Talk:Kadam (Tibetan Buddhism)
Unfair words against Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, so I added a link to his point of view. Rgds, Eirikur(eirikur@itn.is).
I suggest a complete revision of this article
I suggest a complete revision of the text to the Old Kadampa Tradition. What here is described is to easy and does not touch the deep tradition of Atisha. My problem is, I do not speak English very well, but you can find under Wikipedia German Kadampa a very detailed and precise description of this ancient tradition.
My corrections are: not Atisha has founded that tradition; his main lay disciple Dromtönpa has founded it. Atisha himself was a complete open and non sectarian master (like Je Tsongkhapa too) and he was even much respected in the Theravada school. He promoted mainly Sutra teachings and Tantra teachings only very secret. Dromtönpa himself gave three different lineages to the "three brothers". So there were three different Kadampa lineages after Dromtönpa. The origin of the Sakya, Kagyu and Gelugpa are connected with this lineage and the most of the Kadampa teachings are took into all Tibetan Buddhist schools, also Nyingmapa. All three Kadampa lineages of Dromtönpa were collected and absorbed complete into Gelug Tradition by Je Tsongkhpa. And Gampopa the main disciples of Milarepa and great Kagyu master was also a disciple of the Kadampa-Tradition of Atisha and integrated these teachings into the teachings given by Milarepa to him. So he combined Mahamudra, the six Yogas of Naropa and the Kadampa Teachings (especially on Bodhichitta) and passed it to his disciples.
Today there is no Kadampa Tradition as taught by Atisha anymore!
(The New Kadampa Tradition is based on Gelug teachings and can not referred to as being Kadampa Tradition as taught by Atisha or Dromtönpa. Atisha also taught Kalachakra and other Tantras which are part of Gelugpa but not New Kadampa Tradition. And he also emphasised the Vinaya very much, also no part of the NKT but of Gelugpa. And the root master of Geshe Kelsang was not a Kadampa master he was a Gelugpa! I think there happened a big misunderstanding over the years with the advertisement of the NKT:
To be inspired to practice like the eagles of the Old Kadampas does not convert a Gelugpa back into an Old Kadampa!
New Kadampa Tradition is based on the teachings of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongkha Rinpoche and the latter has made himself something new, like to emphasize the Vajrayogini Tantra (from Sakyapa) and give up the main protectors of the Gelug tradition (Mahakala, Kalarupa, Vairavana) and promote Shugden. Because Geshe Kelsang only offers a small (but of course essential) range of the teachings and made also new styles like the 10-vows-ordination for nuns & monks, my opinion is that it is better to refer NKT as his own tradition, based on Gelugpa teachings and inspired by the example of the old Kadampas and with different new aspects made by him. And not mix it with Old Kadampas or New Kadampas - because "New Kadampas" were given to the Gelug Tradition it is just a second name for Gelug Tradition. So there would be much less confusion than claiming or give the impression that Old Kadampas has survived as NKT or NKT is Old Kadampas...)
Perhaps there is somebody who can translate the German article of Wikipedia or can make the points more clear? The German article on Kadampa Tradition (Atisha’s) is quite objective an unbiased. -- Kt66 15:53, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
New Changes reverted
@ 09:10, 8 September 2005 134.2.147.103 (Lojong and Bodhicitta are not the same, Lojong is not from the Kadam school, etc. etc.)
Lojong is the way how to develop a special strong Bodhichitta. It was passed by Serlingpa (the master from Sumatra) to Atisha who stayed with Serlingpa for 12 years. These teachings on how to develop Bodhichitta is one of the special features of the Kadampa school and was overtook in all Tibetan Buddhist schools. If you want to improve an article please change the sections which you see as wrong or discuss it before here at the board. --Kt66 17:10, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
- If you disagree with my changes, it is no more responsible to simply revert them. Let us start first of all with the question of English. There is no excuse to write Lodschong in English. Also, the sentance starting 'Him was prophesised' made so little sense that there is really no point in keeping it. Also, I do not think it excusable to misspell things like Bodhicitta (not Bodhichitta!). Vielleicht handelt es sich um eine Übersetzung. In diesen Fall soll ich vielleicht den vorliegende Deutsche Ausgabe hingucken.
- About facutal matters, whaterever the relationship between Bodhicitta (in Tib. Byang-chub-sems) and Lojong (Blo-sbyong) they are not the same and it is wrong to simply equate them. My own understanding was that the seven point mind training tradition was founded by the Shangs-pa Bka'-brgyud teacher Kun-po Rnal-'byor.
- vis-a-vis Tsong-ka-pa, he was himself trained a Sa-skya and there is no indication that within his own life he saw himself as forming a new school.
- vis-a-vis the New Kadampa this school is not specifically western, and does see itself as schismatic.
- hi! The spelling of the English-words I agree of course - thank you for your help; but not the facts on Tsongkhapa. First: Tsongkhapa had many Lamas from all traditions you can not refer him to this or that tradition. His main master in Madhyamika was Rendawa, a great Sakya Lama, but he also received Mahamudra Teachings in the Kagyu Lineage and got first lay ordination from the Karmapa. The most founders of the tibetan schools were non-sectarian, they belonged to no specific school. Even Tsongkhapa were scolded to practice eclecticism. He was quite sceptical on all Tibetan commentaries and checked all what he received with the Indian scriptures of the great Indian Panditas and by meditating on them. He also received the Kalachakra teachings and the Chöd Lineage of Machig Labtrön (Shije Lineage)- he had also visions of her...Perhaps he was one of the fist Rime-Masters!
- NKT is a western tradition they see themselves as western organisation and NKT has no roots in the Tibetan Buddhist community even Geshe Kelsang stopped all contacts to the Tibetan Buddhist community. Only westerners teach in their organisation...--Kt66 10:46, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
- The teachings on Bodhicitta of the lineage of Serlingpa (also known as Dharmakirti) ---> Atisha is one of the most famous features of the Kadampa Tradition. First Atisha gave this mind training on Bodhicitta (later known as Lojong-mind-training) only to Dromtönpa. Dromtönpa gave it to only four disciples and they were kept secret; later when Geshe Chekhawa made these teachings on how to train in Bodhicitta (of the Kadampa lineage) public, it became known as Lojong or Seven-Point-Mind-Training. The root text was written by Geshe Chekhawa and is the scriptural edition of the oral transmission of the Kadampa Masters. Geshe Chekhawa was a Kadampa Geshe/ Kadampa Master. Before Geshe Chekhawa these teachings were taught very secret and only the text of Geshe Langri Tangpa (also a Kadmapa Master) "Eight steps on Training the Mind" were available. So one can refer to that teachings on Bodhicitta of the Kadampa Tradition as Lojong Teachings. However I also agree to some compromise because we discussed it here. However there is also to mark that there exist different texts on Lojong mind training. None of the Lojong texts I own is not starting by Serlingpa and Atisha and refer to the root verses on Seven-Point-Mind-Training Geshe Chekhawa Yeshe Dorje, also Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoches Commentary on it. --Kt66 11:30, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
I suspect that your information comes from rumours you have heard and not from contemporary historical sources, it is clear that in any case it is partisan. I must admit that 15th century Tibet is not my arrea. The impression within the Bka'-brgyud sect is certainly not that Blo-sbyong (Lojong) comes from the Kadampa tradition. While I admit that sectarianism was not to divisive in the 15th century as it was to become latter, I object to two things. Rimed is an anti-Geluk 19th century movement, so Tshong-ka-pa does not qualify as a member. (not anti-Geluk you say, well, read something by Byams-dgongs-mkhon-sprul (Jamgön Kontrul) and then we will talk) Secondly, Tshong-ka-pa was no doubt a Sa-skya, I think if you consider where he grew up, with whom he studied, and in particular which Tantric practices he introduced into his movement his origins as a Sa-skya will be clear. Truth be told, you are the first I have ever heard object to this, I thought it was taken for granted as a historcal fact. But as I said 15th century is not my forte.
Apropos of New Kadmapa, I don't know any insiders, but I thought the whole point was that this movement split with the Gelukpa's over the Rdo-rje Gzhugs-ldan (Dorje Shugden) issue. There are certainly adherents of the Shugden movement who are not Westerners. (p.s. Shugden is a Sa-skya lake diety, see the paper of (Geshe) George Dryfus).
Detailed Informations on the Kadampa Lineage
After the death of Atisha (1054) his main disciple Lama Dromtonpa (Drom-tön Gyal-we Jungne, 1005 - 1054) organized his transmissions into the legacy known as "The Four Divinities and Three Dharmas" - a tradition whereby an individual practitioner could perceive all doctrines of the sutras and tantras as non-contradictory and could personally apply them all as complementary methods for the accomplishment of enlightenment. Eventually this lineage came to be known as Atisha's Kadam Tradition, the Marvellous Legacy of Seven Divine Dharmas. Lama Dromtonpa transmitted the various lineages of Atisha by dividing them between The Three Noble Brothers. To one he gave the scriptural traditions, to the second the oral transmissions, and to the third the pith instructions. The Three Noble Brothers are: Geshe Potowa, Geshe Phuchungwa and Geshe Chenngawa. Geshe Potowa (1031-1106) received the entire scriptual teachings and hidden verbal transmission of both sutra and tantra from Dromtonpa. The scriptural traditions were of two main types: those dealing with ultimate reality and the wisdom of emptiness; and those dealing with conventional reality and the vast Bodhimind (Skt. Bodhicitta) activities. As for the former of these, or those dealing with the ultimate wisdom of emptiness, the principal texts stressed here were Nagarjuna's six treatises on emptiness philosophy, such as The Root of Wisdom (Skt., Mulamadhyamikakarika) and so forth, together with the commentaries to them by the later Indian masters; and also Atisha's own commentaries on the middle view and on the nature of the two truths. Six quintessential texts were used to elucidate the nature of the bodhisattva's vast activities: The Bodhisattva Stages (Skt., Bodhisattvabhumi) by Asanga; An Ornament of the Mahayana Sutras (Skt., Mahayanasutraalamkara) by Maitreya/Asanga; A Compendium of Bodhisattva Trainings (Skt., Shikshasamucchaya) by Shantideva; A Guide to the Bodhisattva Way (Skt., Bodhisattvacharyaavatara) by Shantideva; A Garland of Birth Stories (Skt., Jatakamala) by Aryashura, and The Collected Sayings of the Buddha (Skt., Udanavarga) - the Tibetan Dhammapada by Dharmatrata. It is the tradition to read at the Great Prayer Festival (Mönlam) the fifth of these, A Garland of Birth Stories, during the morning session. These were the principal scriptures studied in the Old Kadam School. As for the oral transmission teachings, these emanated from and were the essential practices taught in the five scriptures mentioned above. These oral tradition teachings are generally known as "the instructions for training the mind in the Mahayana tradition" (Tib., Theg-chen-blo-sbyong-gi-gdampa-pa). Atisha had collected these Lojong Teachings from his three principal Indian gurus (from his Master Dharmakirti (Serlingpa), Guru Dharmarakshita and Yogi Maitreya) and later he secretly transmitted them to his main disciple, Lama Dromtonpa. During the time of the The Three Noble Kadampa Brothers many of these oral teachings were collected together and compiled into the text Stages of the Doctrine (Lamrim; tib.: sTan-rim). Yet at the time the lineages from Atisha’s Indonesian master Serlingpa (the Lojong - Teachings on how to train in Bodhichitta) were still kept secret! When the times were sufficiently mature the Lojong Teachings were publicly revealed. First Geshe Kham Lungpa published Eight Sessions for Training the Mind (Tib., bLo-sbyong-thun-brgyad-ma). Then Geshe Langri Tangpa (1054-1123) wrote Eight Verses for Training the Mind (Tib., bLo-sbyong-tshig-brgyad-ma). After this Sangye Gompa composed A Public Explanation (Tib., Tshogs-bshad-ma) and Geshe Chekhawa (1102-1176)wrote Seven Points for Training the Mind (Tib., bLo-sbyong-don-bdun-ma). By this way the Lojong Oral Transmission Teachings gradually emerged and became known to the public. However they exist before secret by the lineage of Serlingpa-> Atisha-> Dromtöpa -> Potowa -> Sharawa (1070-1141) -> Chekhawa (1101-1175). From Khamlungpa, Langri Tangpa and basically Chekhawa onwards they became public and later they were integrated into all four Tibetan Buddhist Schools. (These Kadampa-Lojong texts were brought together into the anthology A Hundred Texts on Training the Mind (Tib., bLo-byong-brgya-rtsa).) As for the third lineage the pith instructions transmitted by Lama Dromtonpa has its root in the secret oral teachings of Atisha and his disciples as embodied in The Great Book of the Kadampa Masters: A Jewel Rosary of Profound Instructions on the Bodhisattva Way. The Kadam Tradition has mainly emphasised the Sutra Path (The Union of Compassion and Wisdom). The Kadampa Lineage is also summarized by "The Teachings Of The Four Divinities and Three Dharmas That Adorn The Body", "The Three Containers That Adorn The Speech" and "The Three Disciplines That Adorn The Consciousness".
Ok if you have more detailed informations or you can improve or refuse my information’s your most welcome but please do it by knowing and after checking it out ;-) I activated a little bit when I said: Je Tsongkhpa was perhaps the first Rime Master!; because to many people are to attached and fixed to traditions and belief on them of something very solid and fixed. A tradition is always a mix of different transmission lineages and the understanding and practice of the Dharma of the main masters of that lineage. In Tibet there is the saying: "One Lama one lineage." If you want to read more detail informations on Tsongkhapas non-sectarian style you can read his biographies like "Source of all Goddness". The Tibetan title I can give you next time I lent the book to someone.
PS: Your statemant: "The impression within the Bka'-brgyud sect is certainly not that Blo-sbyong (Lojong) comes from the Kadampa tradition." look at "The Great Path of Awakening : The Classic Guide to Using the Mahayana Buddhist Slogans to Tame the Mind and Awaken the Heart" by Jamgon Kongtrul (see http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1570625875/ref=sib_rdr_bc/103-4065359-0629438?%5Fencoding=UTF8&p=S00H&j=0#reader-page) he says totally the same: The root text was written down by Chekhawa Yeshe Dorje, a Kadampa Master. So different Gelug texts say this, Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, Jamgon Kongtrul say it. I got the same information’s from different high Lamas from all Tibetan Buddhist lineages, from Karma Kagyu, Drikung Kagyu school and so on. Look also at http://community.palouse.net/lotus/ljp2.htm or make your own investigation and put it on the board. --Kt66 16:12, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
The Meaning of Kadampa - temporarily pulled from article.
"Ka" means all of Buddha's teachings in general, "dam" means the special presentation of Buddha's teachings devised by Venerable Atisha which is called Lamrim or Stages of the Path to Enlightenment, and "pa" means a person who practices this teachings. Therefore, a Kadampa is anyone whose main practice is lamrim, and who integrates all their spiritual teachings and trainings into lamrim.
My objection to this is that it is patently based upon a didactic method, but it misses the central thrust, which is that the name "Kadampa" is a name. The name is representative of a school of practice that survived as a distinct movement in Tibet for about two hundred years. Therefore a Kadampa is NOT anyone whose main practice is lamrim! A Kadampa is anyone who belonged to the Kadam / Kadampa school. KP - don't blur things once more. Keep traditions distinct, and understand the difference between a name and it's etymology. My friend Drolma isn't Tara or a liberator, just because she is called Drolma! (20040302 07:46, 23 September 2005 (UTC))
- Dear March 2nd, I recently included a section on the meaning of Kadampa, which is accurate, but which was removed for unclear reasons. I would be grateful if you would state your reasons before removing anything.
- The article does not contain a definition of Kadampa and it would be helpful to include one. I think there is a problem here insomuch as you are unable to distinguish clearly between Gelugpa, Gelugpa tradition and Kadampa. A Kadampa is anyone who practises lamrim Are you saying that anyone who is a Kadampa has to be a part of the Gelugpa tradition? This is absurd. You are at pains to show that New Kadampas are not Gelugpas - that's fine, we are not part of the Gelugpa tradition, quite deliberately so, but you cannot say that we are not Kadampas. KT66 has this misunderstanding too. To practise lamrim, you don't have to be part of the Gelugpa tradition, but anyone whose main practice is lamrim is a Kadampa. That is also the reason why I deleted what seems to me to be a very sectarian inclusion, "not to be confused with". This article, as it stands, is discriminatory and inaccurate therefore I would like to reintroduce the change that you have deleted. With love, :--Kelsangpagpa 07:58, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
- This tradition is based on a variety of Gelug teachings and it represent not the ancient Kadampa Tradition of Atisha. This is my specific point of contention. What determines whether something represents the ancient Kadampa Tradition of Atisha? Would you claim that only the Gelugpa tradition represents this tradition, or would you say that nothing does?
- My criterion for whether something represents the ancient Kadampa Tradition of Atisha is whether the teachings are a continuation of this tradition, in other words, if they are pure lamrim teachings. If New Kadampa Tradition teachings are the same as those given by Venerable Atisha (if they are pure lamrim) then Kadampa Buddhism as practised by NKT does represent the Ancient Kadampa Tradition of Atisha. Our main text, which is Joyful Path of Good Fortune is a pure lamrim text, so the discriminatory statement should be removed. With love, --Kelsangpagpa 08:10, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
- Hi again KP (use a colon at the beginning of your paragraph to indent - it helps to distinguish authorship - two colons etc. indents more and more)
- There seems to be a conflict of view between yourself and KWinters regarding the status of the NKT and Kadampa. She/He says "You wrongly see (NKT) as an offshoot of a Tibetan school when we are clear that we are an independent western Buddhist movement which is based upon the teachings of the Kadampa lineage."
- Before going into the rest of your discussion, I ask for clarity; are you saying that the (Kadam) were not a Tibetan school founded by Dromtönpa? It seems that you want to say that anyone who practices lam rim is a Kadampa. Do you not see the different usage of this term? The former case is a well-known term to reflect a specific Tibetan school that lasted so many years. The latter is a different use of the term - talking about the quality of a person's practice.
- I amended the 'not to be confused with' text to make it reflect the views of the NKT in a manner which I hope is less objectionable to you. (20040302 09:16, 23 September 2005 (UTC))
- Dear March 2nd, thank you, that is a bit better - with love, --Kelsangpagpa 12:30, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
On whether New Kadampa Tradition are Kadampas
Dear Everyone,
I would like to remove the last section of this article, which seems to me to be discriminatory and inaccurate, and to reinstate the definition of Kadampa that was removed from the article. I would now like to prove to you that NKT practitioners are Kadampas, in accordance with the definition which was pulled from the article by the Wikipedia user March 2nd.
Firstly, there is no contradiction between myself and K Winters. March 2nd says:
There seems to be a conflict of view between yourself and KWinters regarding the status of the NKT and Kadampa. She/He says "You wrongly see (NKT) as an offshoot of a Tibetan school when we are clear that we are an independent western Buddhist movement which is based upon the teachings of the Kadampa lineage."
Firstly, what is independent? Buddha taught that everything is dependent. Kristi says: You wrongly see (NKT) as an offshoot of a Tibetan school when we are clear that we are an independent western Buddhist movement which is based upon the teachings of the Kadampa lineage What she says is completely correct. We are different from and independent of the Tibetan 'Gelugpa' tradition, insomuch as we do not follow the authority of the Dalai Lama and the Ganden Tripa, but we are dependent on the teachings of the Kadampa Lineage. We follow the authority of Atisha, Je Tsongkhapa, Je Pabongkhapa, Trijang Rinpoche and Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. We are a different 'brand' of Kadampa, but Kadampas nonetheless because we are a suitable basis for imputing 'Kadampa' - namely, we practise the teachings of Atisha and Je Tsongkhapa (the lineage holders of the Old and New Kadampa respectively) and our main practice is lamrim (and also lojong and Vajrayana Mahamudra).
Where does the term 'Kadampa' come from? It is the name of a Buddhist tradition that began in Tibet with 'Lamp for the Path' by Atisha, composed as a result of a request from Tibetan King Yeshe O, but what distinguishes Kadampa from Kagyu, or Nyingma, for example? Kadampas have lamrim as their main practice. The Kadampa tradition is so called because it is made up of Kadampa practitioners, and the distinguishing characteristic of such practitioners is that Lamrim, the special presentation of Buddha's teachings originated by Atisha and elucidated by Je Tsongkhapa, is their main practice. By this definition, NKT practitioners are Kadampas. Our lineage is pure Kadampa, and our practice is pure Kadampa.
Kt66 seems to think that the Kadampa lineage disappeared or was absorbed into the Gelugpa tradition, but this is completely incorrect. I can list our Lineage Gurus, from Buddha Shakyamuni to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, for both our vast path teachings and our profound path teachings, and show that there is an unbroken lineage of Kadampa practitioners to the present day. Kt66 has accused us of lying (or at best misrepresenting ourselves) when we say that we are Kadampas, but why should we lie? I can prove that we are Kadampas and that the lineage is intact.
This is what he says (in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:New_Kadampa_Tradition/Archive_2):
K Winters: --Again, this is your biased opinion and is contrary to the facts. Since we study Lamrim and the teachings of Je Tsongkhapa you are wrong to say we are not in the Kadampa lineage. It should not be included in the main body of the article.
Kt66 - Sorry, I think you have a biased opinion and list wrong facts! NKT lies on that point. I repeat: NKT lies on that point! And you're completely ignorant about the facts! NKT is NO Kadampa NO Gelugpa. If you would know Gelugpa and Kadampa lineage and their texts really you would agree but your totally absorbed in NKT ideas and do not know anything outsite NKT, isn't it? Since Nyingma and Kagyuepa practice Lamrim are they Kadampas? Even Drikung Kagyu posesses main teachings of Kadampas and they do not claim to be Kadampa Tradition because it just does not exist outsite the four main Buddhist school. (I assume he means that four main Tibetan Buddhist schools of Nyingma, Sakya, Kagyu and Gelug)
The reason why Kagyupas and Nyingmas are not Kadampas is that their main practice is not lamrim. Kagyupas follow the instructions and lineage of Marpa and Milarepa as their main practice, a different presentation of Dharma emphasising Mahamudra, and Nyingmas follow Padmasambhava and Rabjam Longchenpa. We exclusively follow the teachings of Atisha, the Kadampa Geshes such as Geshe Potowa, Geshe Chekhawa and Geshe Langri Tangpa (we study their lojong root texts) and Je Tsongkhapa. This is OUR lineage – the Kadampa lineage. Therefore, we are Kadampas and it is quite incorrect for you to say otherwise. We are not lying. We meet the criteria for being Kadampas and we are Kadampas – Modern Day Kadampas.
I am not saying that 'Gelugpa tradition' practitioners are not Kadampas, so why are you saying that we aren't Kadampas? You have incorrectly judged us without the correct information. Tibetan Buddhists is so keen to denounce NKT in order to justify their position on Dorje Shugden that they haven't properly investigated the lineage and motivation of NKT and so make false claims such as we are not Kadampas. If you think that we are not Kadampas because we are not part of your Gelugpa organisation, you are wrong.. It's like claiming that Gelugpas are the 'one true Kadampas', in the way that some Christian traditions may claim to have exclusivity. For example, can you find Christians outside of an organised church? Of course! A Christian is anyone who follows the teachings of Christ. A Kadampa is someone who practices the teachings of the Kadampas and who follows that lineage. In the same way that you don't have to be part of a church to be a Christian, you can be a Kadampa without being part of the 'Gelugpa tradition' as an organisation, or even the NKT. Furthermore, we can use the same arguments that we have used with Kadampa to prove that we are Gelugpas. If a Gelugpa is a follower of Je Tsongkhapa, and a practitioner of his teachings, we are also Gelugpas. There is absolutely no definition of Gelugpa in which one is a Gelugpa only if one follows the authority of the Dalai Lama and the Ganden Tripa! I would personally like to know what the Dalai Lama's role is in the Gelugpa tradition to dictate its belief and direction, given that he is not a Lineage Guru but that's another issue. The point is, a Gelugpa is simply a follower of Je Tsongkhapa as a Christian is simply a follower of Jesus.
(As an aside, I recently discovered that Trijang Rinpoche was the Ganden Tripa at one point, and he enthusiastically encouraged the practice of Dorje Shugden. However, the Dalai Lama is not following his direction, even though Trijang Rinpoche was one of his Gurus. It seems that even the Dalai Lama doesn't follow the authority of someone who was both the Ganden Tripa and his Guru – a most strange example of Guru devotion! It's also interesting that even Ganden Tripas do not agree on the status and nature of Dorje Shugden.)
In 'Modern Day Kadampas – the History and Development of the New Kadampa Tradition' Modern Day Kadampas, Jim Belither says:
All of Geshe Kelsang's books are commentaries to Je Tsongkhapa's teachings. Indeed, Geshe-la has remarked that he regards all these books as coming from Je Tsongkhapa, with himself as being like a cassette recorder into which the Wisdom Buddha, the Dharma Protector Dorje Shugdän, has placed the cassette of Je Tsongkhapa's teachings.
So this is how I see it: You are the Tibetan Gelugpa tradition, NKT are the Western Gelugpa tradition. A Gelugpa is a follower of Je Tsongkhapa. Your lineage is the same as ours, but splits at Trijang Rinpoche.
Therefore it is incorrect to say that:
1.Kadampas no longer exist in this world and their lineage can only be found in Tibetan Buddhist traditions. Kadampa teachings are alive and well and living in the West in the New Kadampa Tradition as well as in the Gelugpa Tradition of Tibetan Buddhism.
2.New Kadampa Tradition is incorrectly named. As I have shown, it is clearly a tradition of Kadampas, followers of Atisha.
3.That 'Kadampa' is only a tradition of Tibetan Buddhism, and not a description of a practitioner for whom lamrim is their main practice. Therefore the definition of Kadampa should be reinstated in the article.
Please don't misunderstand: I'm not making an exclusive claim for NKT to be the only Kadampas of this world, just as when I say we are a pure tradition I are not saying that all other traditions are impure, but you must now recognise the legitimacy of my claim for NKT to be Kadampas. Therefore the last section (not to be confused with....) should be removed. - with love, --Kelsangpagpa 12:54, 25 September 2005 (UTC)