Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles

See also the old discussion of the name order in the article title.

Long vowels

Long vowels: I think the preferred practice at least according to people who teach Japanese to English-speaking students is to mark long vowels with a macron, or, if that is typographically impossible, with a circumflex. The practice I use when I am lazy is just type two vowels, like in kana. Maybe two vowels is the way to go, it makes searching easier. We already have such titles as shoujo. - user:tappel

I think the convention used on Everything2 has been found very workable in practice: no long vowels ever in article titles, and macrons used in the content itself. Kana spelling is very confusing for the uninitiated, and two vowels make searching more difficult (is the average tourist really going to Toukyou instead of Tokyo?) Jpatokal 03:19, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Since there have been no objections I've now added the above as policy. This is pretty much the Wikipedia de facto standard anyway, except a few oddballs like shoujo (cursed otaku). Jpatokal 06:31, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hiragana and katakana

Where are the hiragana (ひらがな) characters? These are used more than katakana (カタカナ), which are the only demonstrated set. Katakana is used to write foreign words, onomatopoeic words, or biological names, but for most else it's supposed to be hiragana. I have a chart of kana that I've placed somewhere. When I can dig it up, I'll put up a link to it, for anyone interested. - coldacid 20:00 -0500 2004-03-24

The characters themselves are in the charts for Hiragana and Katakana, and the romanization is given in the Hepburn charts. — Gdr 09:06 2004-04-01

Multiple romanizations?

I don't see what the problem is by including alternate romanizations in Japanese articles. WhisperToMe 23:56, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

What's the added value? Kunrei is almost never used by non-Japanese, and Nipponshiki is almost never used by anybody. 99.9% of the time Hepburn is sufficient to figure out the kana. IMHO it just adds clutter to the article. Jpatokal 00:42, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

This discussion was moved here from Wikipedia talk: naming conventions (Japanese)

For the page, I added that the Kunrei and Nippon-shiki of a word should be in parenthenses after the Hepburn word in the opening paragraph. WhisperToMe 05:13, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I think it is rather cluttering. Is it really imporant to show every possible spellings for each Japan-related article? I expect readers are more interested in the content than names. Besides, most people don't know well (including me) about a difference in romanization methods. I would say,

Anglicized name (kanji; romaji) is enough. Those ones like Hagi. -- Taku 05:19, Mar 29, 2004 (UTC)

I completely agree, it's cluttering. WhisperToMe, it looks like you're on a minor rampage in this area (for example, Chuo-ku), and while we appreciate your enthusiasm, it really isn't necessary. - - Paul Richter 04:53, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. It's best to stick to Hepburn because it gives the best indication of pronunciation to English speakers. People who care about the other kinds of rōmaji know enough to work it out for themselves. I removed some of the more annoying examples of multiple rōmaji and heavily edited Wikipedia:Manual of Style for Japan-related articles — Gdr 18:59, 2004-03-30

Just a reminder - its common practice to include alternate spellings of names, e.g. Kabul. Even if they are seldom used, they still should be used. It is not about figuring out the kana - It is about informing people on other ways names can be spelled. I would never have known that Huzi in Nippon-shiki is also Fuji in Hepburn.

Even then, Wikipedia would still sticking to Hepburn, as Hepburn names are ALWAYS used as title names, and throughout the body. However, the articles should still have information on what the names are under different romanization systems when they are different from the Hepburn. WhisperToMe 00:50, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

WTM, it's common practice to include common alternate spellings in English, and I think your example Kabul's "Käbool" is pretty borderline...

However, I note that according to your user bio you don't actually speak Japanese, and you've made several edits (notably the "Ousaka" case) that seem to back this up. How many people are there on this planet who recognize "Huzi" but not "Fuji"? Did you know that Nipponsiki has been obsolete since the 1800s? Jpatokal 01:27, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I concur with everyone else on this issue. Stop cramming articles with useless information. Anyone who calls Mount Fuji "Huzisan" is smoking some very potent ganja. Hepburn is more or less standard nowadays: we don't need to be including alternate romanizations unless they're very common. ("Oosaka" might be such a case. "Tookyoo" is definitely not.) -- Sekicho 01:36, Apr 1, 2004 (UTC)

Jpatokal, Nipponshiki was invented in the late 1800's, after Hepburn did. Instead of it being "outdated", it just didn't catch on.

For some reason, "Hukuoka" is used commonly on the internet. Hukuoka is JSL, Nippon-shiki, and Kunrei, as is "Huzi".

Fukuoka - 1,480,000 Hukuoka - 15,000

But as they aren't common, they should not be in the lead paragraph, and shouldn't be in every single article.

WhisperToMe 08:12, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Google counts:

fujisan 100,000+ huzisan 173

Osaka 440,000 Oosaka 30,000 Ousaka 4,500 Ôsaka 3,900 &#332saka 494

Tokyo 15,600,000 Tôkyô 15,800 Toukyou 13,300 Tōkyō 1,970 Tookyoo 786.

Who is the readership and how is are multiple romanizations useful to them? The readership of en.wikipedia.org is primarily English speakers who neither know nor care about the different systems of Japanese romanization. The point of giving rōmaji is to indicate the Japanese pronunciation when it isn't obvious from the English spelling. — Gdr 09:17 2004-04-01

I supposedly know Japanese, having a degree in it (don't ask me to translate anything, I'm out of practice), and I would agree that we don't need every single possible transliteration. Only the most common ones should be included. Fujisan, yes. Huzisan, no. I have never, ever seen this, not in any textbook I used, nor ever spoken in class. I don't even see why "Tookyoo" should be included; yes, it is an accurate transliteration, but it's simply not used much. However, I CAN see a better case for Tookyoo than for Huzisan. Same deal for "Hirosima" - Unnecessary. Yes, I know some romanizations use "si" instead of "shi" and I hate them. ;) Interesting, most of the google results I see for Hirosima are foreign language, and thus, not relevant for the English language wikipedia. --Golbez 08:21, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Golbez, Kunrei is used in Japanese textbooks. But since you never saw it in a textbook, you must not be from Japan. WhisperToMe 08:31, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I have an entire stack of Japanese high school textbooks on my bookshelf. I have never seen a single Kunrei romanization in any of them. In fact, during the entire time I lived in Japan, I only recall seeing Kunrei once or twice. 99 percent of romanized Japanese is Hepburn, and most of the remainder is used in a non-English context. I'm sure that anyone else who has actually lived in Japan can corroborate this claim. WhisperToMe, stop acting like an expert in this field. You aren't and it's beginning to show. -- Sekicho 14:23, Apr 3, 2004 (UTC)

The article Kunrei-shiki says... "It is the system officially sanctioned by the Japanese ministry of education, although it is much less widespread in use than Hepburn romanization, and is mostly used within Japanese schools."

So... what happened? WhisperToMe 05:10, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

No, I'm not. Are you? And is that relevant? Now, I don't mind you wasting your time making countless redirects, apart from it cluttering up "recent changes", or even wasting your time adding alternate romanizations to every single Japanese page. Your time, not mine. I'm just offering my two cents in saying that I think a good portion of these changes are, in fact, a waste of time. But, again, your time, and it's not like the namespace will ever be needed for "Tyuuoo-ku, Tookyoo" will be used for anything but this redirect. However, I must challenge the wisdom of one minor page needing... eleven redirects, most of them not major spellings. --Golbez 08:36, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm an American. Believe me, Golbez, I redirect uncommon/various spellings all the time. Just look at Umm al-Qaiwain and Qin Shi Huangdi. WhisperToMe 08:39, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm American too. That's a lot of redirects. Your time, not mine, and perhaps the redirects are necessary. But, when you start putting the stuff into the actual articles, then it gets a little iffy. Why don't you list all the possible transliterations of Umm al-Qaiwain on its page, like you do for Osaka? --Golbez 08:44, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I might get to that sometime. It was done for Muammar al-Qaddafi. WhisperToMe 08:47, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Links to Hepburn and Japanese

Is it really necessary to have a link to Hepburn from every page that uses this style of romanization? It is necessary to have a link to Japanese next to every word written in Japanese? For example, is this:

In Japanese, rōmaji (Hepburn) (Japanese: ローマ字 "Roman characters") broadly refers to the Roman alphabet.

really better than this?

In Japanese, rōmaji (ローマ字 "Roman characters") broadly refers to the Roman alphabet.

The former seems to have a lot of unnecessary duplication. It would be nice if we could agree a consensus here. Gdr 15:35, 2004 Apr 3 (UTC)

Syllabic n

I have a problem with point 3 in the Romanization section:

"Syllabic n ン followed by b, m; or p is written m."

This is not only not standard practice, it's also confusing and misleading. The syllable "n" exists in Japanese; there's no reason to transcribe it as "m". Exploding Boy 01:59, Apr 1, 2004 (UTC)

Also, what has happened to "Naming conventions Japanese"? The link just redirects to this page and there's nothing on it here. As far as I recall no consensus was ever reached on the issue either. Exploding Boy 02:01, Apr 1, 2004 (UTC)

I rescued the material about given name/family name ordering and put it on this page. The only other material was about names of Emperors, about which I know nothing, so that's still waiting for a knowledgeable person to add it. Gdr 15:35, 2004 Apr 3 (UTC)

It's still there if you look at the page history. I added a link at the top of this page. -- Taku 02:08, Apr 1, 2004 (UTC)

The 'm' romanization is not standard, but it's in widespread use.

Here's what Google returns:

Edogawa Ranpo:748 vs. Edogawa Rampo: 1630

Shinbashi: 17000 vs. Shimbashi 14600

Jinbocho 2420 vs. Jimbocho 3170

... and most importantly,

Monbusho 21,600 vs. Mombusho 1900

And JR uses it: Shimbashi, Nihombashi, etc. - - Paul Richter 02:31, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Actually using "m" is a part of standard Hepburn romanization, and the reason for using it is simply that 新聞 is pronounced "shimbun". However, revised Hepburn (adopted by the Library of Congress among others) uses "n" in all cases.

Personally, I lean towards the revised style, but there are some words where "m" is pretty well entrenched or used in the official romanization, eg. Asahi Shimbun, Namba Station. Jpatokal 03:53, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm neutral about this; m gives the best indication of pronunciation but n isn't so bad.— Gdr 09:21 2004-04-01

Maybe the right thing to do is to leave this open, with a recommendation to use whatever is most common in use. Gdr 15:50, 2004 Apr 2 (UTC)

Particles

Revth, you edited Japanese grammar changing e to he and o to wo. But Wikipedia:Manual of Style for Japan-related articles says to use e and o. Can we come to an agreement? Gdr 15:50, 2004 Apr 2 (UTC)