Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates

What's with the new section?

When did the new section Wikipedia:Featured article candidates#New nomination, without feedback as yet get added to the types of articles, and what purpose does it serve. Self nominations go to their own section, nonself nominations go in the without objections (yet) section. Am I missing something? Gentgeen 13:19, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I'm confused too. Now U.S. Electoral College is under current nominations, but not under a sub-heading, and there's comments against articles in the "without feedback as yet" section. Someone feel like reorganising? And how about a notice to tell people that newer nominations go at the bottom? fabiform | talk 16:57, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Brilliant pictures candidates

Ahem... I propose that Wikipedia:Brilliant pictures candidates be merged with this page. It currently has only 7 images on it, two of which have sat ignored for over two months. No one goes there, no one objects or comments, and no one moves them to Brilliant pictures after a suitable time... everyone here is good at all of those things however! Sorry for using this page rather than the talk page, but my proposal went without comment on the village pump. fabiform | talk 16:20, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Agree with the above. It could be a subsection of this page. →Raul654 01:55, Feb 4, 2004 (UTC)
- Please, not until the Refreshing BP articles with objections are cycled out. This page is hovering at about 35K as it is, no need to make it bigger. After this page clears up a bit, OK. Gentgeen 03:49, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  - This is doe to be resolved Jan 20th. Bmills 12:30, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)
    - That's Feb. 20th, right? ;) Jan 20th was when those 31 articles were added here. Gentgeen
      - Sorry, my mistake. Feb 20th it is. Bmills 12:55, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Object! This page ia waaay too big already (42k at the moment). Even if there was a clean out it will just grow again later. --Gaz 12:21, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  - There are currently 45 normal nominations on this page, many of which should be cleaned up and either archived or added to FA. Then there are 28 articles on here that are a one time listing from the results from Refreshing brilliant prose that will be gone in a week. That should bring us back well below te 32k limit. Featured picture candidates gets ignored, so I don't see it as a bad thing. If we gradually creep back up to the 32k size, we can always split it off again. Gentgeen 16:53, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
    - So... its a mess now, but it should hopefully maybe be just OK Real Soon Now (tm). ...and you want to add more content into this mess. I see you have convinced yourself, but sorry, you haven't convinced me. (PS: We should take this debate elsewhere) --Gaz 06:31, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)
      - OK, we've got a voice speaking out against the proposed merge. As the page should get cleaned up sometime tomorrow or the next day I'll set up a poll to discuss it then, so we'll all know what a post refreshing FAC page looks like before making a decision. Gentgeen 07:35, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

My objection to the proposal is that it would act to decrease the utility of Featured Pictures. Much better to have the pictures where those few interested can find them easily than to have them lost in amongst the many, many Featured Articles. Tannin 09:58, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Removal

I don't think we've got any formal policy on how to remove a page from FA, so I don't know how to deal with the current nominations for removal. Any ideas? Gentgeen 03:26, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I would recommend a similar procedure to that used on VfD. Items are listed for 5 days and a decision is made based on concensus. If no consensus is reached (no votes to add, or fairly even votes) then the decision should (in this case) go in favour of not listing (or removing from the list). This way we ensure that featured articles should always represent the view of the community. Thoughts? --HappyDog 09:36, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I agree very much that there must be a concensus to keep the article, and failing that, it should be removed. This is ment to be the best, setting a fine example for other pages to grow from. This cannot become a hall of shame, where contested and imperfect articles (even one I personally feel is irredeemable) are the norm. Contentious articles deserve dispute headers, not "featured article" notices. Lets uphold the standards of Brilliant prose, even if that is no longer the official name (it always will be in my heart...;) Sam Spade 10:27, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I think that's the right way to do it HappyDog. If we cannot come to a clear consesus in favor of an article remaining "featured" (i.e. the vote is split), it should be removed. This will keep it hard to get on the featured articles page, which should only include the best of the best articles. :) fabiform | talk 10:36, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

There's some logic to the idea of insisting on a consensus so that only the best articles stay on the list; but it makes me feel right at home in a way I don't much like. That is, at home in California: elect a governor, recall him, name a good article, pull it out, nominate it again (easier here than in state politics)... At the moment I feel a bias on my part toward stare decisis: voting for retention of what has already made it through the adoption process, regardless of whather I much care about the particular article, unless I perceive strong reasons (preferably new ones) for zapping it. I'm not saying I'll do that, just considering it. Dandrake 23:06, Feb 18, 2004 (UTC)

So long as you mean consensus as "most", rather than consensus as "all", I agree. It's risky to have any objection be grounds for removal. In such a case, a single user with an agenda can get an article removed. If democracy is tyrany of the majority, unanamous consensus is tyrany of the crank! That said, if there's a significant number of people who want something removed, then remove it. ShaneKing 13:16, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

There is no concensus of most. Thats called a majority, and has nothing to do with concensus. Truth is not based on democracy. Sam Spade 03:07, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I agree - if someone requests an article be taken off the FA and it goes to a vote, then the majority should have to vote in favor of keeping it as a featured article. I think there should be one caveat - to prevent abuse, an article should not be voted on more than once every _(fill in blank)____ days/weeks/months/years. (Someone please suggest a length of time). →Raul654 23:49, Feb 18, 2004 (UTC)

That's sensible, I don't know what time-frame to suggest though. We should remember that wikipedia is ever-changing though so the caveat should be more like: an article should not be voted on more than once every _(fill in blank)____ days/weeks/months/years unless it has changed radically (there's a page in the "votes for removal" that has had to be protected because of an edit war for example, eek!). fabiform | talk 09:49, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

OK, how long do we list nominations for removal? I don't like five days, as that's a shorter time than anything esle we do around here. How about if it's still objected to after a week it gets tossed? Gentgeen 13:05, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I agree with that. How about the following rules (summarised from above, with a few additions of my own. Feel free to tweak it) --HappyDog 16:56, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Additions

If less than 5 votes have been made within one week of the suggestion being posted it will not be added to the featured articles page.
If 5 or more votes have been made within one week of the suggestion being posted, then the page will be added only if there are more votes for the addition than there are against it. In the event of an equal number of votes on each side the page will not be added.
Votes added more than one week after the initial listing of the article do not count towards the decision.
A page cannot be relisted for 1 month after the original posting, unless it has undergone substantial rewrites.

Removals

If less than 5 votes have been made within one week of the suggestion being posted the article will be removed from the featured articles page.
If 5 or more votes have been made within one week of the suggestion being posted, then the page will be kept only if there are more votes against the deletion than there are for it. In the event of an equal number of votes on each side the page will be removed.
Votes added more than one week after the initial listing of the article do not count towards the decision.
A page cannot be relisted for 1 month after the original posting, unless it has undergone substantial rewrites.
A page cannot be listed for deletion unlees it has been a featured article for 1 month or more.

This isn't a voting page, it's a concensus page. For something to be placed on Featured articles the community needs to agree that it is one of the best articles on the site. If an article has 3 supports and 2 outstanding objections it should not go on the featured list. If it has 9 supports and 1 objection it might be good enough, but we should work on fixing the objection anyway. Additionally, as far as I'm concerned, a page that failed to make it up could be relisted 1 hour after the discussion was archived if the page had undergone edits to remedy the outstanding objections, however, if a page has not been improved it should not be relisted even after a year has passed.

Now, I'm not sure what procedure to follow about removing articles, but lean in favor of a concensus needed to keep an article on the FA list, so any unaddressed, specific objection should be enough to remove the listing. Gentgeen 17:27, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

That means that everybody has veto power over the adoption of any page, so long as he can register some kind of objection. And if something I don't like slips on while I'm not looking, I can get it removed though not one other editor agrees with my objection. I think this is too stringent. By a whole lot.(ShaneKing has already said this, but it seems to have been forgotten.) Some modified version of Happy Dog's proposal would be much better. Dandrake 05:06, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Gentgeen just above. An objectionable article should be removed, and consensus should be needed for an article to be kept. It is also fine to re-nominate the article, or to try to convince them to change their mind. If they are a nut, they will prob get banned and go away, and then the article can again be brilliant prose. But I do not want a BS article on this list, even if the majority thinks it's copacetic. An article which offends a single reasonable editor is sure to offend a goodly number of the public, if and when they read it. This is ment to be our best, and nothing less. The last thing I want is a new reader seeing some grotesquery like libertarian socialism on their first (and surely last) visit. Sam Spade 05:17, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

A reasonable editor, eh? And if an objection is raised by an unreasonable editor, we'll just strike it out? The idea that people who hold unreasonable opinions and do not deal reasonably with other Wikipedians will be cease to be a problem because they'll be banned is not only ludicrous but destructive. By the way, you are identifying non-unanimity with majority vote. I assume this is an accident, and you'll amend that rather than be suspected of trying to confuse the issue?

This is really a non-debate at this point: one either thinks that every person here needs to have veto power and unilateral removal power, or not. It sounds like a subject for some kind of poll. Dandrake 05:28, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)

New subtopic: notification. If an article can be kept on FA only by having enough people endorse it when it's listed here, then there really has to be some kind of notification when it's listed for removal. (Of course, if unanimity is required for retention, this doesn't matter; see above.) Right now it's as if we expected that everybody will monitor this list unless there's no article that he thinks is worthy of FA status; this sort of assumption seems too common at Wikipedia and needs to be thought about. Is it assumed that such a notice will be posted? (It didn't happen for the massive review of old aricles on the list; it seems nobody thought of it.)

In fact, even a notice on the page is not necessarily good enough. What if a person admires a page but doesn't happen to look at it for a week? I don't have a good answer to this problem, but might we not think about it before adopting a procedure? Dandrake 05:32, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)

Libertarian Socialism

Toby Bartels appears to be testing the process by arbitrarily restoring this page. If it requires a concensus to remove an article, I think we should get rid of Wikipedia:Featured articles all together, or at least get them off of the main page, because displaying propoganda/junk pages like this one as "our finest" degrades any sensible readers opinion of the wikipedia. Sam Spade 03:12, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Toby Bartels writes: Yes, I guess that I am "testing" things -- although not "arbitrarily", since there was a clear lack of consensus for removal. But read my longer post [written simultaneously with Sam's post -- edit conflict and everything ^_^]:

I just wrote this on the main page, about Libertarian socialism, which Sam removed and I replaced:

What is the procedure on removal anyway? Do we require consensus to remove, or do we only require a lack of consensus to keep? If the latter, then Sam was right to remove it. OTOH, if the latter, then Sam could have removed it before the discussion, which certainly doesn't seem to be the procedure. I will ask for discussion on this talk page. -- Toby Bartels 03:21, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Sam apparently decided to remove the page, based on HappyDog's original post under this heading. But of course we don't have consensus for that rule yet (^_^). I'd like to argue that the criteria for keeping, whatever they are, must be weaker than the criteria for listing in the first place; otherwise, the listing could be rather unstable. OTOH, instability is probably not a problem, so long as it doesn't entail edit wars (say if Sam removes it again, and I replace it again ... but I don't do edit wars, so that won't happen in this case). Since this list is meta-data, the actual system doesn't matter much, so long as it's clear (this is a big difference between votes here and votes on VfD). Thus, Gentgeen's idea that "any unaddressed, specific objection" necessitates removal will be a problem; it's not very definite. Again with this example, I find no unaddressed, specific objection to Libertarian socialism -- only a few people who object to the idea covered by the article, without any coherent objection to the article and its coverage. Yet I doubt that Sam agrees with this characterisation! Thus, although I've argued against voting systems on many occasions in the past, a strict voting method (such as HappyDog suggested, or another) would probably be best. Then both Sam and I agree could agree how to interpret the results -- even if one of us found the results terribly wrong! ^_^ -- Toby Bartels 03:21, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

"any unaddressed, specific objection necessitates removal" is something I heartilly agree with. Libertarian Socialism is a propaganda name for communism, which it should link to. It should be a redirect, not a page, and definately not a featured article. I furthermore question the process whereby it was added to the featured articles list Sam Spade 03:27, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Yes, you do indeed agree with the suggestion you quoted. It is not policy. If a consensus is required to adopt this policy, then it will never be policy, because quite clearly there is not a consensus for the policy. Clear? What exactly should happen next as to setting a policy? Dandrake 05:37, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)

I hear you to be saying consensus is required to implement a policy? How about a supermajority? ;) Sam Spade 06:36, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I assume you have reviewed this? Talk:Libertarian socialism/Featured article removal Sam Spade 03:30, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Yes, anybody that wants to see a good example of the issue should look at this. The objections to Libertarian socialism have been almost completely groundless, as I'm confident that almost anybody would agree. (If Sam Spade and I disagree completely on the article, but agree that it's a good example -- then it must get to the heart of the issue, no? ^_^) This is as clear an argument as any that featured articles shouldn't be required to constantly maintain unanimous consent.

HappyDog's voting proposal is a good start, and I'd like to see if people can endorse it or suggest improvements. I would start with adding some notification system, since 5 votes may be required weekly to keep an article; or alternatively (better IMO), switch it to a 5 vote minimum for change either way.

-- Toby Bartels 08:41, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Voting is fun. I don't see the sense in all these numbers of five however, its a pretty arbitrary number, and will be large or small in accordance with the number of people who are interested. I think it should be concensus. If one person reccomends something, (and is seconded at least, I should hope...) that one vote should be enough to have it be considered as brilliant prose. If someone objects, there is no longer concensus. Sam Spade 05:37, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

5 is an arbitrary number, but I do think a minimum number is required. If something is listed and no-one seems interested in whether it stays a featured article or not then it probably isn't good enough to be featured. If something is listed and no-one seems to be responding then the person who listed it can always post a message on this talk page, the article talk page, the village pump or wherever else they feel might create interest. I chose 5 because 3 seemed too low, and I wanted an odd number. Feel free to suggest otherwise. --HappyDog 09:05, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I like eloquences soloution below. Sam Spade 09:35, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Should this page combine with Featured Pictures Candidates? (poll)

It has been proposed that Featured article candidates should be merged with Wikipedia:Featured pictures candidates, as the picture page gets very little attention from the community. As a large, one time listing of articles to this page have been archived, we can now evaluate this idea under "normal operating conditions". Just for information, even after archiving the discussions, the page is 33 kb long.

Lets give this a week, so voting will end at 16:00 (UTC) on March 2, 2004

Here is the proposal under discussion:

The nominations from Wikipedia:Featured pictures candidates should be added to Wikipedia:Featured article candidates to generate additional community activity regarding making additions to Wikipedia:Featured pictures. Featured picture candidates will become a redirect to Featured article candidates.

Support
1. →Raul654 17:38, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)
2. fabiform | talk 18:28, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC) (featured pictures is ignored)

Oppose
1. Gentgeen (page is already at 33 kb)
2. Tannin 18:38, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
3. Gaz 00:13, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC) (FAC is too large, FPC is NOT ignored)
4. —Eloquence 00:18, Feb 25, 2004 (UTC) (just increase visibility - add more links to the page)
5. Bevo 12:38, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC) (changed my mind)
6. Kingturtle 03:11, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
7. Sam Spade 05:26, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC) (I agree w Eloquence, just add more links to it if you want it more popular, this page is already crowded.)
8. Pollinator 00:10, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC) pages have quite different purposes
9. Muriel

Recently added to Featured articles section

Shouldn't the "Recently added to Featured articles" be placed at the bottom of this page? Afterall, the game is over for those items (and they have the most comment text associated with them making it harder to scroll past them to get to the candidates that are currently under consideration). Bevo 18:13, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I agree, it makes sense. Gentgeen 20:34, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I moved the sections around. Bevo 22:20, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Proposed changes to this page

I propose several changes to this change:

Any suggestion needs to be seconded, self-nominated or not.
Self-nominations should be marked as such, but they do not need their own section.
Articles can be removed from FA by anyone at any time, but a reason should be given in the "Recently removed" section, where discussion can continue.
There should just be four sections on this page: Current nominations, Nominations under discussion, Recently added, Recently removed.

The current structure is messy and hostile to newbies. The intent was obviously to make it easier to find things, but the opposite result has been achieved. I just spent 30 seconds wondering where to add a new nomination. Clearly something needs to be done. If nobody objects to this proposal I will implement it.—Eloquence 06:01, Feb 26, 2004 (UTC)

I like the idea that anything needs to be seconded, and I like the idea of fewer sections. I don't think your names are right, as all nominations are under consideration. Do you have in mind Current uncontested nominations for those without an unresolved objection, and Current contested nominations for those with unresolved objections? Gentgeen 08:07, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

great suggestions both of you, I second eloquences idea's, with Gentgeen's caveats :) Sam Spade 08:18, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

If anybody can remove any listing, then this means that every entry requires unanimous consent. It's ironic that Eloquence is supporting consensus while I support voting (the opposite of usual), but perhaps both of us justify this because FA is less important metacontent. ^_^ Anyway, unanimity does not seem necessary to me, so I still believe that a vote with quorum be required for change in either direction; but I'm not wedded to 50%+ for vote success, nor to 5+ for the quorum. -- Toby Bartels 19:27, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The consensus should be near unanimous. If a single person removes an article but it turns out everyone else disagrees with their rationale then we can re-add it. But I think for FA in particular we should try to please (almost) everyone. If it turns out that some people object just in order to win certain concessions then we can talk again about changing the procedure, but right now it seems to work fairly well.—Eloquence 03:31, Feb 27, 2004 (UTC)

Agree with Eloquence. Muriel 07:40, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I'd like there to be a decision one way or the other, as there appear to be a smakll number of rather dubious featured articles, and a particularly slow and uncertain process to remove them. Sam Spade 08:33, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)