Talk:Java (software platform)
The article's quality is appalling! sentences and language use are pretty bad. This will need some work! Npovmachine 16:03, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I felt it necessary to significantly modify the Language section of this page to address perceived bias and better reflect the more thorough Java programming language article. In addition, I may have inadvertantly inserted my own bias by promulgating the "less-pure" meme. Please feel free to do what you will.
--gortsack 20:47, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
- You edits were on target, you just didn't go far enough. :-) I worked on it some more, but it was pretty poorly worded compared to the Java programming language article that most of this content was taken from. —Doug Bell talk•contrib 18:58, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
problems!
I disagree very strongly with the following statement made in the article:
Standalone applications have fallen out of favor as computing has switched to a Web-based model. New programming techniques have produced powerful Web applications....
The advent of portable drives, knoppix, etc. contradicts the preceding statement. The demand for small, self-contained, and portable binaries is higher than ever. Take for example, utorrent.
(The following paragraph contradicts itself, and my own personal experience is that 1.5 and 5.0 apps don't get along with just one JRE, so I purposefully avoid all Java to preclude 500Mb of JRE ;) )
...Because of incompatibilities between different versions of the JRE, rather than rely on pre-installed JREs, many applications install their own JREs in order to function predictably. Java applets can detect which version of Java they are running on and the high level of compatibility between different versions of Java ensures it is a simple matter to support older versions of Java whilst making use of the additional features of later versions.
- I've found a high level of compatibility between Java versions, to the extent that the same byte code runs on all versions. See Clesh for one example (needs broadband). Also, services like Google mail and in fact Google itself have become more popular and these are web based applications. Stephen B Streater 22:01, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
why isnt OOo being mentioned as a good example for a nice java-desktop app?
- because it isn't one, its a C++ app that happens to use a tiny bit of java for its scripting functionaility. Plugwash 23:14, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I have suffered from the JRE incompatibility problems referred to above, but not being an expert in Java, I've added cleanup tags to two sections, and added fact tags to some statements. In fact some compatibilty claims in the article are directly counter to my experiences but I guess that would be OR. -Wikianon 11:04, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I do not understand what is meant by the Criticism section when it states that Java necessarily uses "a user's IP address to allow Java to function." I've used Java for years, and don't know what this means. There is a bug opened on Java 1.5.0 through 1.5.9 (I believe) where calling some network functions tried doing a reverse DNS lookup on the remote IP address, but this was a bug that has been since fixed, not a feature of the langauage. There are plenty of valid critiques of Java, I just don't think this is one of them (factually). If not clarified, this section should be removed. Dov Wasserman 19:19, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- I put a [citation needed] after the sentence, and I agree that it seems to be original research (and maybe false). I propose to delete the entire Criticism section (it contains only this sentence) if nobody is able to cite sources in a few days. Plus, even if there are sources, I think the sentence should be : clarified + put in the general Criticism of Java article. The sentence says exactly the contrary as a LOT of sources always say : Java is generally a secure language. Hervegirod 21:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
don't merge
we tried having the top level java article and the programming language as one article and it was frankly a mess with the "java as a whole" people constantly fighting over what the article should contain with the "java programming language" people.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Plugwash (talk • contribs) 23:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC).
I agree, so I'm removing the merge tags. Someone can always readd the merge and include reasons that might gain consensus in the two Talk pages. -Wikianon 11:22, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Version history
I think that this article is too long. Why not split the "Version History" part in another article, to link with this one, or at least keep only the beginning of the chapter in this article, and put the detailed J2SE 1.0 to 7.0 to the new article ? Hervegirod 09:33, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- No answer, I took it as a yes Hervegirod 11:44, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
GPL
is there actually any official sun download marked up as GPL yet, if not then imo we are jumping the gun saying that java has been made GPL. Plugwash 00:54, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
- ok i just took a look at https://openjdk.dev.java.net/ and it seems that the vm and the compiler are already gpl but the class libraries (which are arguablly the most valuable part of java to have under a free software license) are not going to be until early 2007. Plugwash 00:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
- javac and hotspot are GPL now, and they really are valuable pieces of software (think of the speed of Sun's vm compared to other free vms, for example). Hervegirod 12:02, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
- javac is very low value. The java language to java bytecode conversion isn't that complex and there are perfectly acceptable free compilers out there. Hotspot is more valuable but i'd imagine it has a fairly strong dependency on suns class libraries which are still non-free. If and when we see a buildable JRE made up of opensource software then that WILL be a very significant moment but what we have been given so far is practically worthless on its own. Plugwash 23:12, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
- javac and hotspot are GPL now, and they really are valuable pieces of software (think of the speed of Sun's vm compared to other free vms, for example). Hervegirod 12:02, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Licensing
There really shouldn't be a "past and present" division about free software licensing of Sun's JRE or class library because it still isn't free, and according to Sun it won't be free until at least March. Even if/when Sun Java becomes free, the before and after sections would probably not be useful for such a small set of information. Also, in the english language, saying "Java wasn't free software" (past tense) can imply that it has changed from non-free to free, which wouldn't be accurate. If it wasn't free software, and it still isn't, then you would use a current tense, or if you must refer to the past, "has never been" would be clear.
The Licensing section also needed some major cleanups in a variety of ways. I've tried to make the section more concise and clear without removing anything important, but if I did remove something important, please re-add it, rather than reverting the entire edit. 64.59.144.21 02:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Desktop Use
Two of the claims are not fact-based and maybe not relevant ot the subject: Tools used to develop graphical Java applications are fragmented and none is as popular as Microsoft's Visual Studio suite for developing Windows applications; I never seen any comment about this on the web, especially to explain why Java is not widely used on the desktop. here are multiple versions of the JRE, which can introduce compatibility issues for Java applications installed on a system: this is the same with ANY other language / platform, as C#, Python, Perl, even Flash, and as Java is (for the most part) upward compatible, especially at the binary-level, I think it is not a problem ; also, I never seen this explained as a specific weakness of Java which could reduce its desktop adoption (except on Wikipedia..). THe most seen claims on the net are Java memory usage, Java mostly don't follow platform GUI guidelines, extra-step to deploy Java-based apps (even if it is the same with a lot of other frameworks), and Java being non-free in the past. Hervegirod 12:34, 27 May 2007 (UTC)