Talk:African Americans
Archived
White South Africans: Archived
Several past discussions on Talk:African American about White South Africans and whether the label "African American" would apply to them are now archived at Talk:African American/Archive:White South Africans. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:50, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
Caribbean/West Indies: Archived
Several past discussions on Talk:African American about people in the West Indies, or about people in the U.S. of African ancestry via the West Indies, including (but not limited to) whether the label "African American" would apply to them are now archived at Talk:African American/Archive:West Indies -- Jmabel | Talk 07:48, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
Crime, punishment, social problems, and bigotry: Archived
I'm trying to continue to group related topics together. I've archived several past discussions on Talk:African American, mostly related to crime, punishment, social problems, and bigotry. Lacking a good name, I'm just calling this archive Talk:African American/Archive 1—if someone has a name that is both mnemonic and neutral, a move might be in order. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:09, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
Further archive
The rest of this seems not to categorize easily. There are a few stray specific questions and answers—usually a paragraph or two—and reams of discussion on whether "African American" is the right term. I've made the arbitrary decision to try to archive the portions of this that haven't had comments added in a few months. I am placing these at Talk:African American/Archive 2. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:55, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC) Further archives:
Nomenclature section
There have been several recent edits to the "nomenclature" section. Some of them are probably OK, others seem wrong to me. No need to discuss what seems right; here are my issues:
- "The term African American has only been used in popular speech since the late eighties…" - I presume this is the 1980s (Jesse Jackson, mentioned later in the sentence) wasn't around in the 1880s), but I don't think it's true. I'm pretty sure I remember hearing it used quite a bit as early as about 1970, although I'll say quite honestly that I can't remember when it became more common to hear "African American" than "Afro-American". Anyway, it's very hard to document popular speech as against printed usage or even recorded speech. I'm not sure how one could ever verify this, unless it's with survey data on preferred terms. While I suspect that one could find a survey on the most preferred term to refer to an ethnic or racial group, it's probably very hard to find such data on what others have made it into popular speech. If we want to talk about when it came into usage, I suggest that we should stick to what can be documented.
- "…as well-known figures like Jesse Jackson pressed for the adoption of a term that was more meaningful than an inaccurate color and also had some cultural connotations, like the popular ethnic labels Irish-American or Polish-American..." Is there any evidence of Jesse Jackson specifically pushing this particular usage? I don't particularly recall him doing so in any way more systematic than simpy using it. "…had some cultural connotations…" seems vague and unverifiable. (The analogy to "Irish-American", "Polish-American", etc. is undoubtedly part of what made the term stick, but again it would be good to find some citation for that, as well.)
- "African American has been criticized because of its imprecise cultural and geographic meaning." "…has been criticized…" are definitely weasel words. Either we can cite some criticism (and it would be very relevant from what quarter that criticism came: very different if it came from a Black Nationalist or a Midwestern Republican white guy).
- "The term African American as originally advocated…": "advocated"? By whom? The issue isn't how the term was advocated, it's how it is used, and, indeed, it "refers to only those descended from a small number of black colonial indentured servants and the estimated 10 to 11 million Africans who arrived in the U.S. as slaves," etc. I think the phrase as originally advocated is a liability here.
Jmabel | Talk 06:26, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
"The term does not include white, Indian or Arab immigrants from the African continent, as they are not generally considered 'Africans' by English-speaking people.".
The above phrase seems plain POV and only relevant within the common useage of "African American" within the USA. British, Australians, Canadians, South Africans and the rest of the English speaking World use the term "African" as a geographical identifier and not as a racial label. Anyone born, raised and holding nationality status within a nation of Africa would be considered 'African'. I recommend removing the end of the sentence that states: "as they are not generally considered 'Africans' by English-speaking people." I was going to suggest otherwise rewording this to something like: "as they are not generally considered 'Africans' by Americans." but, even this does not reflect real World useage of the term "Africans".
Dbnull 5:01pm 13th Dec 2005
- I'm with you: just drop the phrase "as they are not generally considered 'Africans' by English-speaking people." The first half of the sentence is accurate. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:45, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Getting this article featured.
This article is almost ready to be nominated as a featured article. The three things I see it needing before then are
- A longer and more detailed list of references and external links
- More images
- A longer introductory paragraph that sums up the major points of the article.
If we get these done, I'd say it's ready. – Quadell (talk) (sleuth) 21:17, July 22, 2005 (UTC)
Comment:
To my knowledge, the term african-american originated around the time of the founding of the organization of african american unity, established by malcolm x, el hajj malik el shabazz. according to his own words, the organization was to be patterned letter to letter, from the organization of african unity. now when the oaau was established in 1964, the term afican american american denoted a political term, including all dscendants of african slaves broght to the new world, including northern, central, southern america, as well as the carribean. even to this day certain africans of a more clarified political thought consider the term african american to represent this more inclusive definition.
i have never came across this particular page in wikipedia speaking on the topics of african-americans, the african diaspora, or the Maafa (swahili term for great tragedy, to describe slave trade that brought africans to america; many african-americans reer to themselves as survivors of the maafa.)
i think that asides from mentioning jesse jackson as the individual popularizing the term,'african american', (a grave historical error indeed), the article is educational,fair,and quite good.
references include: malcolm x speaks, any works on the maafa (especially from the afrocentric school of molefi asante), and the all african peoples revolutionary (one of their economists wrote a whole geopolitical piece on the term african american)
for fairness and objectivity i include the following comments. if you think these comments are helpful to finalizing the article, very well(i could more accurately give citations if you email me at eastside360@yahoo.com)
otherwise forgive me taking up your time.
sincerely, ramal lamar
gymnastics
The term does not include white, Indian or Arab immigrants from the African continent, and they are not considered Africans on the continent.
- Boy, it's fascinating to watch the convoluted mental gymnastics invoked to justify the common usage of this term. As the statement stands, it is patently false. (An "African", by several dictionary definitions, is simply a "native or inhabitant of Africa".) I believe what you mean to say is that they are not considered to be indigenous Africans. But, by the same logic, it would be wrong for African Americans to consider themselves to be American, because they are not, after all, indigenous to North America. And of course, there are indigenous Africans who are not "black" (e.g. Berbers), so their specific excision from what is considered "African" only reveals the political intent. You can't have your indigenous cake and eat it, too. Revolver 19:00, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
- At the risk of feeding a troll: usage of a term is not necessarily identical to its etymology. As far as I can tell, the "gymnastics" are here because a bunch of either dense, condescending, or outright racist white people wish to deny African Americans the right to determine their own designation, so it's been impossible to keep this simple. This is just like the fact that "Lithuanian American" doesn't include me as a descendant of Lithuanian Jews, and "Norwegian American" doesn't include my cousin who happens to have been born in Norway while her parents were there on her dad's Fulbright scholarship. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:16, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
Nomenclature
'The term does not include white , Indian , or Arab immigrants from the African continent , and they are not considered Africans on the continent .'
What is the evidence for this statement?
These people are all considered as Africans in the demographics section of the Wikipedia article on Africa. Wikipedia is , therefore ,contradicting itself.
Morocco , Algeria , Tunisia , Libya , and Egypt are all African nations with Arabic populations . More than one hundred million North Africans are denied being recognised as Africans by whom?
The use of the term African American seems to be restricted to people of West African origin . Perhaps the term West-African American would be more appropriate . As it stands , the term African American is promoting ignorance of the ethnic diversity of the African continent.
--213.122.31.235 11:46, 30 August 2005 (UTC)ian29cent
- We are writing an encyclopedia, not a manifesto. We are not here to judge what would be better terminology. We are here to describe the terminology actually used in the world. -- Jmabel | Talk 16:01, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
"Blacks from other countries such as Nigeria, Haiti or Cuba are most commonly referred to by their nation of origin and not African American. African American means the descendants of slaves brought to America in 1619." The veracity of these sentences is debatable--where are the sources for this assertion other than the author's opinion? Kemet 29 Nov 2005
Separate note
There is also a new term, "Afrimerican", created by an Afrimerican, and introduced in 1989 in reaction to the various terms, and levels of ambiguity of terms used to describe and define the race/ethnic group, and it is gaining acceptance, popularity, and more widespread use among Negroid and non-Negroid people in America, Germany, and other countries.
Just saw this added by an anon under "Nomenclature." My question is "huh?"
— <TALKJNDRLINETALK> 18:38, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
- Not the first time this has appeared, presumably the same anon. As I said whe reverting it about 10 days ago, "The less than 700 Google hits on "Afrimerican" (about half to a musical group) cast enormous doubt on the claim that any significant number of "African-American people... are adopting a new term..." -- Jmabel | Talk 04:46, September 8, 2005 (UTC)
By the time white people, and white owned, or white run institutions know what's going on in the Afrimerican communities, the whatever "it" is, has usually been dissed, and dismissed as is done here in favor of what's acceptable to, and given the race by whites, and when said whatever does gain wider acceptance, and exposure, it's only given such after whites have found a way to steal it, and or make a profit from it, or can find a social and/or moral negative to attatch it to to poison it's value,and to falsely validate their negative racial profiling and stereotypecasting of the race, and while this act is not prevalent everywhere, it's rampant in the United States, and sadly because the power and influence this country exerts worldwide, the world is influenced and engages same, or a similar attitude about or toward Afrimericans per a subtle brainwashing,... conditioning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.138.96.68 (talk • contribs) 16 Oct 2005 (UTC)
Large removal
This anonymous edit removed quite a bit of material, mostly about mixed race people. I'm not entirely sure of the merits of the material that was removed, so I'm not restoring, but others may want to look more closely. Among the material removed was quite a bit about Native American ancestry and a passage about "passing for white". -- Jmabel | Talk 15:57, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
- I put some of it back in under ethnicity but I'm not sure I like the way it is written. --Gbleem 21:37, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
My definition of African -American
African American: A person born in America who's indigenous ethnic origins are in Africa, I believe that this definition is appropriate since i dont know specifically what area in Africa my ancestors are from ,due to the fact that poor records were kept of the enslaved african people,though i do believe that I am part KHWE or "bushmen",do to my physical features of course today there are methods to genetically test specifically what area of the world your peoples originate (which i plan to take,then i can say im KHWE as opposed to just african)now if u have a white person who can take one of these test and the results and say the majority of their genetic material points toward african heritage and theyre born in america, then by all means you are an african - american, however if u move a polish community to the heart of the congo and they breed only with the polish there for 400 yrs there is no way in hell they would ever become indigenous africans! i mean what line of logic would lead anyone to believe such rediculous tripe?! black people in america are of african origin, as much as an irish american proudly displays their heritage and italians and welsh or chinese we also as african people are proud of our origins and history,why wouldnt we be ?we are the oldest people,discovered fire,created art,language,religion,and tools, we colonized europe, asia, and the americas and cultivated humanity IN AFRICA for the first 225000 yrs of the 275000 years modern man has existed on earth. So why would i want to be fool enough and deny my proud african heritage,or my american heritage for that matter? maybe a better question is why would anyone want me to deny my heritage? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.38.73 (talk • contribs) 31 Aug 2005 (UTC)
Ancestry
Recently removed, with a complaint about lack of citation, but with the comment "I believe you.": "Virtually all of them also have some European ancestry, and/or Native American ancestry."
Usually, if you think a statement is accurate but uncited, you don't start by deleting. You ask for citation, or look for it yourself.
This, from www.ancestrybydna.com, asserts that "the average African American has considerable European ancestry (actually, it’s 19.6%)", which tends to suggest that the comment was not way off base.
Does someone else have something more solid on this? -- Jmabel | Talk 07:54, September 4, 2005 (UTC)
- This doesn't need an obscure citation, and there won't be a mainstream one for a while. I do believe you, but to believe is not to claim for fact. (Tee-hee, but God!) --VKokielov 06:03, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
whether you believe it or you don't, it doesn't make it any less of a fact nor does sufficient or lack of documentation. there are some things that are just apparent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.94.66.188 (talk • contribs) 19 Sept 2005 (UTC)
Links
It doesn't seem to me like Neo-Black.com deserves two links, bolded, in a separate section. I'm not even sure it deserves one link. But I leave it to someone who has been more actively working on this article to actually make the call. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:29, September 11, 2005 (UTC)
- And I see that the section keeps growing. Again, just noting that someone may want to keep more of an eye on this: I can imagine it turning into a link farm. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:32, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
A plea for references
Please, please add references to this (apparently well written) article supporting its statements. Remember that the criterion for inclusion in Wikipedia is not truth, but verifiability—it greatly weakens the article that we cannot source its facts and (especially) interpretations thereof. See also Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Cite sources. —Steven G. Johnson 23:15, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
1964
There are no "African Americans" because there is no nation named Africa America. In 1964, U. S. Presidential candidate Barry M. Goldwater claimed that (if elected) he would assign Negroes to a land of their own out west where the State of Oregon is located. Thomas Jefferson had advocated that Negroes be assigned to "the Pacific coast" (where Oregon and the State of Washington were created). In 1964, people in the United States began to say that Presidential candidate Barry M. Goldwater was crazy. He had been adored for ten years, but he lost his attractiveness after he promised that (if elected) he would, in his words, "separate the races."
The creation of "African Americans" resulted from the determination of the American landowners to re-name their slaves. Generally, Presidential candidate Barry M. Goldwater upset the caucasoid people who own the United States. The landowners still have not recovered from shock.
There are Indonesians because there is a nation called Indonesia. There are Lithuanians because there is a nation called Lithuania. There are Australians because there is a nation called Australia. There are no African Americans because there is no nation called Africa America. Colored people in the United States live in dilapidated buildings called slums. BoxOurEars 11:43, 2 October 2005 (UTC) The only edit by this user.
- What a load. Don't waste our time with this ridiculous trollop. If you're not a troll, you're certainly behaving like one. "Only edit"? You're clearly not serious. And this is not amusing. deeceevoice 07:07, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
- I am not attempting to "amuse" people. U. S. Senator Barry M. Goldwater was the most widely admired U. S. Senator of the 1950s, which is the reason why he became the Republican candidate for President in 1964. I was already an adult when the Civil Rights Act of 1957 was being discussed, so these submissions to Wikipedia are based on my memory, not on what some other person has told me. I observed how the landowners created "reverse discrimination."
- U. S. Senator Barry M. Goldwater went from being a wise man to being an ogre. The caucasoid land-owning people in the United States cited the fact that he was a Ham radio hobbyist and, therefore, a quirky person who kept awake at night talking on his long-distance radio to other strange people. They attacked him after 1964 for several years. Many of his admirers became his detractors. He never came close to recovering his former nation-wide adulation.
- The voters really wanted him to be a "Ron" Reagan sort who would never ship the Negroes off. "Ron" Reagan told the colored people to "work your way out of poverty." People gushed all over "Ron" Reagan, claiming that he was a superior President, even suggesting that his image ought to be carved into Mount Rushmore.BoxOurEars 13:05, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
- I am likely as old as you are, so there's no need to recount "ancient history." The hawkish Barry Goldwater, as well as the infamously masterful Democratic TV spot featuring the mushroom cloud flat-out scared a lot of people sh*tless -- and not just whites -- which is why he lost the election so resoundingly.
- Your initial assumption is entirely bogus. White people accepted the term "African American" only after black people insisted we were no longer "Negroes." And, yes, we do exist.
- "African-American" is in the tradition of what used to be called "hyphenated Americans": Italian-Americans, Lithuanian-Americans, Irish-Americans, Chinese-Americans, Polish-Americans, etc. One of the most fundamental aspects of human organization is group membership -- family, clan, ethnicity, community, nation. It is not enough to see oneself as part of the broad range of humanity. There is a desire for smaller group identifications, which is played out again and again throughout history. At some level, people always group or characterize themselves by shared history, language and other aspects of culture, physical attributes, etc. By virtue of the impulses which gave rise to nation-states, most nations, historically, certainly, provided a general framework for demographic homogeneity on some level (shared history, culture, language), but still being comprised of smaller, ethnic communities with similarly shared characteristics. Still, in the most stable nations, the larger national identity generally prevails. When it does not, there are usually deep-rooted divisions, conflict and sometimes violence involved. There were/are Angles and Saxons, Goths and Visigoths, Croatians and Serbs (in Bosnia), Basques (in Spain), Catholics and Protestants (in Northern Ireland), Tutsis and Hutus (in Rwanda), etc. No one would argue, as you have, that there is no such thing as a Tutsi because there is no "Tutsiland." Such an argument is ridiculous on its face. A nation-state is merely a manifestation of human group identity organized, politicized, militarized and reified -- and certainly not proof of the existence/legitimacy of that identity.
- The U.S. has a history, perhaps, unlike any other nation on earth in that its most defining characteristic demographically is not its homogeneity, but its diversity. It is largely a nation of immigrants. The initial immigrants came from all over Europe. Defining themselves as simply "American" has never been sufficient; the universe of membership in the club, so to speak, is too broad, too disparate, too different, too foreign in which to be entirely comfortable among such a motley agglomeration. There is a need to belong, to fit in, yes, but into a smaller, more manageable, more familiar space. While it is easy to plege allegiance to a flag and a nation on one level, on an everyday level of human interaction -- dining (foodways), conversing (language), fraternizing (all elements of culture) -- one's first contacts and often first preferences are characterized by homogeneity. Sameness. And it is this sameness which forms the basis for primary group identity (beyond smaller levels of organization, such as the smallest, which is family). And certainly the indigenous peoples of the land for a very long time resisted the label "American" and also choose to identify themselves by Indian nation/tribe and federation. Would you say there is no such thing as a Native American because there is no NativeAmericaland? Or Cado, because there is no Cadoland? Cherokee because there is no Cherokeeland?
- Thus, many people became "hyphenated Americans." Whites still refer to themselves by those hyphenated group identifiers. It is commonplace. It speaks of shared values, shared history, shared language, shared culture, often shared physical characteristics (broadly speaking), and a common geographic point of origin -- defined by nation-state. Not only that, it is common in places like Philly and Chicago and Baltimore and other places where there are large numbers of particularly working-class, urban ethnic whites for, say, Italian-Americans whose families have been here for generations to refer to themselves as simply "Italian" -- no "American" whatsoever; just "Italian."
- African-Americans, of course, (and I'm speaking here of the term used in its original and most limited context) are not immigrants, but descendants of slaves. However, we share the same impulses, the same tendencies when it comes to group identification. Historically, however, we were called all sorts of names not of our choosing. We decided, as we had often done in the past over the centuries, to rename ourselves -- one of the classic steps in the process of self-identification and self-determination/empowerment. This time, however, it was a term of our choosing. "Negro" had acquired too much baggage. We rejected that term of our former masters and of modern-day segregators and discriminators as we had rejected "nigger", "darky", "coon", "colored" -- you name it.
- "Black" generally was acceptable, but a growing social and political consciousness demanded an association with our homeland, as well. Further, it was precisely in keeping with the broader American custom. Because of the circumstances of our arrival in America, however, identification with particular nation-states was problematic, if not impossible -- so Africa would suffice. We became "African-Americans."
- And that is the real history of the term. We don't need anyone's permission to call us what we call ourselves, and the opinions of outsiders to the group matter not one whit. So, don't waste your time. There is no debate. The term is here to stay -- unless and until we decide to change it. deeceevoice 10:57, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Persians??
People of caucasoid origin or appearance, including whites, Persians, Indians, and Arabs, are traditionally not considered African American though they or their ancestors may have emigrated from the African continent after uncountable generations of residence.
Given that there are no particularly significant number of Persians in Africa, why are Persians listed here? Indians I understand, because of the small merchants in former British colonies. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:02, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
- Given the lack of response in about 24 hours, I am removing. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:53, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
- I'm not sure, but I think the editor was saying that all people came from Africa originally. If so, the point could be better made elsewhere. – Quadell (talk) 13:56, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Neutrality?
As an 5th generation African-American, I find this page to show signs of racism. I'd also like to see quotes from contemporary African-American scholars (Kanye West, Rev. Al Sharpton).
Thanks. Reparaizins 20:43, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
I hadn't been aware that either was a scholar, but that question and the matter of quotes aside, what signs of racism do you see here? -- Hoary 22:53, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
The contemporary issues needs to be changed and updated; there is a bit more to African American life than the negative, trite generalizations that infect this section. Kemet 15 Nov 2005
Poetry lounge?
I leave it to someone African American to make the ultimate determination on online community links on this page, but the "Mr. Africa Poetry Lounge" strikes me as a pretty dubious inclusion. I can't think of comparable links for other ethnicities. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:36, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
I see now that Alabamaboy has removed the exact same link, added by the same person at African American literature. I now definitely believe this to be linkspam. I recommend deletion. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:36, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
The recently added Cocoa Lounge Forum strikes me the same way. This is turning into a link farm. I believe these should all be removed, but, again, I believe that someone of the ethnicity in question should do the removing. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:48, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
- While I'm not "of the ethnicity in question" [such delicacy of phrasing!], I don't think this would disqualify me from judging the suitability of an external link, just as I'd be happy if African Americans worked on articles related to, er, the ethnicity reflected in my shaving mirror. I took a quick look at the content of the "Cocoa Lounge Forum" and much of what I saw seemed stunningly banal. But then that's what I'd expect from a message forum with a "market" of millions. "Online communities", as they're grandly titled in this article, don't pertain to any of the kinds of sites that should be linked to; I recommend deletion of the lot. But as long as my pasty complexion and alien dialect are regarded as disqualifying me from this, I shan't delete them myself. -- Hoary 08:50, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Could the author of this paragraph please reword?
Recently added paragraph:
In addition, the term gained a significant following among academics and scholars for its more neutral demographic connotations. In this regard, one could write or discuss African Americans throughout American history without being anachronistic about Black or Negro political implications. Such a neutral context allows for a more accurate and free exploration of the differences between African American groups, political philosophies, cultural and religious practices. This usage has become politically charged because it counters the Black Nationalist theme of black unity.
I think I follow what this means to say, but it's not very clear:
- "…more neutral demographic connotations" ("its demographic connotations are more neutral") or (as I suspect) "…more neutral, demographic connotations" (its connotations are more neutral, more suggestive of demography).
- "In this regard, one could write or discuss African Americans throughout American history without being anachronistic about Black or Negro political implications." I think this means "The use of the term African American avoids the anachronistic political implications that might arise from using Black or Negro". But maybe it means something else.
- "Such a neutral context allows for …" I think this means "The lack of historical burden on the term allows for …" But, again, maybe it means something else.
- "This usage has become politically charged because it counters the Black Nationalist theme of black unity." I literally do not know what this is intended to mean. What usage? Politically charged among what groups? What is being said to "counter the Black Nationalist theme of black unity"?
In short, the writing is so mushy that I can't make sense of it. Please, could you try rewriting this with less ambiguity? -- Jmabel | Talk 06:15, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
It's been a week and this has not been fixed. I'm removing it. If someone can reword it coherently, feel free to reword and restore. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:30, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Slaveowners did not own Americans
The chart in the article lists the "Black American" population from 1790 to 1860. Slaves were not Americans. Slaveowners did not own Americans. Also, the Free Negroes were not Americans. The population figures should be titled "Number of non-Americans, enslaved and free."
I think that I'm fighting an uphill battle with people who are determined to distort the history of slavery.71.240.46.120 18:16, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
- I haven't read this piece in ages, but I agree with the above comment regarding the chart. They were enslaved Africans. I've tweaked the wording to make it accurate. deeceevoice 18:26, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
"Online communities" -- Why link to any?
Perhaps in a fit of pique, a user who's been attempting to insert links to an "online community" whose name resembles his or her own username has deleted links to two other "communities". I've already said above (in "Poetry lounge?") that I see no reason why any should be linked no matter how good they might be, but I decided to see for myself what the remaining ones actually were. Here they are, with my comments in italics.
- Mr. Africa Poetry Lounge Online community of Black Poets. I'll refrain from commenting on the quality of the poetry. But if this is worth linking to, surely the link should be from an article on black poetry or similar.
- NeoBlack.Com - African American Online Community: Web portal and information resource for black communities worldwide. General news. Not bad looking, but a lot is not about America. To put it politely, "advertising-heavy". (More directly: full of advertising junk.)
- NeoBlack.Com - Gallery Of Black Celebrities A nightmare of advertising. I was astonished to see some black person (too small a graphic for me to recognize) standing next to that great, great black celebrity George W Bush. (Really!) I clicked for a bigger pic but was assaulted with a more intense level of advertising, and gave up.
This stuff is pretty bad. If an "online community" is really noteworthy, WP can have an article about it. If a site is very informative about African Americans, link to that too. But I suggest cutting a section of links from this article to "online communities". Again, these don't pertain to any of the kinds of sites that should be linked to. -- Hoary 08:01, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Removed from the article as completely inappropriate
The following clearly does not belong in the article and is more appropriate here. Frankly, I doubt seriously that Malcolm X coined the term. If you wish to challenge the veracity of the claim, then do so here -- and not in the article itself. All you have to do is delete it, pending verification -- or simply excise it permanently and provide substantiation for your claim that it was used in early U.S. Census reports. But please don't clutter the article with "I" this and "I" that. Do not inject your personal opinions in the article; it is unencyclopedic -- and, frankly, no one cares what you (or any one of us) thinks. This is a reference work.
Deleted:
"Once again I am compelled to provide correction, and it is hoped the administrators heed, and make corrections per the facts, not popular opinion, not the Orwellian, white supremist, miseducation of Afrimericans agenda.
"The claim that Malcom X coined the term African-American is a LIE, an UNTRUTH, that follows and feeds the thread of miseducation of Afrimericans, and the world about Afrimericans, the term African-American came about in 1863 when then President Abraham Lincoln performed a public swearing in ceremony of newly imported slaves as naturalized American citizens, calling them African-American, and publicly announcing all that wanted to stay in America would be allowed and given the means to do so, and all that wanted to go back to Africa, would be given passage to do so. Furthermore, the United States Census Bureau, also adopted and OFFICIALLY used that term in 1863 to 1870, and it was taken out of use when Afrimerican leaders of the time, and the general populace of Afrimericans at the time, rejected the term based on the fact the majority of Afrimericans in America, had not come from Africa, and were generations removed from their African ancestry, with said direct ancestry practically abolished per ones tribal family and land being obliterated, and annexed by others decades earlier, thus they wanted and were GIVEN a new term, Negro, which was the official term sanctioned by the United States government, and accepted by the people up to the 1960's, nearly a hundred years later. But, unbeknownst to them, Negro was given the same LEGAL definition as African-American." deeceevoice 19:16, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps you'd tried doing this before (I haven't really been following this article, nor have I read it in its entirety recently.) But I rewrote the verbiage about Malcolm X. It's so much easier and productive than ranting about it. We'll see what happens to it. Peace. deeceevoice 19:37, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
I've also deleted a second rant. It's completely counterproductive to put such comments in the article. They will not stand because they are not completely on point and highly POV. If you're not going to write anything suitable for the article, but simply expound on your own personal opinions, you're of little use. Few will be inclined to read your comments.
If you have something of substance and NPOV to include in the article, then please do so. The changes I made to the Malcolm X thing could just as easily have been made by you; you certainly write well enough. Why didn't you simply change it, instead of just bytching about it -- and in the wrong place? Leave all your other non-pertinent comments and certainly your opnions for this, the discussion page, where they can be discussed and possibly used to inform the article itself. Otherwise, please just keep them to yourself. You're wasting our time. Peace. deeceevoice 02:17, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Another dubious link
I think this should be removed, but I'd like to hear whether others agree. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:02, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
- Agreed. I was about to remove it, but I didn't feel qualified to judge its relevance. I would remove it simply under the topic of "Wikipedia is WP:NOT a link directory". —HorsePunchKid→龜 07:09, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
- Agreed. But why stop there? I recommend the removal of any link to any "online community": see two or three screenfuls above, under the heading '"Online communities" -- Why link to any?'. -- Hoary 08:45, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
- Feel free, as far as I'm concerned. -- Jmabel | Talk 17:50, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
- I feel the adrenaline rush preparing me for being bold. -- Hoary 23:30, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
- I agree with removing the section. An earlier version of my comment included that as a parenthetical, but I thought it'd get shot down, so I removed it. :) —HorsePunchKid→龜 00:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
- It's gone. But I'm sure we'll soon see the same or similar links readded. -- Hoary 01:37, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Lenny Wilkens
Recently anonymously added: "Former NBA player/coach Lenny Wilkins is another who used the term as a teenager when filling a job application." Does anyone have a citation for this? If true, probably worth keeping, because Wilkins as a teenager would mean the 1950s, a pretty early usage of the term. Oh, and while we're at it: I pretty much don't do sports article, but surely Lenny Wilkins shouldn't be a red link! -- Jmabel | Talk 07:25, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
- I stand half-corrected: it was redlinked because it was misspelled (should be Lenny Wilkens). But I stand by my request for a citation. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:19, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
contemporary issues
some one (anonymously) put an NPOV tag in this section & posted this as to the reason for their edit.
"I do not believe this article is NPOV, nor correct. Blacks are often favored because of racial quotas...so with decent eductation will actually get a job over a white person"
I know of absolutely no racial quotas that currently exist in the United States, and even if they did exist, I'm not sure they'd be strong enough to say that blacks in the USA are in any way "favored." But, if that anonymous poster wants to back up his claims with citations or even personal experience, here is the place to do it.Reggaedelgado 06:03, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
- Racial quotas are illegal in the U.S. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:45, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Who is African American
A friend has asked me to correct some glitches in three paragraphs under "Who is African American." But before I do so, I wanted to ask a question. In the following paragraph:
- Caucasoid peoples, Indians, Asians and Arabs are traditionally not considered African American, though they or their ancestors may have emigrated from the African continent after generations of residence. In relatively rare cases when South African whites, Caucasoid North Africans or Asian immigrants from Africa living in America have self-identified as African American in an attempt to benefit from Affirmative Action or other entitlement programs, their claims generally have not been upheld.
What is meant by Caucasoid? The only definition I know of is by Carleton Coon in The Origin of Races (New York, 1962). But this was based on skull shape and included the people of Ethiopia, Senegal, Gambia, Mali, Upper Volta (nowadays called Burkina Faso), and many other populations who look utterly Black to Americans (indeed, some of whom have the darkest skin tone on the planet). Is the word merely intended to mean "White-looking" (to Americans)? FrankWSweet 18:28, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
- Caucasoid is a (pretentious, in my view) anthropologists' term, meaning exactly the same in racial terms as "Caucasian", which is to say, it is pretty darn imprecise. It predates Coon by a long time. And, in this case, it basically means "not black". "Non-black" would probably be as good a word, or better. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:11, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I have made the changes and "Caucasoid" no longer appears. The biggest problem with the prior text was in the two sentences: "During slavery, there was also a strong economic incentive to maximize the number of individuals who could be owned, bred, worked, traded and sold outright as human chattel. The designation of anyone possessing any trace of African ancestry as "black", and, therefore, of subordinate status to whites, guaranteed a source of free or cheap labor during slavery and for decades afterward."
The problem with those two sentences is that no court case ever ruled that someone was a slave merely because of their "race." Slavery was matrilinealy inherited. Hundreds of people of sub-Saharan phenotype were routinely freed following case law set by Higgins v. Allen, 1796 Maryland by proving that a matrilineal ancestor was free. Indeed, having mixed ancestry was useful because, ever since Gobu v. Gobu, 1802 North Carolina, Hudgins v. Wrights, 1806 Virginia, and Adelle v. Beauregard, 1810 Louisiana, the law of the land (subsequently followed in hundreds of cases) was that biracial individuals were presumed to be free unless proven otherwise. Furthermore, the one-drop rule (that a person of utterly European appearance and White ethnic self-identity is involuntarily Black nonetheless due merely to a known trace of African ancestry) was not widely known nor legislated until the 20th century (1910-1930). See one-drop theory and http://backintyme.com/Essay040811.htm for detailed sources.
The rest of the changes are intended to smooth out the narrative and to show when, where, how, and why perceived membership in the African-American community changed over the centuries. -- FrankWSweet 15:15, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I know I am stumbling into a subject about which I knowe nothjing but was fascinated to read here that some white Africans have claimed to be African Americans but have been rejected because they are not black. Is this in the article? I couldn't see it. I would strongly suggest putting it in the Whos is African American? section, as it is both interseting and extremely relevant, giving we non Americans an idea of what you Americans actually mean by the term, (ie you don't mean African you mean black/negroid), SqueakBox 15:31, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
- Sorry. The only African immigrant that I have research who applied (and was rejected) for Affirmative Action benetics is Mustafa Hefny of Detroit. But I cannot say that he is "really White," only that he was ruled to be legally White by the courts. He definitiely looks Black to most Americans. See his photos and a news story here [1]. -- FrankWSweet 03:21, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
At a quick read, the rewrite looks like a vast improvement. I think one other thing deserves mention, but I don't remember the details offhand. I know that at some point in the late 1600s or early 1700s there was a court decision (I believe it was either a Virginia or North Carolina case) that first made the distinction between (white) indentured servants and (black) chattel slaves. It isn't in our article on slavery. It probably belongs both there and her. Unfortunately, I can't recall the details offhand, and I suppose I could be mistaken; does someone have details on this? If not, I'll do my best to research this. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:23, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I think that you are asking about the first evidence of the enslavement of Africans in British North America. Unfortunately, there is no unambiguous anser. There are three obstacles to answering this: one semantic and two substantive.
1. The semantic obstacle is that the current historiographical canon uses the term indentured servant when referring to forced laborers of mainly European descent and slave only when speaking forced laborers of mainly African ancestry. For example, see <http://www.pbs.org/wnet/slavery/timeline/1619.html>. Notice the first words: "1619 At Jamestown, Virginia, approximately 20 captive Africans are sold into slavery in the British North American colonies." Note carefully the three elements of this factoid: 1619, sold into slavery, and Virginia. Got it? Now turn to the very next page at <http://www.pbs.org/wnet/slavery/timeline/1641.html>. Read the first words: "1641: Massachusetts is the first colony to legalize slavery." Wait a minute, how were 20 Africans sold into slavery 22 years before slavery was legal? Now turn to the next page at <http://www.pbs.org/wnet/slavery/timeline/1662.html>. Read the first words: "1662: Virginia enacts a law of hereditary slavery meaning that a child born to an enslaved mother inherits her slave status." Now we see that Virginia did not even have the concept of slavery (lifelong hereditary forced labor) until 1662. So how were those 20 Africans sold as slaves to Virginia colonists 43 years (two generations!) before their grandchildren invented slavery? The answer is that they were involuntary forced laborers of African descent and so slaves by the modern usage. Conversely, the 25,000 Irish who were sold by Cromwell to plantations in Nevis, St. Kitts, and Montserrat (see <http://republican-news.org/archive/1997/February20/20stkt.html>) are referred to as indentured servants in the literature, even though they went into permantent, lifelong, hereditary forced labor. The reason, again is because they were Europeans. (Interestingly, the same histories that call those Irish servants, call their biracial children slaves.)
Primary sources are of little help in resolving the semantic problem because servant (or servitude) and slave (or slavery) were used interchangeably until the U.S. Civil War. The best non-racialist definition of slavery (as opposed to the semantic problem above) is, "involuntary labor that is both (A) lifelong and (B) hereditary."
2. The first substantive obstacle is that it is unclear when the Chesapeake colonists first legalized lifelong indenture (traditionally, it was for a maximum of seven years). See Paul Finkelman, "The Crime of Color," Tulane Law Review 67, no. 6 (1992): 2071 for a good discussion of this, along with pointers to Breen & Innes (1980), Morgan (1975), and Jordan (1968). Everyone seems to agree, however, that it was in the 1660s.
3. The second substantive obstacle is that the first mention of hereditary forced labor in British North America is the partus sequitur ventrem law of 1662.
- Whereas some doubts have arisen whether children got by any Englishman upon a negro woman should be slave or free, be it therefore enacted and declared by the present grand assembly, that all children borne in this country shall be held bond or free only according to the condition of the mother. [--See William Waller Hening, The Statutes at Large: Being a Collection of all the Laws of Virginia, from the First Session of the Legislature in the Year 1619 (Richmond [Va.]: Printed by and for Samuel Pleasants Junior printer to the Commonwealth, 1809), 2:170; Kathleen M. Brown, Good Wives, Nasty Wenches, and Anxious Patriarchs: Gender Race and Power in Colonial Virginia (Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina, 1996), 132; or Paul Finkelman (1992, cited above).]
There are two reasons for doubting that this law was the first acceptance of hereditary forced labor. First, it implies ("doubts have arisen") that the law was meant only to resolve the status of biracial children, and that the slave status of colonists of overwhemingly African ancestry were not an issue. Second, Jamestown was a benighted backwater surrounded by a vast New World empire comprising over a million European colonists in huge commercial cities that rivaled those of Europe, and with universities that had been in operation for over a century. It seems likely that, since the 1650s, the grandchildren of the original British colonists had succumbed to the surrounding Iberian hegemony, which had employed slavery in the modern sense since Las Siete Partidas del Rey Alfonso X (1265).
If you want to learn the details of this confusing period, I recommend the above references (Morgan, Finkelman, etc.). Finkelman is probably the best place to start, since he summarizes everyone else's conclusions and clearly recognizes the major historiographical disagreements spawned by the saemantic problem. -- FrankWSweet 14:58, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
- Still, if nothing else, this would seem to demonstrate with certainty that hereditary slavery was institutionalized no later than 1662. Right? -- Jmabel | Talk 04:43, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree. Other British colonies may have been a bit later than Virginia (Maryland legislation usually lagged Virginia by a year or two). And other cultures were much earlier. Dutch New York had the Spanish system. Indeed, the first African-Americans in British North America were offloaded in 1619 Jamestown from a Dutch ship carrying them from Saint Domingue to New Amsterdam. Christians and Muslims had enslaved each other since medieval times and this system continued in the New World with Africans. But, when it comes to English-speaking North America, I would say that 1662 Virginia was definitely it. -- FrankWSweet 11:33, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
I alway thought one had to be born in Africa to be African. African is not even an ethnic group. Nigerian American I can understand, but African? --Vehgah 18:40, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
- Perhaps you should read the article. No, African is not an ethnic group. Yes, African American is an ethnic group. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:48, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
What does African American mean? I know the answer but I would like to hear it from someone else. African American implys that one was born in Africa and moved to America. But most people called African American never even set foot in Africa, let alone knows their ancestors. "White" Americans are never called European americans --Vehgah 16:11, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
It may imply one was born in Africa but it clearly doesn't mean that, it means one has a recent racial heritage that is black, SqueakBox 16:29, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
So African born whites aren't African American, even if they lived in Africa for many generations? The Term African American doesn't do Black Americans justice.
--Vehgah 17:04, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Systemic bias
This is anice example of systemic bias. All over wikipedia "African American" is used in place of "black" for the sake of political correctness. But the term is simply wrong in referring to most of the blacks in the world, as most blacks (including their ancestors) have never set a foot in "America." The term is simply incorrect as a generic term for blacks. Nathan J. Yoder 04:43, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
- I cannot speak to "all over Wikipedia," but this particular article is tightly focused on African-American ethnicity—the U.S. ethnic community that arose in the Jacksonian northeast (see The Black Yankees) and whose customs merged with Southern freedmen and Creole traditions after the U.S. Civil War. Specifically, it is about the U.S. ethnic community of mainly African origin whose ancestors came to North America due to the transatlantic slave trade before the Hispanic and West Indian immigrations of the 20th century. Although this article references British West Indians and Hispanics of African heritage, these are not the main focus. Many other Wikipedia articles describe, at different levels of categorization, other groups of the African Diaspora (1500-1850) including: Afro-Brazilian, Afro-Cuban, Afro-Ecuadorian, Afro-Latin American, Afro-Mexican, Afro-Peruvian, Afro-Trinidadian, and Black Canadian. There is even an article Black People that describes the popular idea that there are many "Black people" all over the world who have no African ancestry (Dalits, Melanesians, Australian Aborigines). As that article points out, it is a hard to describe just who is included under this label. Frank W Sweet 13:25, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
- When referring to black people from America, African American is used. When referring to black people from Canada, Black Canadian is used. "African American" should never used to identify black people as a whole, and if I see it used in such a way, I correct it. --FuriousFreddy 05:49, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
It is used as a generic term though, that's the whole point. Nathan J. Yoder 05:53, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
- Could you cite three examples? -- Jmabel | Talk 06:40, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
- I will when I come across them again. This is just something I remembered from browsing articles in the past. I don't remember which ones specifically had the problem. Nathan J. Yoder 11:57, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
- FurriousFreddy--
It is improper to assume that blacks from America should be defines as African American. West Indians and Afro-Latino's do not share the same cultural and ethnic identity with black Americans with origins in the antebellum South. I know from experience that Blacks in the North East that have origins in Latin America and the West Indies, clearly define themselves as a distinct group separate from "African-Americans".
- I'm African-American, and my heritage come from the American South (North Carolina) and the West Indies (Trinidad). Black people in America and the West Indies share very similar cultural traits that traces back to Africa. I have never met an American of West Indies decent who had a problem being called African-American. - QzDaddy 13:21, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
- I think what he meant was: Can you cite three quotes from the article that refer to British West Indians or Hispanics of African heritage as "African American? -- Frank W Sweet 11:15, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
- West Indians and Afro-Latino's do not have a problem with being called African-American, however the term African-American over-simplifies their culture and beliefs in favor of a generalization. At the annual parades that celebrate cultural identity in New York City, there are both African-American and West Indian, Dominican, and Hation parades. Some institutions of higher-learning have taken notice to differentiate African-Americans from West Indian and Afro-Latino's. A recent study found that although West Indians make up only 3.3% of the U.S. black population, they account for 41% of the black population at 28 of top U.S. colleges. http://hcs.harvard.edu/~bsa/bguide_article1.html
- Exactly what part of my West Indies "culture" and "beliefs" are being over-simplified by the term African American? Futhermore, do "you" have heritage from the West Indies or from the antebellum south? Just because Harvard did this study (which I happen to agree with), it doesn't mean my heritage (southern and West Indies) is being over-simplified. I'm pretty sure there have been other studies that showed the many similarities between black southerners and blacks from the West Indies (Haitians, Trinidadians, Bahamians, Jamaicans, etc). Also, when I go to parades and Carnivals (whether they are in New Orleans, New York, DC, or Trinidad), they're all heavily themed around "African roots". - QzDaddy 02:38, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
There's no reason to get deffensive. I'm simply trying to make the point that their is a clear difference between African-Americans and West Indians, Africans, and Afro-Latino's (even the term Afro-Latino is not always appropriate). The mere fact that blacks choose to celebrate their ethnic identity sperately, indicates that simply having "African roots" is not enough to bind them into a single group. To illustrate, whites in the U.S. with origins in Europe do not call themselves European-Americans because that term ignores the cultural, linguistic, and tradtions that difine their ethnic identity. I think the person that wrote the Afro-Latino page illustrates my point the best:
- "Concepts of "Black", negro or "African" are vastly different in Latin America than how they are applied within the English-speaking nations of America, since the one-drop theory was never used. Latinos believe the term "Afro-Latino" is not necessary as the term "Latino" itself ecompasses and includes a melée of various ethnic heritages that includes Indigenous, African and European bloodlines. Many in Latin America feel that certain allegedly politically-correct citizens of the United States lack a thorough understanding of what it actually means to be a Latino in America. They feel that many U.S. persons are trying to impose their views on how to define Latino culture by viewing and comparing everyone's history through their own cultural and racial experiences in the United States and not through the cultural and ethnic lens of Latino America itself."
- You still haven't convinced me that my West Indies "culture" and "beliefs" are being over-simplified by the term African American. But, lets take a real world example. The last two U.S. Secretary of States were both African-American: Colin Powell, an African-American of Jamaican decent (West Indies) and Condoleezza Rice, an African-American from Alabama (antebellum south). They both call themselves African-American, everyone in the world calls them African-American, and neither of them have a problem with term or definition for African-American. They both had families that instilled the same "belief" that if you work hard you can accomplish anything, along with many other similar beliefs. They're both well educated and accomplished individuals. So, which one is not/less African American? What culture difference to they have?
You still don't understand, but we'll agree to disagree. Nevertheless, it is still not your place, or anyone else for that matter, to assume a person's ethnic or cultural identity based on the color of their skin.
Who is African American?
I removed the following recently added paragraph because it needs rewording.
To be considered African American one has to be either a Black American of African ancestry [2], or, a black person born in Africa who immigrates to the United States, and becomes an U.S. citizen by meeting the requirements of The U.S. Citizenship and Naturalization Agency. [3]
The problem is that the added paragraph is circular. The first stated criterion "a Black American of African ancestry" relies entirely upon the highlighted adjective. If it merely said, "an American of African ancestry," it would clearly be incorrect. First, many Americans (about 5 percent) who are socially accepted as ethnically African-American due to family history in fact have no detectable African DNA markers. See E.J. Parra and others, “Ancestral Proportions and Admixture Dynamics in Geographically Defined African Americans Living in South Carolina,” American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 114 (2001), 18-29, figure 1. Second, about one-third of White USAmericans carry detectable African DNA markers from ancestors who passed through the U.S. endogamous color line. See [4].
The second criterion is even more heavily dependent upon the adjective black because in this case, the term does not refer to appearance. Mostafa Hefny, an African immigrant from Africa (Egypt) was ruled to be legally White despite his very dark sub-Saharan appearance. (See his photos at [5].) And, as explained in the article, Mary Walker of 1988 Denver was ruled to be legally African-American, despite fair complexion, green eyes, straight light-brown hair, and no documented family history of African-American heritage.
Finally, an immigrant can willingly become African American despite having been born in neither Africa not the U.S. Place of birth is irrelevant. No one would deny African American status to a black immigrant of sub-Saharan ancestry who happened to have been born in Jamaica, say, or in France.
What the paragraph comes down to is, "To be considered African American one has to be black and American." But, as the court cases show, one is black if one is accepted as such by the African-American community, whatever your ancestry, whatever your appearance, and one is not-black if rejected by the African-American community, again whatever your ancestry, whatever your appearance.
In the end, the paragraph is saying nothing more than, "To be considered African American (by African Americans) one has be considered African American (by African Americans)." This is circular.
If there is any other meaning in the paragraph, I suggest that it be rewritten to focus on that other meaning. As it stands, I cannot see that it adds anything to the article. -- Frank W Sweet 13:47, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I always thought that one must be born in Africa to be African. BTW, African is not an ethnic group. --Vehgah 18:38, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
- That is a good point. In some ways, the term "African American" is a historical accident that makes as little sense as calling Native Americans "Indians." We (incorrectly) call Native Americans "Indians" because Columbus was convinced that he had found a route to India, and so the people who lived there were Indians. Similarly, Africa is a continent with many nations and many diverse peoples. It is larger and more populous than Europe. The geographic triangle bounded by Cape Town, Casablanca, and Cairo is a vast kaleidoscope of thousands of cultures, religions, and mutually unintelligible languages.
- The people who were caught up by the transatlantic slave trade were mainly of the Bantu-speaking cultures of West Central Africa, although a few came from other regions. As explained in African_American_history#Early_History, most came from eight regions of Africa and comprised about 40 different ethnic groups. But in the United States, they were all thrown together. Since they lacked a common language, religion, or cultural tradition, they essentially had to reinvent themselves as a single ethnic group. As explained in African_American_history#Origins_of_Today.27s_African-American_Ethnicity, shortly after the American Revolution they adopted the term "African-American" for themselves because African ancestry was the only thing that they had in common. -- Frank W Sweet 19:57, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
What about Moroccans
Goujagou removed a reference to Moroccans as an example (along whith Boers) of Africans who are not considered "Black" in the United States, in the sense of being eligible for African-American ethnicity. His comment was that there are black Moroccans.
Goujagou is correct. If you define "Black" by appearance (dark skin tone, kinky hair, etc.) then there are many Black Moroccans, just as there are Black South Africans, Black Japanese (members of the African Diaspora living in Japan), Black Chinese, and so forth. Nevertheless, in the context of the article the question is: "Who is seen as being on the Black side of the color line upon immigration"? Any immigrant who is seen as a descendant of the African Diaspora is usually assigned to the Black side of the U.S. endogamous color line, no matter what country they immigrate from. Any immigrant seen as "White" (more precisely, seen as non-Black) is assigned to the White side of the U.S. color line.
The problem comes down to who is doing the "seeing." The issue is complicated by the fact that federal courts have ruled that no one from Morocco (or anywhere in North Africa) is eligible for EEOC civil rights enforcement or affirmative action entitlements as "Black," no matter what they look like. See the Mostafa Hefny case, discussed in the body of the article, for the most recent precedent. The issue is further complicated by the ephemeral nature of the sub-Saharan phenotyoe, which can vanish in descendants after just two or three generations of out-marriage.
The issue is a hotly contested one within the African-American community and usually comes down to conflicting opinions on whether someone "looks black," on the one hand, versus family history "born into the African-American community," on the other. The debate is probably worth expanding into a paragraph or two in the article. For now, guided by federal case law, I would suggest leaving the Moroccans in there as an example of non-Black Africans. I would also remove aboriginal Australians from the paragraph since they are not part of the African diaspora. -- Frank W Sweet 13:58, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Definition
Here is a question from an ignorant Englishman. Were I, a white man, to have a child with my black partner in the US would that child be considered black, wouldf s/he be considered black or would s/he be considered both black and white? It seems from thae article that said child would be considered black and would not be considered white. Is this the case? (as I believe it would be in England), SqueakBox 15:10, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
- The short answer is that such a child in the United States could probably self-identify however he or she wishes. As a quadruple grandfather of mixed ancestry, I have reached the conclusion that children are born with opinions. The long answer is that it depends upon the child's appearance which, in turn, depends on the random recombination of the parents' genes. Consider three possibilities:
- A U.S. child of in-betweenish or ambiguous appearance in a region with a large Hispanic population would be accepted as White or Black, depending upon the circle of friends, but would likely be seen as unremarkably "Hispanic" by passers-by. My latest grandson falls into this category.
- A U.S. child of definite European appearance would in practice be allowed to choose his/her own ethnic self-identity by most Americans. A few zealous Eurocentrists and Afrocentrists might insist that one drop of Black blood makes one Black (as they say about Peter Ustinov, Carol Channing or Alexander Siddig, for instance), but U.S. society as a whole is rather tolerant of such personal ethnic choice if the person "looks white."
- Finally, a U.S. child of strongly African appearance would be under extreme pressure from friends, teachers, police, and all the coercive powers of government to self-identify as Black or be involuntarily assigned to the U.S. Black endogamous group, like it or not. (See Afro-European Admixture in the United States for demographic genetic evidence of such involuntary assignment.) -- Frank W Sweet 15:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)