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Wikipedia talk:Featured article criteria

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Fair-use audio excerpts in FACs and FARCs

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The debates here and here may be of interest in relation to the interpretation and enforcement of Criterion 3. Tony 00:07, 14 April 2007 (UTC)Reply

Proposal- Accessibility and Importance need to be prominent leads to a FA.

Latest comment: 18 years ago7 comments4 people in discussion

I think the FA 1 − 2 + 3 − 4 + · · · is an example of an article that needed a bit more work before it is promoted to FA status. I think that one of the missing pieces here would be accessibility. I know this will be a technical article, but as a FA, I think this needs to say in the intro why it is important and, if it can't say what it is in a brief summary, then at least tell what you need to know to understand it. I think that Wikipedia:Make technical articles accessible should be something that is included in any part of the FA review.

I have no problem with a Mathamatics article being a FA. I think they are at least as worthy as a Bulbasaur. I would like to suggest that the importance of the topic be asserted in the intro so that someone going there from the Main Page would see first the summary of what it is and then the summary of why it matters.

I have seen several articles which I think miss out on making the importance of the subject and the accessibility of the article prominent features of the FA review. Any comments? Slavlin 20:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)Reply

  • You are assuming that the topic is important, which perhaps is not the case. I think the introduction makes clear the things that are interesting about the topic, specifically that it has a bit of history behind it, and that it is an example of paradoxical and unintuitive mathematics. On the whole I would say that the article is at a good level of accessibility; with only an awareness of infinite series, you can basically fully grasp the lead, and even without that background the first few headings of the article ought to make some sense. Christopher Parham (talk) 21:33, 16 April 2007 (UTC)Reply
If a topic is not important in some way, why do we have a Wikipedia article about it? This article is confusing to me and I minored in Physics, going as far as multivariable calc and linear algebra, but it is still difficult to understand why anyone would care about the topic. The same is true of many articles, in my opinion. That is why I would like to see this as something that is considered in the FA criteria. I think this is definately a good article, but I still think that it needs to be more accessible to have it as the "this is what Wikipedia is about" which the FA represents. Slavlin 14:47, 17 April 2007 (UTC)Reply
FAs should not have to be accessible to everyone, or useful, or vitally "important", whatever that means. These might be valid points in deciding which ones to feature on the main page, but that's not decided here. Personally, I found this article interesting, and learnt quite a bit from it. Of course there are others I don't care about. I guess part of the art of choosing the main page FAs is to provide enough diversity among the topics that most readers will occasionally find something of interest. -- Avenue 22:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)Reply
A topic doesn't have to be important to warrant a Wikipedia article, at least under our current policies. Christopher Parham (talk) 02:24, 18 April 2007 (UTC)Reply
I have apparently used the wrong words. Where I said Important, what I meant is notable. I still think that articles need to be accessible to the general user. But that can be something as simple as the summary at the top. What I am suggesting is that the accessibility and notability of the topic be demonstrated in the intro as part of the FA criteria. Is there any reason you can suggest not to have this as a criteria other than "don't wannna"? Slavlin 19:48, 18 April 2007 (UTC)Reply

I wrote the article, and I've been paying attention to what people say about it throughout both Wikipedia and the rest of the Internet, so I hope my perspective here will help.

First of all, the series is notable simply by virtue of the fact that it gets nontrivial coverage in multiple reliable sources, such as Hardy, Saichev, and Weidlich. It helps that one of these is a respected primary source, namely Euler. It also helps that the series gets a ton of passing mentions. You may judge that the series does not deserve its notability, but then you're making a judgement on how human inquiry should be done and not how Wikipedia should report on it.

Even though I think that article topics don't need to be important (in the more-than-notable sense), I have stuff to say about that too. If you have a physics background with linear algebra, you've probably seen Fourier series. This means that there's an excellent chance that you've seen Abel summation without realizing it; see the reference to Davis at the end of the article for how. Abel and Borel summation are essential to modern physics, which deals with divergent series all the time, and I for one think that examples like 1 − 2 + 3 − 4 + · · · are essential to understanding such methods.

There are at least two reasons why I wouldn't say so in the article:

  1. WP:NPOV. Who am I to tell you that you should read up on 1 − 2 + 3 − 4 + · · · to better understand modern mathematics and physics? I can't attribute that opinion to anyone you should care about.
  2. WP:NOR. 1 − 2 + 3 − 4 + · · · is an example of a divergent series. Examples are important for understanding general concepts. Divergent series have important practical applications. These statements are not controversial and could easily be attributed. That doesn't mean we can combine them to claim that 1 − 2 + 3 − 4 + · · · has practical applications, or that understanding it will lead to a better understanding of the way mathematics is used. Such derived statements would need specific evidence or at least an attribution, and we have neither. Here's another application of NOR: I have seen the series used several times as the prototypical example of a series that isn't Cesaro summable but is still easy to sum by any other method. Can I combine those observations to claim that the series is an important or widespread example? Can I claim that this role is why you should care about the series? Not so much.

On to accessibility. The closest the article comes to explaining what's "really going on" is in Stability and linearity: "A generalized definition of the 'sum' of a divergent series is called a summation method or summability method, which sums some subset of all possible series. There are many different methods (some of which are described below) which are characterized by the properties that they share with ordinary summation." This is just a couple of sentences. One could explain the situation a lot better by writing a whole section, but then you'd have to duplicate that section across every article dealing with divergent series. Duplication of information is bad for lots of reasons. Oh sure, you could make sure to mention the series by name within the explanation, and then do a find-and-replace for other articles, but that's cheating. It also opens doors you don't want to open: then we can have suspiciously similar articles on every divergent series under the sun.

We avoid duplication by placing information where it belongs, in this case in the article titled Divergent series. Perhaps the latter article doesn't explain the philosophy of divergent series very well either, but it already says a lot more than 1 − 2 + 3 − 4 + · · · should.

The upshot of my explanations for 1 − 2 + 3 − 4 + · · · is that we generally shouldn't add FA criteria that many articles won't be able to meet without stretching policy and damaging the encyclopedia as a whole. The current criteria encourage fundamental good practices that all articles should be able to implement without conflict. Melchoir 03:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)Reply

Well written -> professionally written

Latest comment: 18 years ago19 comments7 people in discussion

I think this wording change is extremely necessary. Not only does it underscore 1a, it also helps distinguish GA 1a from FA 1a (since I got complaints for adding "'reasonably' well written" during my GA criteria revision last week). — Deckiller 09:31, 19 April 2007 (UTC)Reply

I have the green light? — Deckiller 08:16, 23 April 2007 (UTC)Reply
Does that mean that "professional/ly" will appear twice? Once in the intro and once in 1a? Tony 09:22, 23 April 2007 (UTC)Reply
True, but at least there will be emphasis. — Deckiller 09:42, 23 April 2007 (UTC)Reply
"Professionally written" suggests that you must be a professional to write an FA, which is, of course, not required. I would be okay with saying that prose should be of a professional standard. —Celithemis 10:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)Reply
Rather than the repetition (which might irritate readers), why not remove "even brilliant"? Celithemis, many of us aspire to a professional standard of writing, in many walks of life. I think it's a reasonable epithet, given the fierce competition out there on the Internet. Can't aim for less. Tony 21:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)Reply
I have no problem at all with the phrase "professional standard"; it's a good expression of the standard that I think should apply to FACs. Professionally written means something different. —Celithemis 23:12, 23 April 2007 (UTC)Reply
—Celithemis's distinction is vital, and I would agree to that wording change, but not the other. –Outriggr § 22:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)Reply
So, "Well written means the prose is of a professional standard"? — Deckiller 23:21, 23 April 2007 (UTC)Reply
From your last comment, it seems you intend to remove "compelling" from the criteria, which did not seem to be the case when you started this discussion. Is that correct? Pagrashtak 23:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)Reply
Well, I'm trying to suggest anything to make well written clearly mean a professional standard. Several people have commented that "compelling" should stay; another idea of how to word it? — Deckiller 11:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC)Reply
That would leave "'Well written' means that the prose is compelling", which is not true. An article can be engaging without meeting the level of writing quality expected for a featured article. I would prefer "'Well written' means that the prose is compelling and of a professional standard", or something similar. 1(a) should cover both the "technical" (professional standard/brilliant) and "artistic" (compelling) aspects of good prose. Pagrashtak 14:30, 24 April 2007 (UTC)Reply
What is wrong with "even brilliant"? But I rather like "engaging" rather than "compelling".
How about "'Well written' means that the prose is engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard."? -- ALoan (Talk) 15:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC)Reply
Sounds good to me. Tony 02:38, 25 April 2007 (UTC)Reply
I'd prefer it if we could cut the "brilliant" out (since exceeding the standard, as "'even' brilliant" applies, is not necessary to mention on the rubric). — Deckiller 02:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)Reply
Agree with removing "even brilliant", would be fine with either engaging or compelling. Pagrashtak 04:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)Reply
The "even" makes it so that "brilliant" isn't really a requirement, so I'd like to keep it. It's a nice nod to our "brilliant prose" days, and it's not hurting anything. — Brian (talk) 04:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)Reply

Proposed criteria

Latest comment: 18 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion

All too often, even featured articles use technical terms to excess. Obviously, the basic terms of the field should be used, however, particularly in more general articles, they ought to be briefly explained at first use. As it is, all too often we get articles that think that a wikilink absolves them of all responsibility to write layman-accessible text. Many such articles require the reading of dozens of other articles just to get through a few paragraphs, and if they wikilink to each other, the reader is screwed.

A general rule might be "All terms not in general use should be explained at first occurrance, not just wikilinked, except where a technical term is substantially more basic and better known than the subject of the article itself." Adam Cuerden talk 13:18, 25 April 2007 (UTC)Reply

An article like that would violate Wikipedia:Technical terms and definitions, part of the Wikipedia:Manual of Style, and thus fail criterion 2. There's no need to add a specific criterion just for this. Pagrashtak 13:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC)Reply
Hmm. Point. It alright if I just make that explicit, since it's a particularly common failing in science articles? (See, for example, DNA or Big Bang, featured articles I put up for review for being unreadable in just that respect.) Adam Cuerden talk 14:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC)Reply
Take a look at {{Style}} and see how many different pages of stylistic guidelines we have. If we went down this road, criterion 2 would be excessively large. It's best to just say "It complies with the manual of style" and leave it at that. Pagrashtak 15:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC)Reply
Unsure why it should be different in this respect for FAs. This issue is the same for all WP articles. Tony 22:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC)Reply

Article length criteria

Latest comment: 18 years ago59 comments12 people in discussion

Is there a maximum to article length. I tried splitting an article I was working on into subarticles and then compressed the text in the main article but was reverted to take the 89kb article to 111kb. The reverter said they reverted to try and get the article to featured-article length. I thought that it was a bit too long for FA. I would like confirmation. Traing 07:47, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

This hasn't been officially set but it keeps coming up and needs discussing. The focus criterion (4) is meant to handle this. Marskell 08:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
We also need a minimum. Something isn't right about 15 KB articles becoming featured. — Deckiller 10:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
I agree. The slender ones make me feel very awkward when they pass. They rarely do justice to the requirement that FAs are "among WP's best work". But who's got a good idea as to how to frame such a guideline? Tony 11:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Perhaps 15-60 KB of prose? — Deckiller 11:06, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Yes! Something needs to be done. An FA with 3KB prose is outlandish. Deckiller, are you speaking of prose or readable prose? We can't measure by only prose size, because that counts references, so well-referenced articles are hit. 60KB of readable prose is too high; WP:LENGTH has long said that reader attention tops out around 50KB of readable prose. I'd recommend a range of 10 15–50KB of readable prose (calculated easiy with Dr pda's page size script). As to how to frame it, I believe that somewhere way back in this page history, it used to be suggested that GA was appropriate for the shorter articles. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:43, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Readable prose, obviously :) — Deckiller 11:53, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
I really hesitate to put down a specific number. Like all other featured criteria, any requirements should be qualitative and flexible to accommodate that truly outstanding 14.5KB article. It seems to me that 1(b) (comprehensive) is a fairly good minimum already. If there is a very short article that still meets 1(b), it might be an indication that the article should be merged with another. At that point, I believe one could object under criterion 4 (unnecessary detail). If neither of these quite fit, one could object that the article does not comply with Wikipedia:Summary style and thus fails 2 (Manual of Style). Pagrashtak 12:24, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Pagrashtak, this discussion arises precisely because that has failed in the past, because there was no specific guideline. We've had articles with 85KB of readable prose (!!!!!!) pass FAC (and above, you've got an example of one with 500 words — a fifth-graders term paper), without using Summary Style, and over Objections. Many of us have long discussed the need to review and consider formalizing the length issue. Of course, a guideline is still a guideline, and a truly exceptional short article could still pass based on IAR. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Pagrashtak, relying on "comprehensive" is clearly not working. At the moment, it's theoretically possible to break up an excellent article into its components to score a number FAs instead of just one. FAs need to be substantial, I think, to be showcases of WP's best work. There might be exceptions, so we need to think carefully of what they might be, and frame a new criterion around this. Something like "Nominations that are at the extremes of this recommended range, or that fall outside it, must demonstrate ...." Tony 13:12, 7 May 2007 (UTC) PS To keep this debate rolling, does anyone have examples of FAs that are outside the range and that are (1) acceptable, and (2) unacceptable? Tony 13:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Just so I understand, is the current situation not working because reviewers are not objecting when they should be due to lack of an explicit criterion to make the requirement obvious? Pagrashtak 14:24, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Different situations for long and short. On short, we can't object because we have no guideline that allows objection based on too short — the only criteria is comprehensive, and short articles can be comprehensive. On too long, many of us do object, and are shouted down or overridden. And, yes, often no one is checking. On too long, we can ask for better use of Summary Style or conforming to WP:LENGTH, but recently have been ignored. The question is whether we need to formalize either too long or too short, or both. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:45, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
I understand; I'm inclined to believe an additional criterion could be useful, then. I still recommend that numerical restrictions should be avoided, however. Pagrashtak 15:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Or, very carefully worded to allow for exceptions. What do you think of Tony's first suggestion? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:36, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Right now, I'm still opposed to using numbers to define this. We require articles to have references, complemented by inline citations. I think it's pretty safe to say that a FAC with only four inline citations would almost certainly not pass, but we still wouldn't want a "no fewer than five citations" requirement. That's not the best example, but I hope it illustrates my concept. None of our criteria are hammered down to a purely objective statement, and I want to keep them that way. Thought should have to be exercised at every step, even though that seems to be an increasingly rare resource (the commenters here an obvious exception, of course). Pagrashtak 17:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

I would oppose any such criterion for a minimum length (indeed, any criterion designed simply to exclude otherwise flawless articles). It's unfortunate, Tony, that you believe short articles do not display Wikipedia's best work, but it is not at all clear why that is true. My opposition would be tempered if you promise never again to oppose an article for redundant prose or other excess verbiage: if this criterion is added, there will indeed be a good reason for padding the word count at the expense of readability. Christopher Parham (talk) 16:55, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

Here's a list for perusal and discussion

To my knowledge, these are the only ultra-long FAs. Six out of 1382 = .4 % — I can't find the most recent list of ultra-long articles, but this is all that showed up last time I perused it.

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

Several could clearly make better use of Summary Style (e.g.; at least Schizophrenia, Byzantime Empire). Also note Dr pda doesn't pick up listy prose, so Sound film had to be calculated manually. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

I think B-Movie is a good threshold; anything longer is excessive. — Deckiller 13:35, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
I don't think we can generalize based on B movie, because Schizophrenia is shorter than B movie but VERY definitely not making appropriate use of Summary style. IMO, 50KB should trigger serious review. If we set the threshhold at the precedent established by B movie (wrongly, IMO, but everyone knows how I feel about that :-) we're going to have nothing to enforce. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Also, if your concern is B movie, Tony's proposed wording works, since it theoretically (even if I disagree :-) "demonstrated" something about its size by passing FAR. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:54, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
As a side note, WP:GA as originally envisioned by WorldTraveller was meant to recognize short articles of excellent quality that didn't have enough meat for FA. After a lengthy discussion between he and I, he actually created Wikipedia:Excellent short articles (note his first edit summary) with a cut-and-paste from GA. Alas, it's received 9 edits in a year. It could be revived to accomodate the low end of this debate (e.g., the coin article). Marskell 14:06, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
By whatever means, we need to get back to something that recognizes that a 500-word term paper shouldn't be an FA. I know we want *more* FAs, but that's not the way to highlight Wiki's best work. Heck, I wrote Intrusive thoughts in a couple of hours when a disastrous, incomplete, and inaccurate version came through LoCE; it's 17KB prose (2600 words), probably the best info on the net now on the topic, says everything there is to say on the topic, and I'd never consider it remotely FA-eligible. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Based on my own example, I switched my recommendation above to a lower limit of 15KB. Does anyone have examples of the shortest FAs ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:18, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

Found this list in archives — will come back and add Dr pda data:

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

Ouch. Diary of a Camper's plot section is way too short. It should be at least 3-4 paragraphs. — Deckiller 14:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Oh, never mind; it's a 100 second film clip... — Deckiller 14:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

Looking at this list above, I'm back to thinking 10KB prose should be a lower limit, because the Frog article is worthy. With all due respect to Titoxd and the Hurricane, Wiki isn't short on hurricane FAs. Austin Nichols and the Camper article don't convince me. Guess I should polish up Intrusive thoughts and sumbit it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

But wait. Before having a lower cut-off, we need to decide on a way to recognize these articles other than a regular FAC. We want to encourage polished post-stubs just like polished long articles. Wikipedia:Featured short articles. I suggested it to Raul a year ago and still think it's a good idea. Marskell 17:43, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Thoughts ?? GimmeBot, {{ArticleHistory}}, and a whole 'nother category to track. Gimmetrow will have ideas. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
In practice, I suspect it'll just mean that editors will try to fluff up their articles with extra text so that they pass over the cutoff to get into the "real" featured articles. While absurdly short articles may be unsuited as FAs for various reasons, we shouldn't start penalizing tightly written prose because of that. Kirill Lokshin 18:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

Out of curiosity, here is an article with a mere 13KB of prose; do people feel it's insufficiently long? Kirill Lokshin 18:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

Not if it is comprehensive. I don't see we have a need for a lower cut-off. No, a 500-word essay that you knocked off in an hour isn't likely to be FA-worthy, but, in my mind, a short article that collects every scrap of data that there is on a subject and combines it into an interesting read is more FA worthy than 50K on a "straightforward" subject regurgitated, with a hint of rewording, from a mass of freely available sources. Getting the scraps for a 2K article can mean a lot of work (for example, I'm finding it much harder to build comprehensive articles for three short subjects I'm working on now than for the four longer FAs I turned out last quarter) I expect we'd get a lot more people reading some FAs if there were a decent amount of short articles in the mix. I might look at Hurricane Irene (2005) if I had five minutes to spare rather than read five minutes worth of some 80K behemoth. If an article meets the criteria then it should be considered, and criteria 1.b and 4 cover very short articles in the same way they cover long articles. (On a side note, I think I'd personally stop participating in the FA process if there was a lower limit, we simply don't need 50K on everything and I don't look forward to the padding of what would otherwise be examples of "our very best work" to push them over an arbitrary limit). Yomanganitalk 19:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Yomangani has summed up how I feel rather well, and I second his opinion. If short articles are comprehensive in that they collect all the available info on the given topic, then I feel criterion 1. b. is satisfied. LuciferMorgan 21:23, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Thirded. 1974 aluminum cent is quite an extreme case, but I suspect that there really is nothing more to say (although, having seen it, I wonder if an article like Corinthian bronze would pass...) -- ALoan (Talk) 22:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
I've objected to the 1974 aluminum cent nom on the grounds of comprehensiveness (amongst other things). In practice there aren't many subjects that can be covered well in a very short article, but that doesn't mean there aren't any (and the coin can probably cover everything in 6K of prose rather than 3K). Yomanganitalk 02:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

Sounds like that's that :-) But ya'll didn't say how you feel about including an upper limit in the criteria. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

I don't think we should impose size limits, in part because it creates yet another hurdle for people to negotiate (and there's a strong sense out there that the FA process has become too hurdles-esque), and in part because articles should be as long as they need to be, which is a matter of editorial judgment. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:04, 8 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
I invite perusal of these 58 archived FACs from April to see if there are articles that should have had these "hurdles" lowered so they could be considered among Wiki's finest work. I can't see why these alleged "hurdles" are a bad thing, considering some of the quality that is now coming through FAC due to the backlog at GAC and PR. On the other hand, it's easy to point out articles that have passed FAC that should have had some "hurdles" put up by more consistent reviews, reviewers, and application of standards. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Good writing and researching shouldn't be about ticking a check list, and offering a list of FACs doesn't help, because it doesn't include the articles people haven't nominated because of the hurdles perception. I have two myself that I would otherwise have nominated by now, but the thought of being scolded for not using citation templates (or whatever hurdles would be focused on) makes me weary, so I haven't. High standards are good, so long as they're not petty. SlimVirgin (talk) 05:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
I think I read almost every FAC, and if any reviewer (incorrectly) requests cite templates (which rarely happens), they are quickly reminded they aren't required (and that many of us don't like them). Now, when editors are using them — and using them incorrectly — or when sources aren't formatted at all by any method, that's another story. Further, there is a checklist for FACs: 1a, 1b, 1c, 1d, 1e, 2 and so on. Someone has to check it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
I had the template thing happen to me, which is why I mentioned it, but there are other examples. Jerusalem lately had some objection or opposing comment based on MoS stuff. I forget the details, but it was something that had nothing to do with the quality of the piece. Anyway, the point is it would be good not to add anything else. Perhaps you could say "X is likely to be too short, and when you start heading toward Y, you better be sure that the content is all relevant," but without introducing actual limits. SlimVirgin (talk) 05:59, 8 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
But the template thing is clearly not valid, and Raul can ignore it. If we impose some limits, I agree the wording should be as you mention (and as Tony suggested); that is not hard and fast, but at least some mention that size matters (ahem). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
The MoS enforcement is probably justified under the current featured article criteria. I do think that it is pursued here with a vigilance that ignores the reality of the MoS, which is that 99% of editors ignore 99% of its advice 99% of the time. "Fixing" these issues, I find, tends not to improve the article in any discernible way, but at the same time it takes so little effort that you might as well do it. Christopher Parham (talk) 06:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
And if you don't do it, along come ten more FACs that say, "well so-and-so didn't, so I don't have to." WP:MOS (2) is not less of a criterion than any other, and FAs set an example for other editors. If FAs don't get the MOS right, why should we even have an MOS ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Good question. The MoS is widely ignored because it's edited by too many people and is unstable, so no one can be expected to know what's in it, and often what's there is wrong or idiosyncratic or impossible to understand. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:41, 8 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Perhaps the problem is that we consider the MoS as a block, when in reality it is a mixture: some important standards that have been produced with a great deal of input, and some not-so-important standards that are the product of a handful of editors who worked in peace mostly because nobody else cared. Distinguishing between the two is basically impossible without delving into the talk pages and histories. Christopher Parham (talk) 06:58, 8 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
I've not seen this phenomenon; do you have an example? The MOS problems I most often see at FAC are standard and stable MOS items, AFAIK. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:09, 8 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
The only problem I see with not having a fixed upper limit is it opens up the opportunity for claims along the lines of "the criteria don't explicitly forbid it, therefore objecting on size it isn't a valid objection, so unless you have another objection I demand my 800K of prose is passed". I don't think any of the super long articles got through without a hard time in that area though, did they? Yomanganitalk 02:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Only two (from the list of six above) were challenged at FAC: Campaign history of the Roman military, and Ketuanan Melayu (both by you-know-who :-) Others grew after FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:47, 8 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
I think the problem is less "hurdles" in general and more hurdles of the sort that are arbitrary rather than thoughtful. In my view, requiring articles to be comprehensive and to abide by Wikipedia:Summary style keeps them to an appropriate length without imposing one-size-fits-all numerical standards on a very diverse collection of articles. Certainly at the low end, to say that an article is comprehensive but at the same time needs more content makes little sense. Christopher Parham (talk) 05:57, 8 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Viewing it as a problem affecting less than half of one percent of FAs, maybe it doesn't make sense to impose another "hurdle" on a problem that isn't widespread. On the other hand, in the arguments here and continuing here, this editor claims that it's OK to riddle an article with extremely excessive inline citations (had as many as six per clause, now down to three or four) simply because there's no "rule" ("hurdle") which says he can't. We get exactly the same argument on article size. Of course, if more reviewers were actually "checking the list" (reviewing the criteria other than 1a), maybe less of these issues would be slipping through. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:09, 8 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

Well, the old 32k rule-of-thumb limit always seemed to me to produce articles of a nice, readable size, but it does often require a quart to be squeezed into a pint pot. Anything more than, say, twice as long as that is getting too long, IMHO, and probably ought to be broken down into daughter articles. The saffron / history of saffron / trade and usage of saffron series shows how it can be done. But I don't think we need a hard-and-fast limit. -- ALoan (Talk) 15:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

A good usage of Summary Style to break up a long article. Back to Tony's suggestion, "Nominations that are at the extremes of this recommended range, or that fall outside it, must demonstrate ...." ... How's this ?

4. It is of appropriate length, staying focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail. Nominations that fall outside the recommended prose size range are discouraged and must demonstrate appropriate usage of summary style. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:53, 13 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

This is for only those at the big end of the spectrum, not for the aluminium cent ones? I presume that the current wording of Criterion 4 is not strong enough to allow objections on the basis that summary style is not used in parts or the whole of the nomination. (It is of appropriate length, staying focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).) Perhaps reviewers haven't used this Criterion explicitly for this purpose. I'm wondering how nominators will "demonstrate appropriate usage of summary style" when challenged; they'll just say "It's all in summary style—go away", won't they? The onus will still be on us to say where and why it's not in summary style. So I'm unsure that the new version would change anything in practice. Tony 10:06, 13 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

Yes, seems like consensus is that the shorter ones are OK (if compehensive); can you suggest any wording that would discourage 70KB of prose? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:58, 13 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
  • I've looked at Wikipedia:Article size, which is all too vague. No matter how I try, I can't find a way of changing the criterion in a way that is practicable and acceptable to all. I don't see why citing Criterion 4 and the following armory of statements at WP:Summary style isn't enough to force the issue:
  • "information about a topic should not all be contained in a single article"
  • "generally 30KB of prose is the starting point where articles may be considered too long. Articles that go above this have a burden of proof that extra text is needed to efficiently cover its topic and that the extra reading time is justified".
  • "The top or survey article should have general summary information and the more detailed summaries of each subtopic should be in daughter articles and in articles on specific subjects."
  • "Articles larger than 30 KB (those that trigger page size warning) may be getting too long to efficiently cover their topic. This likelihood increases with larger size and it is very rare for an article 50% larger than this [45 KB] to still efficiently cover its topic."
  • "Wikipedia articles should heed these guidelines".

It's up to individual FA reviewers and their colleagues to form an opinion of where the limit lies beyond which they start to object; that might be better than cementing it in black-letter law (which might upset the 30/45 KB guideliners). Tony 13:47, 13 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

section break

I didn't know I would trigger such a long discussion...:)...I've been working on Sino-Indian War, where I summarized the 111kb article to 89kb by creating articles Origins of the Sino-Indian border dispute and Events leading to the Sino-Indian War while just keeping a summarized version on the actual page. I was reverted and User:Yuje explained that he did not support me because I supposedly "deleted huge sections of information that despite what he said, did not restore anywhere else" and said the he is "trying to improve it by extended it and giving the historical background leading up to the war, to make it a feature-length article". Which made me think whether there should be a limit to feature-length articles, particularly because the article hardly has any pictures and still takes time to load (depending on your browser speed). I believe the maximum for an article should be 70kb because we could allow them to go over the 64kb mark slightly. The minimum should be 15kb, some topics are simply not worthy to make it to the main page because there is not much information related to their topics. Those are my view's and could someone clarify to Yuje on Talk:Sino-Indian War because he seems to be of the view that I am deleting all this information without restoring them anywhere else. For example, he says "He editted the article in a completely POVed manner, editting out selectively, and he deleted huge sections of information that despite what he said, did not restore anywhere else". Traing 08:37, 8 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

Traing, it's helpful in discussions of article size to specify overall size, or readable prose. Also, you don't indicate if you used summary style to move the content to daughter articles. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:24, 8 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

Accepted reference styles

Latest comment: 18 years ago9 comments4 people in discussion

This matter was brought up in the recent (and successful) nomination of Conatus. This article, as I originally sourced it, used Harvard referencing, not the more typical ref/note method. I believed that this, while not the standard, would be acceptable in an FAC because of the endorsement of this method on various pages, including the "guideline" WP:CITE. According to this page, the three accepted methods of citing sources are: Embedded HTML links, Harvard referencing and Footnotes. In my experience, however, only the last is truly acceptable for a modern FA: during the Conatus's FAC, there was overwhelming support for a conversion to Footnotes style. I say that if FAs must realistically use Footnotes, the list of criteria should specify that; or if Harvard style is decidedly OK, that should be said directly. WP:CITE may be a good guideline (I don't know if it is) for most articles, but it is not a good guideline for FAs right now. -- Rmrfstar 23:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

Harvard is entirely acceptable. If an article employs Harvard style properly, objections on the basis of reference style are invalid. It is unfortunate that people are not aware these objections are invalid, and therefore sometimes do unnecessary work. Of course, whatever style you use should be implemented in an appropriate manner. I can't answer for whether this article used Harvard correctly when it was first nominated. Christopher Parham (talk) 00:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Unfortunately not everyone thinks so... if we find here that it is... we should say this explicitly in the FACR. -- Rmrfstar 01:26, 9 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
I don't believe embedded links are considered acceptable by any FAC regulars who care about reference style. It should be removed from our guidelines, if you ask me. Pagrashtak 00:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
FAC criteria already state that cite.php is preferred when footnotes are used. Embedded links are fine for other articles. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:57, 9 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Yea, well embedded links aren't fine for FACs, as Pagrashtak says. This should be said explicitly. -- Rmrfstar 01:26, 9 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
In my view if someone wants to use embedded links properly then that would be fine. The personal views of reviewers here shouldn't trump the community guideline. Embedded links are rather tedious to use properly, however, and are doubly annoying if you intend to use print sources. Christopher Parham (talk) 01:27, 9 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
ArticleHistory coughs up this version, which is hard to plough through with all those inlines. By the way, that article can't decide if hyphens or endashes are used on date ranges, and if endashes are or aren't surrounded by spaces. That kind of sloppiness shouldn't get through FAC. A read of WP:DASH might help. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:57, 9 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
That was the argument: Harvard style is annoying. I'll fix the issues with the dashes. -- Rmrfstar 01:26, 9 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

FAC and FAR/C urgents boxes

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
FACs needing feedback
view • edit


Featured article removal candidates
Beagle Review now
Meteorological history of Hurricane Ivan Review now
History of Poland (1945–1989) Review now
India Review now
Manchester Review now
Gol Transportes Aéreos Flight 1907 Review now
J. K. Rowling Review now
Anne Frank Review now

Will reviewers kindly note that these boxes are regularly updated for problematic nominations and for those that are hanging around for too long with too few comments. Transcluding them on your user page and/or at the top of your talk page would be a great way to generate more interest in these processes, especially by reviewers who manage to visit only occasionally.

All you do is to key in {{User:Deckiller/FAC urgents}} and {{User:Tony1/FAR urgents}}. Tony 02:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I've proposed a new version of the existing criteria to be implemented after a week or so of debate, if consensus can be achieved. Comments from reviewers from this room would be welcomed. Tony 02:27, 9 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

Focus / Proportion

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

In my opnion, Featured Articles should be structured with section sizes being appropriate to that which would actually interest readers. This may not make sense, so here's a hypothetical example:

Stairway to Heaven is an FAC. It meets all of the criteria, and is lengthy and well-structured. It includes information about the backwards lyrics. However, the largest sections are:

  • Recording: Explains, in detail, all of the instruments, tracks, and recording equipment used in making the song.
  • Exclusion from Guitar Hero: Provides rationale and reactions to the fact that the song is not included in either of the Guitar Hero games.
  • Concert Variations: Lists venues at which the song was played and any differences between those performances and the recorded version.

That would certainly be a comprehensive article. However, if the volume of non-notable and uninteresting material vastly outweighs the pertinent information, I would say the article is too unfocused or misproportioned to be an FA.

The problem with having focus as in the FA criteria is that it is subjective. An editor who really doesn't want an article to pass FAC could easily say "This article doesn't stay focused on the pertinent information." The easiest way to apply this objectively would be to ask "What would the average reader want to know about this topic?" Whatever the answer to that is should be the focus of the article.

This wouldn't necessarily have to be its own criterion, nor would it have to be strictly enforced. It could fall under well-written and would really only be actionable in extreme cases. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 23:00, 9 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

Layout

Latest comment: 18 years ago5 comments2 people in discussion

Two editors are editing WP:LAYOUT to state that Wiki "sister" links should be added to the lead rather than the See also or External links at the end of the article. I believe this will clutter the lead, resulting in ugly articles, and external content (even interwiki) belongs at the end. Other opinions ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

Just realized it's actually three editors, who have strikingly similar prose and syntax. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:28, 16 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Sometimes, sure -- the link at top right of United States Constitution isn't particularly ugly and makes a lot of sense -- but generally no. Christopher Parham (talk) 16:51, 16 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
I'm not crazy about that one either :-) Can you imagine if all the WikiSister links were added at the top of articles? Yuk. It's bad precedent. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Discussion taken to Wikipedia_talk:Guide_to_layout#InterWiki_links_never_be_External_links.. Christopher Parham (talk) 17:03, 16 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

Phase out Harvard style

Latest comment: 18 years ago11 comments7 people in discussion

I think the discussion above finished prematurely... May I re-word the criteria to recommend only footnotes for the sake of standardization and readability? -- Rmrfstar 17:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

No: some of our established FAs use it and they can't be frozen out of the criteria; it's acceptable academically and it isn't our business to reject it; some people genuinely hate footnotes. Marskell 17:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
If articles are going to be "opposed" because they use use Harvard style, it should not be recommended. -- Rmrfstar 17:52, 16 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Any such opposition is invalid, as stated above. We can hardly stop people from opposing on that basis (it is a wiki) but we ignore them when they do. Christopher Parham (talk) 18:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Are Wikipedia's policies suddenly prescriptive? Conatus's recenct FAC garnered no actual "oppose"s because of its initial Harvard style; but the fact that the consensus was that it was inferior to footnotes brought about its reformatting. I wish that something would be done to prevent this from occurring (again) to a user who has read the guidelines. The criterium in question may waste many more hours of time in the future if it is not made more specific and descriptive. -- Rmrfstar 21:24, 16 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
The criteria already point to WP:CITE for formatting guidance, and that page makes it very clear that Harvard style is acceptable. I'm not sure what more can be done in this regard. Christopher Parham (talk) 00:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

I think that it would be best to use a single consistent style of referencing, and the <ref> ones are certainly the most convenient for the reader. Atropos 07:53, 20 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

"certainly the most convenient" - by what measures? I am aware of a substantial number of people who prefer to use and read citations in the Harvard style. -- ALoan (Talk) 13:18, 21 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Good luck enforcing that consistency across the nearly 2 million en articles. There is a very good reason the guidelines allow inconsistency. We will not be changing that. Raul654 21:35, 21 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Good thing I was talking about the 1431 featured articles. Atropos 01:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
I have an MA in Econ. and am working on a PhD in Linguistics... and to the best of my recollection, all I've ever seen is Harvard... it's what the social sciences tend to use.. I think the Anthro. folks use the same... that's a whole lotta journals & a whole lotta Wikipedia editors... so... Ling.Nut 01:38, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

Image criteria

Latest comment: 18 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion

Hello. I've noticed that several featured articles use non-animated images stored in the GIF format. This is not recommended because images like these are often better represented in the PNG format. The PNG format is completely lossless, often compresses better, and supports full alpha-channel transparency. The templates {{BadGIF}} and {{ShouldBePNG}} exist to help us identify and resolve this problem by doing a fairly simple conversion from GIF to PNG. The PNG crusade bot can do this conversion with little human intervention.

Would it be OK if another criteria was added, requiring that GIF images be converted to PNG unless there is a good reason not to? —Remember the dot (talk) 23:58, 16 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

This is a triviality. I do not see it as necessary. Raul654 00:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Actually, we may be able to save a significant amount of bandwidth that way because of all the times features articles are viewed. —Remember the dot (talk) 04:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Both gif and png use fairly good compression algorithms. The size difference between a thumbnailed gif and png is trivial. Raul654 02:23, 22 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
If this can easily be done with a semi-automated bot why not just run through the new featured articles at the end of the month (there are only about 60)? Christopher Parham (talk) 02:48, 22 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

Technical content

Latest comment: 18 years ago7 comments4 people in discussion

How about setting up some technical content FA process? A lot of technical content can't be boiled down to the same level as a Celebrity biography, or an article about the flag of Peru, and that appears to be a criteria imposed by reviewers for getting technical articles through the FA process. Just wondering... SqlPac 20:26, 18 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

I feel your pain, but the current FA criteria do not in principle disallow technical articles. However, no one can stop commenters from broad "this is too technical" objections, and I hope those objections are given no more weight than any other unsubstantiated comment. What a sad encyclopedia this would be if a dense subject could not become an FA, while Pokemon can. The key is to give every reader a basic overview of the subject in the lead of the article. As long as you've done that, consider the objections nullified—no pun intended. My suggestion for your Null (SQL) would be to provide more of an overview of the article in the lead. Take a look at the recently passed Equipartition theorem for your inspiration and precedent. For most of us readers, its lead is our only hope. –Outriggr § 08:10, 20 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
We just narrowed down the intro and put a lot of the content in the new History subsection :) LOL. I'll definitely check out the Equipartition theorem article, and see what we can apply from there to the Null (SQL) article. While the FA criteria might not explicitly disallow technical articles, a quick run-through of the current crop of FA articles shows that biographies and national flag articles have a much greater chance of achieving FA status. And after the initial comments on the FA review for Null (SQL), it seems that the reason might be that (as one reviewer stated) technical articles need to be "dumbed-down" to make the cut. I think that's a pretty sad commentary about the articles used to "represent the best content on Wikipedia," or at least about the process for selecting them. SqlPac 19:53, 20 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
I don't think that looking through the current crop tells you a lot about the chances of different articles; it says more about the interests of the projects and individuals who are particularly geared up to produce numerous FAs. e.g. the hurricanes project and whatever group is bringing all the Final Fantasy games to featured status. Can you point to any technical articles that you feel were unreasonably failed? Christopher Parham (talk) 21:40, 21 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Now that you mention it, how about the Null (SQL) article?? Here's a quick rundown:
  • Article is reviewed, changes are made as necessary, and it is promoted to GA status
  • Article is nominated for FA status
  • Most of reviewers' objections are fixed immediately
  • Questions concerning clarification of some objections, and how to best fix them, are posed to reviewers
  • Other reviewers post information that contradicts some of the reviewers' objections, including the dumbing-down comment
  • Reviewers who objected fail to answer any questions or post any further information
  • Article is promoted to FA status
  • Article is immediately recommended to FAR
  • Bureaucrats who recommended article to FAR, and who support it are asked to provide information concerning what needs to be fixed in the article. Multiple times.
  • One person responds, and his few recommendations are implemented immediately
  • Others respond by saying they are not using FAR to judge the article by its content, but rather to enforce a technicality
  • No further guidance is provided, presumably because none of the reviewers in the "Featured Article Review" actually "reviewed" the article
  • The article is slated to be moved to FAC-Failed
  • Contributor on article decides it's not worth dealing with the bureaucratic nightmare and cuts down on his contributions considerably
How about an article that's promoted to FA status, and subsequently demoted with no "due process"? No objections noted, no existing objections reaffirmed, no suggestions on what needs to be fixed, no answers to requests for this information, no reviewers actually even reading the article. One would think that actually reading an article would be important during a so-called review, but as was voiced by the lead FAcker during this article's "FARce", all those FAckers weren't interested in the actual article or its content. Does that meet the criteria for reasonableness? For all these FAckers know, the article may be up to FA standards; or it might require some minor tweaks to get it there. These FAckers will never know since the entire review was a FARce. 'Nuff said. Meet the FAckers SqlPac 04:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

I don't see us changing the FA process to accomodate technical articles; however, if someone would like to come up with criteria that apply specifically to technical articles, I'm all ears. Raul654 21:36, 21 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

It would be nice to see a higher ratio of technical content to "State Flag" and "Celebrity Bio" articles identified as "the best content on Wikipedia". Many writers of technical subject matter around here have expressed the opinion that technical material will never reach FA status, so "why even try?" I'm a new member of that camp myself. Considering the vague objections accepted from reviewers (e.g., it won't make FA status if it's not "dumbed down"), it's no wonder technical writers and subject-matter experts are more than willing to tweak their articles up to GA status and stop. And the bureaucratic nightmares that can pop up on a whim? As they say in Jersey, Fuhgettaboutit. SqlPac 04:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

Transcludability

Latest comment: 18 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion

If it helps, this page is transcludable as {{Wikipedia:Featured article criteria}}; if not, revert my changes :) GracenotesT § 22:07, 18 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

Ah, I see that the intro paragraph has also been added; that's fine, although I see many more references to the bulleted points than to the introduction (and the point of transclusion is functionality). GracenotesT § 22:20, 18 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

Necessity of an FAC to have images

Latest comment: 18 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Hi all, at the moment we have a rather subjective criterion (3) in determining whether or not images are a prerequisite. After reviewing at Birchington-on-Sea I felt that images would be (a) pretty easy to get and (b) essential for facilitating engagement, I thus decided not to continue reviewing until images were added, which they were.

Now the criterion states: It has images where they are appropriate to the subject,...

I could imagine some obscure theoretical idea maybe not require images but I would have thought just about everything else would need them to make "Wikipedia's best work". Have there been FAs in recent times with no images? cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 22:05, 26 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

I think Conatus is a good example of such an "obscure technical idea", and how it can include images, however indirect the connection. But I do think that Conatus could/should have passed had it not those images... because they're not necessary... -- Rmrfstar 01:28, 27 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

Proposing new critera for images

Latest comment: 18 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion
  • It must include a link to the relevant Wikimedia Commons (perhaps relevant sister projects) page(s) where appropriate. (Not all extant sister page projects may be suitable, e.g. a patchy, poorly written Wikibook or similar).
  • All free images and media must be uploaded to Commons, not Wikipedia.

We have far too many people ignoring the message to upload free images there, not here. We also have far too few articles linking to commons when there is a valid page to link to. Creating this as a standard for FAs should signal to all articles that this is how things should be done. It will improve Wikipedia articles by providing a link to more images and other media, it will allow editors to browse other possible images to improve the article as they become available (or are moved into the category), will provide better awareness and closer relations with Commons, and it will improve commons in similar fashion, as editors may improve the commons categories/pages, upload images there for use on other projects, and see better utilization of Commons resources.

These are the best of our articles and I think they should demonstrate proper use of this important sister project. Richard001 01:14, 27 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

As for the first, there is already enough on sister projects at Wikipedia:Sister_projects, which is part of the manual of style, and thus already included in the second criterion. So no need for that. As to the second issue, I don't think this is important enough, or sufficiently related to the quality of the article, to warrant inclusion. BTW, if you want better relations with Commons then pester the devs to implement the single login. Until then, for basically all English Wikipedia contributors, there are zero visible benefits of adding to Commons and significant inconveniences. Christopher Parham (talk) 02:38, 27 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
I for one would object strongly to the second portion of the proposed addition. I'm an admin on MediaWiki.org, and we've had significant problems with Commons deleting images for no reason. There's no need to do that either. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 02:41, 27 May 2007 (UTC)Reply
Then I guess the tragedy of the commons shall continue... Hopefully they get the single login worked out pretty soon. Richard001 03:04, 27 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

Sections within FAC pages

Moved to Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates

Printable version of a FA

Latest comment: 18 years ago9 comments5 people in discussion

Some FA articles (Evolution for example) have scrollable content (References, in Evolution's case) that make the printable version incomplete. In the case of Evolution it is especially noticeable in that only a few of the many many references are in the printable version of the article. Is there any guideline about having a complete printable version in the criteria for a FA? - Bevo 02:59, 13 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

Hrm... that's a *very* interesting point... Raul654 03:04, 13 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopaedia. What we write is designed to be read on screen as part of a hyperlinked set of webpages. Formatting should be designed to aid our huge web readership, not the tiny minority of people who choose to print out web-pages. TimVickers 03:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

You're completely misusing that. If someone wants to be able to print out an article (I can see the article on evolution being very useful to pass out to a high school biology class, for example), the entire article should be there. I've been bold replaced it with {{reflist|3}}; however silly me forgot to write an edit summary, so it may be reverted by someone who prefers it how it was and isn't aware of this discussion. Atropos 03:57, 13 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

Isn't this a problem that should have a technical solution; i.e. that the scroll box should be automatically expanded in the 'printable version'?--Pharos 04:08, 13 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

File a feature request - http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/ Raul654 04:09, 13 June 2007 (UTC)Reply
OK, it's filed as Bug 10239 if anyone cares to look at it or comment there. Also, I'm not really technically inclined so it might be helpful to check that I described it properly.--Pharos 04:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

Is there any markup that allows conditional expansion depending on whether or not the current rendering is the printable version of an article? I imagine it would be some sort of If-Then-Else construction. It would be useful for alternative images to the animated ones, for example, as well as for using the simpler rendering of the References list for the printable version. - Bevo 04:32, 13 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

This desire to print a web-page, although interesting, is not something Wikipedia is designed to achieve. Please read Wiki is not paper, which addresses this point directly. We are not writing a book. We are writing a web- or CD-based set of hyperlinked web pages. TimVickers 04:36, 13 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

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