Talk:Price–Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act

Private Participation

Latest comment: 19 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Within a decade, however, Congress concluded that the national interest would be best served if the Government encouraged the private sector to become involved in the development of atomic energy for peaceful purposes under a program of federal regulation and licensing. See H. R. Rep. No. 2181, 83d Cong., 2d Sess., 1-11 (1954). The Atomic Energy Act of 1954, Act of Aug. 30, 1954, ch. 1073, 68 Stat. 919, as amended, 42 U.S.C. 2011-2281 (1970 ed. and Supp. V), implemented this policy decision, providing for licensing of private construction, ownership, and operation of commercial nuclear power reactors for energy production under strict supervision by the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC). 1 See Power Reactor Development Co. v. Electrical Workers, 367 U.S. 396 (1961), rev'g and remanding 108 U.S. App. D.C. 97, 280 F.2d 645 (1960). SCOTUS

Private industry responded to the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 with the development of an experimental power plant constructed under the auspices of a consortium of interested companies. It soon became apparent that profits from the private exploitation of atomic energy were uncertain and the accompanying risks substantial. See Green, Nuclear Power: [438 U.S. 59, 64] Risk, Liability, and Indemnity, 71 Mich. L. Rev. 479-481 (1973) (Green). SCOTUS

Benjamin Gatti?

(This is a reply to Simesa - I see an awful lot here focussed exclusively on Private Industry) Benjamin Gatti

A lot of verbiage, desperately trying to regain the point, but it doesn't change that key first sentence. DOE incidents are covered. Simesa 09:43, 24 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

And the nonsequitar award goes to ... The first sentence says nothing about DOE incidentse. Yes, given, DOE facilities are included. But there is no verbiage from the Supreme court to suggest that "insuring" the DOE was the prime purpose, the effect, or the problem presented to Congress as a precedent to the passage of the Act, and they have cited many contemporary reports in support of that position. I believe it's clear from the record that Price was invisioned and intended to provide a bridge of insurance to cover the experiential period after which insurance companies ought to have collected enough information and experience to calculate the risks of nuclear energy in the private sector. The fact is that period has passed, and includes Chernobly and private insurers are no closer to fully insuring nuclear energy than they were in 1954. Benjamin Gatti

Can we get a little structure please?

Latest comment: 19 years ago9 comments3 people in discussion

I really must object. This article is being modified all over the place without any kind of prior consensus or even raw discussion. I'm starting to get very frustrated with the way this is going, or not going. · Katefan0^(scribble) 04:14, 24 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Really Kate, I would suggest this is one of the more static pages on the wikipedia. I suggest it is not changing enough to keep the editors interested. I suggest we lift the no-edit ban entirely and let the wiki process run its course. One problem is that there is very slow participation on the consensus side. Simesa and I are trading substance, others, well, not so much. May I say as an aside - what a great time to be a Washington reporter. If I were you, and I say this with great appreciation and respect for your participation here, I think I would let this slip a bit and focus on the new and compelling issues boiling over in DC. What a ride! Benjamin Gatti

Those are some novel comments, but they don't change my request above. · Katefan0^(scribble) 04:26, 24 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Then I wish you well of your quest. Seriously - you must be reporting on what's happening in Washington, is it to much to ask where you publish? Benjamin Gatti

Yes. Ral? · Katefan0^(scribble) 05:08, 24 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Ral, this is just another attempt by Ben to declare mediation over. He tried that about a month ago. Look at alot of archive 5 for what I am talking about. We need some sort of conclusion here and him just backing out of this isn't it. --Woohookitty 06:30, 24 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Deal. Mediation shall continue so long as the mediator and every party to mediation participates at least once every second day. Once mediation lapses, it must be renegotiated. The perpetual censorship of drag-one's-feet mediation is unacceptable. Anyone who objects to these conditions can take it up with arbcom or use their majik powers to block me, but I will not voluntarily be silent unless we are making an attempt at progress. Benjamin Gatti

This ultimatum is obviously not okay. We're in mediation specifically because we need a mediator in order to help us make progress. As long as we don't have someone taking an active hand, we're going to go nowhere fast. · Katefan0^(scribble) 03:27, 25 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Mediation is voluntary. I most certainly can assert the conditions under which I voluntarily agree to participate. My conditions are reasonable. It's been forever. It's time, i suggest to move on - however, i'll agree to a few more days of serious effort, if there is a coalition of interested parties, otherwise, I intend to use the Supreme court's conclusions to assert that nuclear energy is dangerous and this is why, in 2005, Bush signed the no-fault taxpayer insurance for Republican investors. Benjamin Gatti

Benjamin, you're happy to do what you want. But I'd like to continue mediation. I am active, for what it's worth; now that I have a handle on this issue, I'm going to be a lot more active in the matter. Ral315 (talk) 07:10, 25 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Thanks Ral. How do we proceed from here? · Katefan0^(scribble) 15:32, 25 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

If Ben backs out, I'm putting this up for arby. I know they generally don't take content disputes, but I don't think we can let Ben get all he wants by just not being in the process. --Woohookitty 07:19, 25 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Certainly, I have not backed out. I am merely stating that I intend to interpret lack of participation as conclusory. If Mike wants to go to Arb, I intend to show good faith by participating in mediation, but I do not believe that mediation should amount to self-cencorship for 12 months. Benjamin Gatti

Self-censorship? Anyway. Yes Ral, how do you want us to go from here? --Woohookitty 16:04, 25 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

My revert tonight

Latest comment: 19 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

I reverted back to the consensus version of October 15th. Let's come up with a consensus and THEN change the article. Not sure why this is proving hard for people. --Woohookitty 06:46, 24 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

I applaud each of Uncle Ed's attempts, but agree with Woohookitty that we will have to do this the long way. And I agree with Katefan0 that ending Mediation precipitously would simply result in edit-warring.

I don't see either side budging on the Intro. I suggest we move on to "How the law works", which both sides agree is incomprehensible. Simesa 09:52, 24 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

basks in the applause Uncle Ed 02:29, 25 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Can we get a little substance please?- Is Nuclear Dangerous or not?

Latest comment: 19 years ago7 comments4 people in discussion

The Supreme court has indicated that the risk of a nuclear accident is the driving cause of Price Anderson. Our readers deserve to have this information. Simesa has argued that nuclear is not dangerous and that there is no risk, however, this argument has been to the Supreme Court and failed. There is a rule at law which says a party cannot argue both sides of the same issue when it suits their fancy. In that sense, the Nuclear Industry has lost the right to argue that nuclear is safe, when they went to the Supreme Court and argued that it is so dangerous that they deserve to have a special Constitution just for them. Accordingly, it is inappropriate for us to publish that which is inconsistent with facts which the industry has used to argue in favor of its narcotic subsidies.

Now then who can provide a non-trivial objection to the assertion that (according to the Industry in their case to the Supreme Court) nuclear IS dangerous, in spite of efforts to make it safe, and that Price Anderson is a continuing tribute to the inherent risks thereof? Benjamin Gatti

When did Simesa say that there was no risk in nuclear power? I don't remember that. I do remember you insisting for the longest time that he was a paid mouthpiece for the nuclear industry because he worked for the nuclear industry over a decade ago and then become a whistleblower. But I don't you remember him saying there was no risk in nuclear power. Besides, I think the possible danger of nuclear power belongs in the nuclear power article. Besides, if you read this article in full, you can gather that nuclear power is dangerous. I'm not sure we have to yell it from the mountaintop here. This section basically hints its dangerous.

"Although the AEC offered incentives to encourage investment, there remained in the path of the private nuclear power industry various problems - the risk of potentially vast liability in the event of a nuclear accident of a sizable magnitude being the major obstacle.Notwithstanding comprehensive testing and study, the uniqueness of this form of energy production made it impossible totally to rule out the risk of a major nuclear accident resulting in extensive damage."

In addition, the tone of the article is that this is essentially a handout to the nuclear industry so their asses are covered in case the inevitable accident will occur.

And then we have the issue that Simesa, kate and I have been solid on for awhile. This article's tone is anti-nuclear. We have a criticisms section that takes up more of the article than any other section. We do not have a section with reasons for the act. We have essentially a paragraph and then it's mixed in the first few paragraphs of the article. In other words, we have an article heavy on criticism already. If we make it any more critical, it's going to be basically an essay on how evil Price-Anderson is. --Woohookitty 13:14, 25 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

We're not here to critique the SC decision. From what I read of it, they don't call the industry dangerous. So it shouldn't be here. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 02:34, 27 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

This sounds like a promising avenue to go down. It looks like Price-Anderson came about because of the perception that nuclear power is dangerous.

As a student of physics (one year high school, one year college) I think there is something to this perception. A chunk of uranium the size of a grapefruit can destroy an entire metropolis: think New York City, not just Manhattan. And Chernobyl proved what can happen if you don't take elementary precautions (since when did the Soviets really care about not killing innocent people?!).

A lot of activists have claimed the US nuclear power can not be made safe, and that therefore it should be abolished. I believe this claim was connected ideologically with the "no nukes" movement which sought unilateral disarmament by the US during the Cold War, in the hopes that the USSR would gain a decisive advantage. I met organizers of the Clamshell Alliance in Boston and talked to various related others - this is not just me talking out of my hat here.

Then there are the opponents of US energy use in general, such as the environmental movement (which in turn connects to the Kyoto Protocol and global warming).

The whole thing is a tangled mess. It's no wonder that we haven't been able to resolve anything. There is too much under the surface (see elephant in the living room). Uncle Ed 17:11, 25 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Well, I certainly agree with that, and would go a step farther to say that some of the problem is that there is too much "truth-seeking" going on and not enough attention paid to just summarizing disputes. · Katefan0^(scribble) 19:25, 25 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Hard to argue with that point. Let's not forget that we entered mediation because some wanted to summarize the views of theose who believe nuclear is dangerous - including the SCOTUS, while using the authoritarian voice to represent the other side - including the assertions of the GOA regarding the motivations of Congress. So if there is going to be an argument for focus, I would suggest focussing on that question.

To Ed. Sure, its a tangled mess. I think more accurately, this, like Hubris peak and Evolution for that, is a subject which is scientific in its fundamentals, and yet so speculative as to preclude a scientific conclusion in our time. Kate has a point which is that we should summarize arguments. Really it's a point I have been making since forever. Assertions should be verifiable summarizations of identifyable sources. iE, "The SCOTUS held (here) that nuclear is more dangerous than all the insurance companies in the world combined could afford to insure." Benjamin Gatti

Wow. progress. I might have to give everyone a cookie for that. ;-) --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 03:25, 26 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

What I get from the SCOTUS decision is "The potential consequences of a worst-case nuclear accident are unknown, so that private insurance companies are unable to cover all of them." The word "danger" (as "dangerous") is used only once, in repeating a claim - SCOTUS never used it. The exact SCOTUS decision is:

We disagree. We view the congressional assurance of a $560 million fund for recovery, accompanied by an express statutory commitment, to "take whatever action is deemed necessary [438 U.S. 59, 91] and appropriate to protect the public from the consequences of" a nuclear accident, 42 U.S.C. 2210 (e) (1970 ed., Supp. V), to be a fair and reasonable substitute for the uncertain recovery of damages of this magnitude from a utility or component manufacturer, whose resources might well be exhausted at an early stage."

The closest SCOTUS comes to Ben's wording is:

Notwithstanding comprehensive testing and study, the uniqueness of this form of energy production made it impossible totally to rule out the risk of a major nuclear accident resulting in extensive damage. Private industry and the AEC were confident that such a disaster would not occur, but the very uniqueness of nuclear power meant that the possibility remained, and the potential liability dwarfed the ability of the industry and private insurance companies to absorb the risk.

My wording is significantly different from Ben's, but more accurate and closer to the SCOTUS decision.

Simesa 09:51, 26 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

So Ben, how does that equal "The Supreme Court said that nuclear power is dangerous"? --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 12:51, 26 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

It seems that both sides can find comfort and support in the SCOTUS opinion. What the SCOTUS are saying in their own special "greenspeak" is that the risk is enormous, the danger exists, the damage potential dwarfs private insurance companies (globally combined even) - but more importantly, it indicates and stresses that the purpose of Price is to "Subsidize the danger." - Which is discussed in far more column inches than is the politicaly correct nonesense "Protect the Public" - which in any case is a farce. In what way are the public "Protected" by encouraging power companies to install nuclear bomb on every street corner? Price does not "Increase" the public safety one iota. In truth is deccreases the public safety, but because it is a weapon technology, it decreases the safety of our enemies EVEN MORE. That is the definition of an arms race. Both sides in a race to the bottom. Benjamin Gatti

Shortened criticisms

Latest comment: 19 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion

Now the Act is tilted in favor of nuclear because the criticism section is the shortest. Balance is happily restored. Anyway the important criticism is the fact that victims of criminal action (can you say Enron) by nuclear power companies (like Enron) are not afforded the protections of state and federal (equity) laws.

In this country, a thief who injures himself robbing a bank has more protection than a three year old child exposed to a lifetime of cancers, deformities, and the threat of bearing horribly mutated children against the criminal negliegence of an energy CEO who sacrifices safety to pump up his 100 million dollar year-end bonus. Benjamin Gatti

I mean this in the kindest possible way, but how can anybody take your edits seriously when you add things like this with absolutely no acknowledgement that it is a clearly disputed statement of opinion? The absence of liability protections effectively encourages investors to take short-cuts on safety issues You know how NPOV policies work. So why do this? · Katefan0^(scribble) 01:58, 27 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Because he thinks he can slip one by us. Or he just doesn't care. From what he's said in the past, I'd take option B. He's acknowledged that he doesn't care what the other articles on Wikipedia say. He doesn't care how they are structured. He doesn't really care much about how neutral the article is. Again, these aren't attacks. I'm taking this from admissions he's dropped in from time to time during this entire process. And he keeps changing strategies. He's cooperative and then he's beligerent and then he's apologetic and then he's back to putting in whatever he wants. He makes edits without consensus. Threatens to back out of mediation whenever things are turning against his way. In the past, he's tried to game the system by quoting the NPOV policy but then leaving out important points. Again, none of these are personal attacks. It's in the record. To say it's difficult to make heads or tails of his intentions is an understatement. Ben, I kind of wish you'd just be consistent here. If you want to be beligerant and put in whatever you want, fine, but then don't act like you want to cooperate and then go right back to being beligerant. The thing is. We're assuming good faith. We have been since the start. It's just impossible to follow someone who continually reinvents his strategy and keeps altering behavior from one moment to the next. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 02:48, 27 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Ben, even among those exposed to Chernobyl's massive fallout, "there is little evidence of increased mortality, cancers or birth defects among them; and when such evidence is present, existence of a causal link to radioactive contamination is uncertain." If by chance there was an accident and a containment leak and someone didn't get evacuated and was as a result exposed, there's a huge fund for their treatment, Congressional backing, and according to the SC the Tucker Act behind that. U.S. utility managers are highly motivated not to sacrifice safety, for several reasons, and you never did produce any cites about such doings at Entergy, the second-biggest owner of nuclear units (Exelon, the largest with 20 reactors, did have one allegation against them when I searched). Median utility CEO total compensation in 2003, including bonus and long-term incentives, was under $4 million [1]. The facts just don't support your rhetoric. Simesa 03:21, 27 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Fact. Millions in those regions who were pregnant were encouraged to abort for fear of mutilations. That is prima facia evidence of a profound threat and substantial damages.

Fact: (Exelon, the largest with 20 reactors, did have one allegation against them when I searched).

Fact: Nuclear energy companies openly discourage public disclosure of safety violations by - among other things beating witnesses within an inch of their life.

Fact: A Burglar can sue his/her victim for negligence, but the innocent victim of a criminal nuclear incident is denied access to the liability protections of our "unjustice" system. Benjamin Gatti

Is there any non-trivial objection to citing the Supreme Courts position that all the kings horses and all the kings men couldn't insure the nuclear industry from even a single nuclear accident? Benjamin Gatti

Is there any non-trivial objection to making Ben stick to the point and not continually go off on tangents? This article is NOT about whether or not nuclear power is dangerous. It's about a law that was passed over 50 years ago, what that law says, how the process it sets works, what the criticisms are of it, etc, etc. It's not about whether or not nuclear power is dangerous. We have an entire article on nuclear power. That's where stuff like your facts belong. This is about the Price-Anderson law. Period. So quit making it something it's not please. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 04:47, 27 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Reverts

Latest comment: 19 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

Ral, I'm not trying to do your job for ya, but I just reverted to the last consensus version. Again, I thought the whole point of mediation was to decide on a consensus version and *then* change the article to fit the consensus version. Ral, should we protect the article again? Frankly, I'm going to keep reverting back to the consensus version until we come up with a new consensus version. I thought that was the point of mediation. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 02:51, 27 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Ral, if we protect every article on the wiki which experiences an excess of 1 revert per week, we could rename the site CNN. No one yet has violated the 3RR rule, or even the 1RR "rule". Mike is demonstrating the lost art of overreaction. Kudo's M. Benjamin Gatti

No. See Ben, the point of mediation is to come up with consensus versions, i.e. versions that everyone is happy with. It is not to keep making changes when you feel like it. If that was the rule, we wouldn't have mediation since the whole point is to give and take so we can come to a consensus.

What's annoying me is that it took me about 6 attempts to get this back reverted to the October 24th version. It's done now. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 04:00, 27 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

The point of this mediation (as it appears on the record) was to determine whether or not the wiki itself should presume infalible knowledge of Congress' "intentions" given an assertion of same by the GAO. Care to resolve the point Ral? The rest is just Kabisting while we wait for the jury to come back with the verdict. Benjamin Gatti

Um no. The point of this mediation was to come up with a version of this article that we can all be happy about. I really wish you'd quit trying to change the rules of the mediation. It's quite annoying. It's gaming the system. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 04:44, 27 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Protected for now. I'll discuss it in a new section in a few minutes. Ral315 (talk) 04:47, 27 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Protected.

Latest comment: 19 years ago5 comments2 people in discussion

Some stats to consider (commenting on size, not substance)

Introduction: 77 words

A pretty good length, I think. Ral315 (talk)

Background: 367 words

It could be longer, but doesn't need to be if it explains the act fully. Ral315 (talk)

How the law works: 178 words

Good length. Ral315 (talk)

Criticisms: 553 words

Obviously, this is a problem for many (all?) of you. If we could boil this down to about 300 words, that would be great. Ral315 (talk)

I've set up a temp page for editing: Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act/Temp. As this is a page invisible to the public, feel free to make sweeping changes. But note that the ONE-REVERT RULE is still in effect there. The main article will be unprotected when I feel that we've hit a consensus, or everyone involved wants it unprotected. Ral315 (talk) 05:06, 27 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Another note...refer to your edits here with the "permanent link" from the toolbar so that we can all see your particular revision. Thanks :) Ral315 (talk) 05:08, 27 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

This is the 2nd go at trying it this way. Or is it the 3rd? :) But let's hope it's successful or else I'm going to run out of WikiAdvil. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 05:12, 27 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Were you counting my recent version wherein the criiticism section was shortened? The criticism section is not long because of the "critics" it has been bloated by those trying to bury the ugliest truths in a mound of platitudes. Benjamin Gatti

I think it's an important part of Wiki policy that protected pages get listed in that section for protected pages - it tends to bring in additional points of view which may be valuable in resolving the issue. Benjamin Gatti

Amazing. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 05:46, 27 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Remember: You need to back up major changes with reasoning. Ral315 (talk) 14:36, 27 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

How the law works

Latest comment: 19 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Okay, I made a first proposed change. Simesa 11:40, 27 October 2005 (UTC)Reply

Calling Spade

Price - removes "Public Protections" by suspending laws truly intended to protect the public from damgerous activities of others. Benjamin Gatti

Objection to Censorship

Latest comment: 19 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

"Protecting" a page on account of 1 to 2 edits a week amounts to censorship. Regardless of the subject or any other thing - it is antithetical to the spirit of wikipedia, and not supported by any published policy. I must therefore object. For comparison, the GWBush page is vandalized about twice a second, but remains open for business nonetheless. A double standard here can only be explained by bias or elitism, and the use of censorship to effect either of those is inconsistent with cooperative nature of wikipedia.. Benjamin Gatti

Simple vandalism can be reverted easily. This is a content dispute, and I'm using the protection not to censor anyone, but rather to encourage open discussion and editing on the temp page. Ral315 (talk) 14:32, 27 October 2005 (UTC)Reply