars - naked struggle for national self-interrest - and Hitler, one war leaders among others. Yet, the Second World War must engage our moral sense. Its destructiveness, its disruption of legal and social order, were on a scale so disordinate that it cannot be viewed as a war among other wars; its opposition of ideologies, democratic versus totalitarian, none the less stark because democracy perforce allied itself with one form of totalitarianism in the struggle against another, invariably invests the war with moral content; above all, Hitler's institution of genocide demands a moral commitment." (pp.50-51.)
Jayjg 04:18, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Well, I, for one, think the previous two paragraphs here (Irving's challenge to conventional Anglo historians, first stated, then answered and rejected firmly by Keegan) and the business about Keegan as a witness and his remarks directed at Irving, all are worth having in the article. The "pedophile" business, no, but the article clearly shows that Irving was in his innermost being, profoundly silly and self-destructive, and a pro-Nazi. Inclusion of this material won't change that, but will illuminate aspects of Irving as a historian, however discredited. I don't think I'm being naive here. I see no reason to reject material that advances the article. And why not unlock the article? We've surmounted edit wars before here and gotten a pretty good article too. Ortolan88 05:22, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)


I agree that Keegan's views about Irving should be included in the article, both positive and negative. A quote with no context is not the way to do so. Would you like to work on something more balanced and informative, or would you prefer me to? Jayjg 14:15, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Here's a proposed paragraph about Keegan:

Irving's strongest, and perhaps only remaining supporter amongst historians is the respected British historian Sir John Keegan. During the trial Keegan stated "I continue to think it perverse of you to propose that Hitler could not have known until as late as October 1943 what was going on to the Jewish people." and later stated that Irving's view "defies common sense" and "defies reason." However, after the trial Keegan praised Irving for his understanding of Hitler's military strategy, and in an April 12, 2000 article in the Daily Telegraph stated that Irving had an "all-consuming knowledge of a vast body of material" and "many of the qualities of the most creative historians", that his skill as an archivist could not be contested, that he was "certainly never dull." [4]

Comments? Jayjg 21:07, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Dresden numbers

The article currently lists Irving's Dresden death numbers at "130,000 to more than 200,000". However, every source I have seen on this lists Irving's original statement about the lower bound as 135,000 , which differs from the current text, and also from Xed's persistent attempt to change the number to 35,000. See, for example, the text of Justice Gray's Lipstadt judgement [5] which points out that Irving specifically disbelieved the number 35,000, and insisted that it had been arrived at in this way: "According to Irving, Voigt told him that the estimate of 35,000 made by the Russians had been arrived at by striking off the first digit from the figure of 135,000." The judgement also shows that while at the trial Irving claimed that "estimates of casualties in Dresden have indeed ranged between 35,000 and 250,000", Irving himself has never made estimates that low. Instead, he has made many conflicting statements about the numbers in various editions of the book, other writings, and in public statement, all much higher than 35,000. More importantly, regarding the information in the paragraph itself, "in the 1966 edition of The Destruction of Dresden Irving contended that 135,000 were estimated authoritatively to have been killed and further contended that the documentation suggested a figure between 100,00[0] and 250,000" I recommend that the article be changed to reflect this, namely, that the book stated that 135,000 were estimated authoritatively, and that documentation suggested a figure between 100,000 and 250,000. Comments? Jayjg 18:09, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Irving states he believes a figure of 25,000 to be accurate in a letter to The Times (1966) - [6]:
Sir, -- Your newspaper has an enviable reputation for accuracy, and your readiness to correct the smallest errors from one day to the next is an inspiration to your readers; but how can a historian correct a mistake, when once he finds himself to have been wrong? I ask the indulgence of your columns.
The bombing of Dresden in 1945 has in recent years been adduced by some people as evidence that conventional bombing can be more devastating than nuclear attacks, and others have sought to draw false lessons from this. My own share of the blame for this is large: in my 1963 book The Destruction of Dresden I stated that estimates of the casualties in that city varied between 35,000 and over 200,000.
The higher figures did not seem absurd when the circumstances were taken into account. I had tried for three years to bring to light German documents relating to the damage, but the east German authorities were unable to assist me. Two years ago I procured from a private east German source what purported to be extracts from the Police President's report, quoting the final death-roll as "a quarter of a million"; the other statistics it contained were accurate, but it is now obvious that the death-roll statistic was falsified, probably in 1945.
The east German authorities (who had originally declined to provide me with the documents have now supplied to me a copy of the 11-page "final report" written by the area police chief about one month after the Dresden raids, and there is no doubt as to this document's authenticity. In short, the report shows that the Dresden casualties were on much the same scale as in the heaviest Hamburg raids in 1943. The document's author, the Höhere SS- und Polizeiführer Elbe, was responsible for civil defence measures in Dresden, it should be noted.
His figures are very much lower than those I quoted. The crucial passage reads:
"Casualties: by 10th March, 1945, 18,375 dead, 2,212 seriously injured, and 13,918 slightly injured had been registered, with 350,000 homeless and permanently evacuated." The total death-roll, "primarily women and children", was expected to reach 25,000; fewer than a hundred of the dead were servicemen. Of the dead recovered by then, 6,865 had been cremated in one of the city squares. A total of 35,000 people were listed as "missing".
The general authenticity of the report is established beyond doubt, because within a very few days of receiving the first, a second wartime German report was supplied to me, this time from a western source. It repeats exactly the figures listed in the above report, upon which it was evidently based.
The second report, a Berlin police summary of "Air Raids on Reich Territory", dated March 22, 1945, was found, quite by chance, misfiled among the 25,000 Reich Finance Ministry files currently being explored at the west German Federal Archives. It was forwarded to me by one of their archivists, Doctor Boberach.
I have no interest in promoting or perpetuating false legends, and I feel it is important that in this respect the record should be set straight.
I remain, Sir, your obedient servant, David Irving


Irving may indeed have stated that estimates were in a broader range, but those were not estimates he believed. Rather, he stated the figure of 135,000 as authoritative. Furthermore, on many subsequent occasions he himself stated the numbers were far higher, as follows:
  1. in the 1971 edition the figure for those killed was placed at more than 100,000;
  2. in 1989 when launching the 'Leuchter Report' in Britain Irving informed journalists present that between 100,000 and 250,000 were killed;
  3. in 1992 Irving told the Institute of Historical Review that 100,000 people were killed in twelve hours by the British and the Americans;
  4. in 1993 in a video made for the Australian public Irving contended that over 130,000 died;
  5. in the 1995 edition of The Destruction of Dresden the attack was estimated to have killed 50,000 and 100,000 inhabitants;
  6. in 1996 in Goebbels: The Mastermind of the Third Reich Irving noted that between 60,000 and 100,000 people has been killed in the raids on Dresden.
  7. in a speech in South Africa in 1986 Irving stated that 100,000 people were killed in one night in Dresden;
  8. in Ontario in 1991 he told and an audience that over 100,000 people were killed in one night in February 1945;
  9. in a television documentary screened on 28 November 1991 Irving said that 25,000 people may have been executed in Auschwitz but five times that number were killed in Dresden in one night, and
  10. at the launch of the 'Leuchter Report' to in 1989 Irving stated that there were 1,000,000 refugees in Dresden of whom "hundreds of thousands" were killed.
I note that all of these statements by Irving post-date that letter to The Times. In any event, the article itself deals with the original book, which stated the number 135,000 as "authoritative", and estimated much higher possibilities. Also, it would be helpful if you signed your edits. Jayjg 20:56, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
On his web site in 2004/02/13 he used the phrase "which burned alive over one hundred thousand people, mostly civilians". Mozzerati 21:39, 2005 Jan 22 (UTC)

OK, I propose changing the paragraph to this:

In the first edition of the book Irving's figures for deaths in Dresden, which he initially reported as estimated authoritatively at 135,000, and which he himself estimated at between 100,000 and 250,000, were an order of magnitude higher than anyone else's. Nonetheless, these figures became widely accepted and were repeated in many standard references and encyclopedias. Over the next three decades later editions of the book gradually modified that figure downwards to a range of 50,000-100,000, but during that time Irving also made a number of public statements indicating that 100,000 or more Germans had been killed. It was not until the hearing of Irving's libel suit against Deborah Lipstadt in 2000 that the figures were discredited. See the Dresden bombing article for more information on casualty figures, estimated at closer to 40,000.

Comments? Jayjg 20:41, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Among the holocaust deniers..

David Irving has questioned many aspects of the holocaust, rightly or wrongly. Of late he's never "denied" it and i believe it sounds non NPOV to call him a denier, when he does not explicitly deny the holocaust happened.

Please read the article on Holocaust denial to understand what the term means. Jayjg 04:26, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"far-right" and "extreme right-wing"

These phrases are used to describe Irving's contacts in a couple of places in the article. They appear vague at best, POV at worst; which groups or people are they referring to? Jayjg 03:16, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Irving gave lectures to the Deutsche Volksunion in 1982; the West German Office for the Protection of the Constitution categorised the DVU as "right wing extremist", saying in a 1985 report that, despite Irving's insistence that the DVU is/was (not sure if it still exists) a "longstanding democratic party", they "hatred against foreigners, anti-Semitism, playing down [the crimes] of the National Socialist terror regime and disparagement of democratic institutions". (from the ADL). [[User:DO'Neil|DO'Иeil]] 04:41, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)
That's in the 80s. The article claims he was working with the "far-right" and "extreme right-wing" in the 60s in Spain and Germany; who were these people? Jayjg 04:54, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The early years of Irving’s radical activism are not as documented as his later hears as he was not that well know then, however ever since his college days his pro fascist feelings have been known. This also has to do with the fact that the deniers were not as organized or as open about it as they are now.GeneralPatton 22:07, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
If you have a claim in there that cannot be verified, it will undoubtedly be challenged. Perhaps it is best to leave it out. Jayjg 22:11, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Well, it is verifiable that he got acquainted with many far right and former Nazi leaders. GeneralPatton 22:15, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps you should be more explicit about that, then. Jayjg 22:40, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
This is misleading. Irving is a historian of WWII who has discovered countless new documents through interviewing survivors-- of course he would "get acquainted with" eyewitnesses and historical figures of the war, including prominent Nazis . NapoleonicStudent 04:22, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

the real blame for his forced suicide lay with his associates

"lay with his associates"; whose associates, Hitler's or Rommel's? Jayjg 21:28, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

  • Rommel's, Irving quite viciously attacked Rommel's chief of staff General Hans Speidel and his other associates, all of whom were passionate anti-Nazis and achieved high rank in post-war Germany. This is why I referred to “Hitler and his cronies” (which they were) as in opposed to Rommel and his associates. GeneralPatton 21:41, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
"Cronies" is POV. Please see the question in the section above this one as well; specifically, who were the far-right groups that Irving associated with in Spain? Jayjg 22:05, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
For the first issue, how about "clique"? And for the seccond issue, well, Its generally believed that while he was a fascist sympathizer in the UK, he acquired firsthand contacts with German Nazi sympathizers during his days in the Ruhr steel mills, that’s probably why he went there in the first place. As I’ve said they were not as organized back then, but it helped him open the doors for his later works. GeneralPatton 22:12, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)


The article as of September 30, 2004

I’d say that we have a pretty complete article by now, only the “persona non grata” section needs some work and still some various details could be inserted about his books. From just about 600 words three months ago, the article has almost 3000 words now. GeneralPatton 18:14, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Images

Here are two more images that I have uploaded but didn't quite make it into the current revision of the article, the first one is from the same event as the one with the gun so i didn't want to be repetitive and the second one makes him look too nice. GeneralPatton 04:15, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

File:Irving book01.jpg
File:Irving archive01.jpg

Picture caption

Why is "Irving, seen here holding a submachine gun in a bookstore, the 1990s, . Its owner, the son of a freedom fighter in the Hungarian Revolution of 1956 who had taken it from a soldier he had killed." a better picture caption? It's a paragraph, not a caption, and it's all about the history of the machine gun in the picture. This is an article about Irving, not the stuff he is holding in various pictures. Are we going to put in long captions describing the pen and books he is holding in various other captions? Jayjg 04:05, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The caption is badly garbled too, but basically the picture is a distraction. Irving wasn't a soldier, did not participate in the Hungarian rebellion, doesn't own the submachine gun, did not shoot up the bookstore, etc. One of the other pictures above would be better if we need another picture at all. Is the point to make Irving not "look too nice"? Really, I repeat, that particular picture illuminates nothing about Irving and takes away from the article by introducing a confusing image. Ortolan88 04:13, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
To be honest, I don't think the article needs the picture at all, it has enough pictures of him already, at various ages. Each section really only needs one picture IMHO, and the second one with him carrying the books and files is quite relevant to the section, which is maily about the trial. However, I think General Patton, who provided these pictures and captions, should weigh in as well. Jayjg 04:19, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Tired of waiting, removed the picture (see over there):
File:Irving gun01.jpg
Irving, seen here holding a submachine gun in a bookstore, the 1990s . The gun is a souvenir of a freedom fighter in the Hungarian Revolution of 1956 who had taken it from a Soviet soldier he had killed.
I repeat,
Irving wasn't a soldier, did not participate in the Hungarian rebellion, doesn't own the submachine gun, did not shoot up the bookstore, etc.
The only reason I can think of to put in the picture is to make Irving look bad. I think he looks bad enough as it is, this picture is nothing but "piling on" (term from American football meaning landing on a ball carrier after he's already down). This is a happenstance image that illustrates nothing about Irving, and, in fact, distracts from the article. If you disagree, let's discuss here rather than simply restoring the picture. Ortolan88 20:15, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I thought it looked cool, but then I like guns and such. As far as what makes him look "bad" (are we talking michael jackson bad... or michael jackson molesting kids "bad".. or what?) who cares. Their all fair pictures to me, none have been altered to give him a halo or horns, etc..., so why worry? The article certainly has no excess of pics, IMO. Sam [Spade] 20:49, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In what way is it relevant to the article? What does it add? If a picture isn't relevant, even one picture is an excess of pictures. Ortolan88 23:17, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Irving wrote a book, Uprising, about the 1956 Hungarian, um, uprising. I am assuming that someone in Hungary read his book, liked it, and presented him with this gun as thanks.NapoleonicStudent 04:26, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Neo-Nazi

Is "neo-Nazi" a correct designation for Irving? -Willmcw 17:44, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I don't think he's been designated as such in the article, has he? It says he associate with Neo-Nazi groups, which is true. Jayjg | (Talk) 18:40, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
He is in the "Neo-nazis" category. I understand that he associates with neo-nazis, is a holocaust denier, etc. But I'm not sure that anyone calls him a "neo-nazi". Or maybe they do. Unless someone pipes up with a reference for Irving being labelled a "neo-nazi" I'll pull that categorization. -Willmcw 18:50, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I don't think you can 100% state he is a Neo-Nazi; openly associating with neo-Nazi groups, and making speeches at their rallies, isn't quite enough in my view. You could put him in the Holocaust denier, or anti-Semite categories, if they existed, since the legal ruling against him specificially stated that. Jayjg | (Talk) 20:06, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I've come across a reference to Irving being a big supporter of neo-nazis in Germany, which is close enough, I suppose, to leave the categorization. But it would be better if the text matched the category - if he is categorized as a neo-nazi then ideally that label should be in the text as well. Not a big deal. -Willmcw 20:16, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Removed "freedom of expression" irony?

I'm new to Wikipedia and I wondered what criteria you use for removing edits to articles? I added the line, "This was especially ironinic as it was Irving who was challenging Lipstadt's freedom of expression" to the section about his libel trial.

This seems like a perfectly reasonable inference, yet it was removed within minutes. Does anybody know why?

It wasn't removed from what I can tell. Jayjg (talk) 16:02, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Sorry - there must be a caching problem with my browser.

Irving was not discredited as a historian in the defamation suit

I find this article highly biased, particularly as regards Irving's reputation within the historical field. As Judge Gray in his defamation case said in his ruling:

"As a military historian, Irving has much to commend him. For his works of military history Irving has undertaken thorough and painstaking research into the archives.... It was plain from the way in which he conducted his case and dealt with a sustained and penetrating cross-examination that his knowledge of World War Two is unparalleled. His mastery of the detail of the historical documents is remarkable. He is beyond question able and intelligent. He was invariably quick to spot the significance of documents which he had not previously seen. Moreover, he writes his military history in a clear and vivid style. I accept the favorable assessment by Professor Watt and Sir John Keegan of the caliber of Irving's military history".

An endorsement from Keegan is hardly to be taken lightly.

The judge did not discredit Irving, he remains widely respected in the field. For instance, a campaign to have his biographies removed from the library at West Point (among other military colleges) was pointedly rejected.

The ruling of the trial simply denied that Lipstadt's allegations constituted slander; that's all.

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