Talk:Potassium cyanide
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I think the article should begin with chemical and physical information about potassium cyanide, instead of opening by saying that it's the most common instrument of suicide. (Incidentally, if anyone can cite statistics supporting this claim, that would help.)
rajneesh 06:12, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
According to Suicide, sourced from [1], in the US firearms are by far the most common method of suicide & four times more common than the next. After that, it lists asphyxia, hanging, drug overdose, carbon monoxide poisoning, jumping from height, stabbing or exsanguination, and drowning. In Australia, where firearms are less readily available, the most common method among 15-24 year olds is hanging, followed by firearms, followed by motor vehicle exhaust, followed by poisoning (all methods) [2]. And so on. Obviously methods will vary somewhat from one country to another, but this claim doesn't seem to be even remotely true, so I've removed it along with some accompanying material that seemed equally spurious. --Calair 03:39, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Rat poison?
Was cyanide really 'commonly used as rat poison'? I know there's an anti-smoking ad out there mentioning the presence of cyanide in rat poison, but AFAIK most poisons are based on anticoagulants, heavy metals, or strychnine. --Calair 00:03, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
- Anticoagulants are usually favoured these days, but cyanide salts have been used in the past, yes. Zyklon B was originally developed as a pesticide (for fumigation). Physchim62 10:16, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I remembered the use of cyanide for fumigating insects, just hadn't heard of it being used for rats until this article. --Calair 15:01, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Anecdotal agents
Citation for the alleged antidotal effect of glucose? Quite apart from cake icing mostly being sucrose, it looks chemically nonsense to me. I suspect it's a misinterpretation of texts (eg [3] and [4]) reporting that glucose reduces the toxicity of dicobalt edetate when the latter is used as a cyanide antidote. RayGirvan 20:20, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- After a lot of Googling I found one article[5] that appears to claim an antidotal effect for glucose alone. By my limited Spanish and with the aid of a machine translator, it appears they mixed glucose with a cyanide solution and found it less toxic to mice than the same concentration of cyanide without glucose. Running part of that article through a machine translator:
- In relation to the glucose, anecdotally it is mentioned that, the abundant sweet wine ingestion was the reason for which Rasputín (Grigori Yefímovich, 1872-1916), Russian monk hated by the nobility, survived an attempt of envenenamiento with cyanide. Without a detailed scientific explanation, the use of hypertonic glucosado serum to the 30-50% intravenous route like main antidótico treatment, or cotreatment of the fundamental antidótica therapy is suggested. The glucose would react with the in the middle acid cyanide [I suspect that's actually "would react with cyanide in an acid medium"], giving a heptosa, with disappearance of the ciánica molecule in the reaction... In the present test, a solution of D (+) anhydrous glucose to 40%, antagonizó totally the poisonous effect of 40 a lethal dose of mg/kg [should read "a lethal dose of 40 mg/kg", I think] of potassium cyanide, after one hour of incubation... according to the observed results, the union cyanide-glucose is apparently stable, at least under physiological conditions in mice and to the contact with the peritoneal liquid. On the other hand, according to the expressed thing by Calabuig (2004), this one union is facilitated in the middle acid, reason why it would be possible to hope that, under a toxic picture, where this present the lactic acidosis product of the increased anaerobic metabolism, the reaction took place in a smaller time... This, nevertheless, also contradicts the expressed thing by other authors (Pavia and col., 1976), that indicates the requirement of slightly basic means for the spontaneous occurrence of the reaction nonsingle, but, who in the middle acid, the cianohidrina would be disturbed releasing cyanide. Thus, the possible molecule formation must even be considered spontaneous that is nontoxic and stable and that derives in the partial or total diminution from the toxic power of the cyanide, or, as Calabuig mentions (2004), takes place the disappearance of the ciánica molecule in the reaction.
- So there does seem to be some basis for believing that glucose alone might be an antidote to cyanide poisoning, but I don't think Wikipedia should be suggesting that this is anything other than an experimental treatment. (I'm vaguely bothered by the number of sites that are faithfully reproducing Wikipedia's claims on this, too.) I'll take a stab at rewording that section - see whether you think the tag needs to stay on after that? --Calair 00:04, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Well done for finding the Spanish article, this is the first investigation I have seen of the oft-repeated Rasputin story. However, dispite the title of the article, they do not show that glucose is a cyanide antidote, merely that administering glucode and cyanide at the same time (in fact, after a 10 min incubation of the glucose/cyanide mixture) reduces the toxicity of cyanide. This is probably due to a condensation reaction between the cyanide and the aldehyde grouping of the glucose molecule, leading to a cyanoheptose which is less toxic and more easily dealt with by the body.
- Three cyanide antidotes are known, although there is some controversy over the best one to use.
- In any case, this section is probably better placed in Cyanide (although the relevant section there should also be cleaned up a bit).
- Physchim62 10:13, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- (Also note that amyl nitrate is used in the management of cyanide poisoning.) [Unsigned edit by Big Bob the Finder 23:01, 12 Aug 2005 (UTC)]
- It is, but see HSE recommendations for first aid treatment of cyanide poisoning (UK) for a discussion of its probable lack of effectiveness. Physchim62 18:11, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
- (Also note that amyl nitrate is used in the management of cyanide poisoning.) [Unsigned edit by Big Bob the Finder 23:01, 12 Aug 2005 (UTC)]
- You're right, the experiment doesn't actually show glucose to be an antidote (except in a sort of pre-emptive fashion). However, from what I could make out the discussion was speculating that the same process might take place within the bloodstream, which would make IV glucose a useful antidote. Of course, speculation is not demonstration, but it does at least show that under some circumstances glucose can neutralise cyanide.
- And yes, an awful lot of this article is really about CN- in general rather than specifically KCN, and should go in Cyanide.--Calair 16:33, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- And yes, . I agree that a lot of this article should really be under Cyanide
- Regardless, we're not here to draw conclusions ourselves. We don't use primary sources. This isn't a place for original thesis. Thus, unless it is published first by another source, I don't think the effects of glucose should be published here.Comatose51 03:42, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- The German paper Handlungsfähigkeit bei tödlichen oralen Intoxikationen mit Cyan-Verbindungen from a journal for forensic medecine (Rechtsmedizin 9: 56 - 61, 1999) cites a case of a girl who accidentally drank poisoned, sugared tea and whose poisoning symptoms did not became evident until after half an hour later. They state that this could be due to the sugar binding some of the CN- ions. Although they do not give any details, they cite glucose as one of the factors responsible for a delayed poisoning by cyanide. There are no reasonable sources about Rasputin, but it may also be that his stomach was not acid enough or that he used lemon for his tea (thereby releasing HCN before drinking it) for getting poisoned. Phrood 21:42, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Amyl nitrate/nitrite
IPCS/CEC refers to amyl nitrite as a potential antidote[9], whereas the HSE discusses amyl nitrate[10]. Are amyl nitrate and nitrite both in use as CN- antidotes, or has one of these sources goofed? --Calair 23:52, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
- I think the HSE has goofed, as have I, further up this talk page! Amyl nitrite (CAS number [110-46-3]) is the "traditional" first aid for cyanide poisoning. Amyl nitrate would probably be better than nothing, as it should act as a vasodilator and also increase methemoglobin levels, but it would have a shorter shelf live (even the nitrite should be stored at <15 °C) and a nasty habit of exploding. (Check-source Bretherick, L. (Ed.) (1986). Hazards in the Chemical Laboratory (4th Edn.). London:Royal Society of Chemistry. ISBN 0-85186-489-9.
{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: publisher ___location (link)). Physchim62 20:50, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
Suggested section merge
The toxicology section at cyanide now seems to be in a state to receive the information which is here and relates to cyanides in general. Does anyone object to me merging across this material? I would leave a short paragraph mentioning that KCN is poisonous as are all alkali cyanides and directing the reader to cyanide for more information. Physchim62 18:02, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
- Yes, that's where it ought to be. I kept meaning to do the same thing myself, but never got around to it :-) --Calair 23:09, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
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I have a few questions maybe someone can help
If cyanide and carbon monoxide inhibit the same protein complex on the electron transport chain then would the clinical presentations be the same? If so why do we treat carbon monoxide poisoning different then cyanide poisoning?
- The quick answer is that they don't. Cyanide ions inhibit the mitochodrial electron transport chain, carbon monoxide blocks hemaglobin. Herein lies the difference in clinical symptoms. Physchim62 19:20, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
- I heard that iron II and iron III are the points of attack of these two molecules. So one has more affinity to iron II the other to Iron III so you get a difference. Stone 07:57, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Question
Anybody know how you'd find Potassium Cyanide around the house?