Talk:Machsom Watch
To Zero (2nd request or maybe 3rd)
You removed a sourced material. Pleas avoid removing such material. You have also removed material which presented the POV of the those who think there is a need to take care of everyone's human rights. The right of the jews not to be killed is also a human right. This is an NPOV encyclopedia and all POV must be represented. Clearly the POV of the Mchsom Watch is represnted but the other view was not. Not the whole Haaretz article must be brought into Wikipedia how ever the main POV about the subject of the article should be. Zeq 11:03, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with Zeq that the quote is absolutely relevant, as it is a critique of the organization by the institution directly affected by the organization's activities. However, I agree with Zero that the critical comment probably belongs in the Criticism section. I also encourage Zero to use the talk page to discuss reverts, and remind everyone to be mindful of WP:3RR. Babajobu 14:04, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- There are hundreds of "relevant quotes" on the web but we already have a criticsm section that is nearly half of the article. That is already too long. Note that I am not playing the same quotations game as I could easily add a large number of quotations in praise of the group. We don't even quote the group members about what motivates them yet it is supposed to be ok to add endless near-identical criticisms. This is not acceptable. --Zero 11:49, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- Well, criticism by the Israeli army is especially relevant since they are the creator and proprietor of the checkpoints that Machsom Watch monitors. I agree with you that the perspective of the organization is missing from this article. But this does not necessitate cutting down the criticism section, which is not especially long by Wikipedia standards. Rather, I suggest you get the perspective of the organization in there somewhere. I wouldn't just add random quotes from members of the organization discussing their motivation, but rather some comments or quotes that have the official imprimatur of Machsom Watch itself, e.g. something from a statement of purpose of theirs, or whatever, and maybe a complimentary quote from a notable person. Babajobu 12:18, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- Agree with Babajobu. Also, The language in Zeq's proposal was better, Zero's phrase "concern about the effect on civilians of the siege" implicitly labels Israeli actions as a siege, which is propagandistic. -- Heptor talk 12:26, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- Since the 1st paragrph discuss the Organization own description NPOV means that other views will get the same level in the 1st paragrph. A clear NPOV rule is to describe the controversy - clearly there is a controversy here and it is the existence and need for checkpoints. Checkpoint watch is so ignorant of the need that every time a terrorist is caught in one of the checkpoints they (who are there to see it) claim that he was sent by IDF so clearly since they go to such length to argue against the checkpoints there is a controvesy. BTW, I my self am against the checkpoints as well. I think israel should defened it self on the border not inside Palestinian territory. Zeq 15:16, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- I highly second Babajobu's opinion. The article should not present Machsom Watch's perspective as facts. For example, in the sentence "Machsom Watch also expresses concern about the effect on civilians of the siege of West Bank communities by Israeli military authorities reacting to the Al Aqsa Intifada.", the word "siege" is taken directly from MW's website. Obviously, that's MW's concern about what MW sees as siege, but the article presents these opinions as facts. To conform with WP:NPOV, we must always clearly attrbute MW's opinions to MW. Pecher Talk 15:46, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- The way to handle that problem is well-established: use their words in quotation marks. The pov that they have is an important piece of information. I agree it shouldn't be presented as plain narrative. --Zero 23:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- We already have their words. Right at the start of the article. This is taken directly from their web site :
- Monitor the behaviour of soldiers and police at checkpoints
- Ensure that the human and civil rights of Palestinians attempting to enter Israel are protected
- Record and report the results of our observations to the widest possible audience, from the decision-making level to that of the general public
- Protest against the very existence of the checkpoints
I agree to quote Dan Halutz in the introduction of this article just as soon as Machsom Watch is quoted in the introduction of Dan Halutz. Also, stop adding the link to Haaretz - a week or two from now it will be dead. --Zero 23:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- You are wrong but you are free to Edit Dan Halutz and we will see you there. This is the Machsom watch article. The group has a view (POV) on the issues of Checkpoints and Human rights, their view is in the 1st paragrpah. The IDF has invited them to a meeting and expressed the other POV. Mchsom watch gave details on the meeting o the Press and now it all desrve (as per NPOV policy) o be in 1st paragraph. In fact, a wider discussion of the controversy is needed. Zeq 04:44, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I think an IDF point of view should be in the lead, but don't think it should be as long and detailed. Perhaps something like: In response to the above stated aims, the IDF, which maintains the checkpoints, responded that human rights lie not only in the protection of Palestinian civilians at checkpoints, but also in the protection of Israeli civilians from terrorist acts.
I realize there may be a few problems with that, because not only is it slightly different than what Halutz really said, but also the IDF spokesman is the official voice of the IDF, not Halutz. However, I suggest a wording which responds to MW but mentions only the IDF as a body (or the spokesman at most), but not Halutz. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 05:45, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- Hi Yan, Chief of Staff is an authoritative voice for the IDF, in fact he is above the spokesman so there should not be any problem. WE have used 60 words from Machsom watch web site and the quote from IDF is about half than that (32 words) so I don't think we need to make any shorter. In fact I think we need to expend it. Mchsom watch view is only one POV, IDF has another view that desrve to be heared. Zeq 06:28, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Outrageous! Please go to IDF and quote the opinion of Hamas in the introduction, then we will have something to discuss. This is 'not an article on checkpoints, nor is it an article on human rights. First we describe the topic of the article, then we give external opinions and comments on it. That's how good articles are structured. --Zero 09:04, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- You are free to edit IDF . If you find the introduction to be POV make it NPOV. Otherwise I request again that you honor Wikipedia NPOV policy and self revert your last edit which was clearly POVing the introduction. Zeq 09:08, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to go with Ynhockey on this one, the IDF POV is definitely relevant here but I would say it is faulty reasoning to suggest that their view should be just as thouroughly represented as Machsom Watch's, after all this is the MW article.
Also I think it is unreasonable to suggest that Yan's voice is more authoratative that the IDF spokesman just because he is of higher rank, the Generals in most countries including Israel have been known to make unofficial public remarks that are contrary to their nation's established policy.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 09:11, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- The IDF opinion is in the Criticism section. I think my wording of it is better than Zeq's poor English, but feel free to edit it iut you disagree. Also, the problem of whether it is an IDF opinion or a Halutz opinion is solved by just noting who said it and what his position is. No need to classify if beyond that. --Zero 09:22, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- I agree your version is less ackward(??) akward? but I think we could still use at least another sentence or so, the criticism section now still seems relatively poorly written as a whole, it might as well just be a bullet list since each point has so little "flare".- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 09:47, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- P.S. Zero, look at the AIPAC talk section
- It is excessive. A careful selection of half the material would tell the same story and be less ugly. --Zero 10:26, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- The issue here is (as always) NPOV and not my poor english. Is my poor english the reason you removed 30 words from top of the article to a seprate section ? Zeq 10:01, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- I didn't move it to a separate section, I moved it to the existing section where it belongs. --Zero 10:26, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- The first section of this article desrve to have more than just the organization own claims. The answer of the IDF to their claim desreve to be in the first paragrph. there is more than one POV on this issue. Zeq 10:30, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- I agree that the intro must include criticism. It's unfair to include only one POV in the intro, especially when the other POV is already presented in the article. Pecher Talk 11:45, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I think we could just make the current intro more innocuous and add something like "...is a controversial group".- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 12:14, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
P.S. Zero, look at the AIPAC talk section - he got you there, Zero. Just because an organization acts for the insterest of Israel doesn't mean it should be criticized while organizations which are against Israel's interests should only be praised. If you support praise+criticism in AIPAC, then you should support it here as well. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 17:44, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- In what sense did he "get me"? The AIPAC article supports me completely. There is no criticism at all until the organisation has been described at length (largely in its own terms) and its history given. The "controversies" section is the 6th and critical comment from outsiders does not come until the 8th section. That is a reasonable overall structure for articles on organisations to have. There is no precedent and no justification for criticism of the organization to be quoted in the introduction. --Zero 23:06, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
by saying that the group is "controversial" we did not say much. NPOV policy is to describe the controvesy.
The group web site is quoted on the 1st paragrph. This is one POV. The other POV (not even about the group itself, i.e. not a direct critism of it) but just a different view of the main issue : i.e. Human rights is something that BOTH palestinians and Israelis have a right too. So this view (about the actions taken by IDF, the actions that the group protest against) must balance the group own claims. This is the essence of the NPOV policy.
I would love to have an ArbCom case about it and let them decide. It is a win-win.
The article now is conforming to NPOV policy or maybe by quoting the group it is quoting propeganda.
MY Suggestion to Zero:
Follow Dispute resolution process: File for mediation, conduct a poll. If it does not get your way, I would like to see this get to ArbCom. (same about sarafend btw). In anycase I suggest that you stop the edit war about it. Zeq 22:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I should mention that my comment asking zero to look at the AIPAC article did not have to do with this article, but was a seperate matter. Sorry- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 23:56, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- There is nothing unusual in referring to cricism of an organization in the intro: see, for example, International Solidarity Movement. I am also tempted to cite Ku Klux Klan as an example; it is a featured article, by the way. Pecher Talk 17:28, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Is Machsom watch web site a propeganda ?
I would like for now to pose this as a question. Zeq 21:57, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- Well, the answer is obviously yes. But, why do you ask? -- Y Ynhockey (Talk) Y 04:49, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Disputing a legitimate edit
Zero has at first tried to remove the quote from haaretz. After he understood he can not delete it he now tries to push it to the last line and the last paragrpah of this article.
NPOV policy is that we describe the controversy. We present both POV (in this case on the question of "what is Human rights ?"
Zero, if you dispute this I suggest that you start a dispute resolution process. Conduct a poll, file for mediation - what ever. That is the proper way to handle disputes. I am aksing you again to stop the edit war about a legitimate edit. Zeq 05:05, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Mediation on the dispute
What should go on 1st paragrph ?
Hi Slim,
I think we had some edit conflict on checkpoint watch.
Anyhow:
The issue (IMHO) is to be NPOV about the checkpoints themself. Checkpointwatch has one view, most israelis has another view and they belive that the checkpoints protect israelis from terror.
Personally I think both are right. In any case, it is important to bring in the intro the watch goals (as they see them) and IDF head response about the broader Human rights issue. This is under mediation and you are welcome to join. I want to understand why you think critisim should go on top and not NPOV discussion about the chiken and egg about terror and checkpoints (which IMHO, is the controversy to describe) Zeq 22:24, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
- I didn't fully understand your question, Zeq. Some criticism should go in the intro, because the intro needs to be balanced. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:56, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- Naybe I was not clear but it is not a big deal. The way you have it here: [1] is just fine. I added more source and Wikify Emil Gruntzweig - which i was very surprized to see had no article on him as he preceeded Rabin by 13 years as Israel's first political victim. I was with him that night. I will need to translate this: http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%9C_%D7%92%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%A6%D7%95%D7%95%D7%99%D7%99%D7%92 Zeq 06:54, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
פעילותן של מתנדבות מחסום-ווטש, לצד נסיונות הצבא להציג "כיבוש נאור" בעיני העולם, אכן הביאו לשיפור קל במחסומים, והפכו את ההישרדות היומיומית לנסבלת יותר. אולם מחסום-ווטש מתנגד לעצם הקמת המחסומים. במחסומים הללו ניתן לראות, על בסיס יומיומי, את ההשפלה והדיכוי המתמשכים - צבא כובש.
translation:
The activity of watch volunteers, along with the army attempts to present an "enlightened occupation" to the rest of the world, indeed brought slight imporvment in checkpoints and had turned the daily susrvival (of Palestinians) to somewhat bearable (spelling?). But Machsom-watch object the actual existense of the checkpoints - in thise chackpoints it is posible to see on a daily basis the humiliation caused by an occupation army,
Haaretz Article - full text
from http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/690397.html
Last update - 23:55 05/03/2006
[ Text deleted for obvious copyright reasons. --Zero 02:01, 11 March 2006 (UTC) ]
- Take a copy if you want, folks, but this blatant copyright violation can't be allowed. --Zero 10:22, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
sources for ths article
I looked at all the "citation needed" tags. It seems much of this article is direct quotes from how the group describe itself. The source is it's own web site. Zeq 04:39, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- The sources need go into the article. It's no use us being the only ones to know the sources. If you quote someone, for example, you need to link to, or otherwise cite, your source after the quote. Also, please add new posts to the bottom of this page so that people can see them. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:55, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Zero's argument
Zero justifies his edit war with: "Criticism in the introduction is a violation of normal article structure.) "
We may need ArbCom to rule on that. While NPOV policy is clear it may need more calrifications. Zeq 11:48, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I suggest that everyone look at this version: [2]
Dupliactions have been rmoved (as Zero corretly pointed out), each section is as NPOV as possible (I hope but I can be proven wrong) and all the info - including their postive contribution to what goes on in the checkpoints is mentioned. Zeq 13:20, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- We are going to have criticism in the lead section when hell freezes over. --Zero 13:35, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- This is not a very strong argument so I reverted it back to this version: [3] and i suggest that if you have real arguments you raise them at the mediation yiou were offered to participate. Zeq 14:13, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- Zero, what's the problem with having criticism in the lead? The intro should provide an overview of the whole topic, good and bad. SlimVirgin (talk) 15:27, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- Well, I don't see any criticism or even factual reporting of the many well-known and well-documented human rights abuses carried out by the organization in question in the intro to the Israel Defence Forces article. And there we are talking about facts that have been reported by the likes of Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International. Here we appear to be talking about criticism by the IDF (what a surprise) and by NGO Monitor, a website maintained by an Israeli lobbying group (the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs) for the purpose of criticising Palestinian and Israeli human rights groups. This sort of criticism is so obvious, and the parties involved so interested, that it would be arguably be a bit silly to include it in the lead even if such was the norm in other articles about controversial organizations. Palmiro | Talk 00:43, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Needs a source
I removed this from the intro: "While the women presence in checkpoints have caused security forces to act with more restrain than in the past ..." because it needs to be sourced e.g. by adding "according to ..." SlimVirgin (talk) 15:26, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- SlimVirgin, this can be sourced (at least as an intention of the group) to Kimmerling, Baruch (2003). Politicide: Ariel Sharon's War Against the Palestinians. Verso. ISBN 1859845177, p. 182 onwards in a detailed section on Machsom Watch. The full text is viewable at Amazon. --Ian Pitchford 15:59, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- Hi Ian, I looked at Amazon but they don't have much of the text online. The index has one entry for Machsom Watch on p 182. If you have it there, can you say what it says exactly in relation to the section I removed: "While the women presence in checkpoints have caused security forces to act with more restrain than in the past ..." SlimVirgin (talk) 16:26, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- Their search options are not very user friendly but if you actually do a search on "182" you can access the page. --Ian Pitchford 16:31, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- Hi Ian, I looked at Amazon but they don't have much of the text online. The index has one entry for Machsom Watch on p 182. If you have it there, can you say what it says exactly in relation to the section I removed: "While the women presence in checkpoints have caused security forces to act with more restrain than in the past ..." SlimVirgin (talk) 16:26, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- I tried that, but nothing comes up. It keeps giving me page 119. What do you actually enter into the search field to see the text? SlimVirgin (talk) 16:35, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- Does this link work Slim? --Ian Pitchford 16:49, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- I tried that, but nothing comes up. It keeps giving me page 119. What do you actually enter into the search field to see the text? SlimVirgin (talk) 16:35, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks, Ian, it did work. What do I need to put in the search field myself to get this in future?
- Regarding the disputed section, Kimmerling doesn't seem to shed any light on it. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:53, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- I just searched "182" in the book search field itself. Kimmerling just says that they aim "to prevent the harassment of Palestinians by soldiers themselves", but this European Parliament Report says they have actually reduced the amount of physical violence at checkpoints. --Ian Pitchford 17:10, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- Regarding the disputed section, Kimmerling doesn't seem to shed any light on it. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:53, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- It doesn't actually say that, Ian. It says that physical violence has reduced and that verbal violence has increased. It doesn't describe the violence, say where it's coming from, say when it began to reduce/increase, or say that Machsom is responsible for the reduction/increase. The only hint that the source might be trying to connect the reduction/increase to Machsom Watch is with the word "thus." We need a reputable source who explicitly says what the disputed section said. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:19, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- I understand what you are saying, but I think the meaning of the section is clear. After all it's headed "Machsom Watch" and paragraph three reads "The goals of the group are to monitor the behaviour of soldiers, to ensure that the human rights of Palestinians attempting to enter Israel are protected, and to report back. It can thus be said that today there is much less physical violence than before..." (emphasis added) i.e., the reduction in phyical violence is a consequence of the group's monitoring of the behaviour of soldiers. I don't think this can be read any other way. --Ian Pitchford 18:37, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- It doesn't actually say that, Ian. It says that physical violence has reduced and that verbal violence has increased. It doesn't describe the violence, say where it's coming from, say when it began to reduce/increase, or say that Machsom is responsible for the reduction/increase. The only hint that the source might be trying to connect the reduction/increase to Machsom Watch is with the word "thus." We need a reputable source who explicitly says what the disputed section said. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:19, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- I think it's very weak because there's no detail, and if the author took it from a source, s/he doesn't say which. It's a pretty badly written report overall. If it's true that Machsom Watch has reduced physical violence, but has caused verbal violence to increase, there must be a better source for it somewhere. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:44, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi Slim,
The source is this Talk:Machsom_Watch#From_http:.2F.2Fwww.etgar.info.2Fwatch.html - Is this a good source?
Just a side note (not a source):
I can tell you from my won expiriance (I travel in the west bank for my work with the UN) that this is 100% correct - These women on one hand made a big difference in changing the IDF attitude. IDF has changed many procedure based on watch critisim and presence but sometimes they really disturbe the soldiers and help Palestinians cross to israel without security checks.
The one big problem, in the eyes of many watch women, was that their intentions (the real ones) were never to "improve" the checkpoints but they wanted to cancel them altogether. So now, some of them say that should not help the army improve the checkpoints conditions any more. Tough choice. Zeq 16:04, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks, Zeq. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:26, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- Kimmerling doesn't believe these checkpoints really have anything to do with security and he writes that the women are frequently "mistreated by soldiers manning the checkpoints". --Ian Pitchford 16:10, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- Kimmerling is a lunatic and should not be used a source. Many of these checkpoints are the last gateway into Israel they have everything to do with security. Some of the checkpoints (especially around Nablus and inside Hebron) are internal checkpoints (i.e inside the west bank proper, deep in the west bank) - these checkpoints control Palestinians from one area to another and are therefor mainly designed to protect settler security. The soldeirs are under strict orders to avoid intercaton with the watch women but some of them mistreat the soldiers. I am talking about what i saw and heared. On some occuastion the women's are arrested by police and police maybe mistreating them. never saw a soldier do anything to a watch women. Zeq 16:46, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- Zeq, you have to forget everything you've seen and heard when you're editing Wikipedia. We publish only what reputable sources have published, regardless of whether we personally believe it to be true or false. Kimmerling may very well be a lunatic (I have no idea one way or the other), but he's a scholarly source writing in a relevant field, so he may be used as a source by us. You're welcome, of course, to find a competing source. But first, we have to establish exactly what Kimmerling himself says on this issue. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:51, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- I understand and agree. Just provided my own observation so we will know what info we should be looking for:
- Sources that explain the security justification (for at least some) of the checkpoints.
- On top of that we should look for those who critise kimmelrilg ability to be a trustworthy source. Maybe he has specific field in which he is an expert but surly he is not a military specialist . (nither am I:-) Zeq 18:45, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
NGO monitor
Zeq, could you tell me please why you deleted the quote from the NGO Monitor about the "demonization of Israel"? [4] SlimVirgin (talk) 20:19, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
- My intention was to move it, not to delete it. so if deleted this is a mistake.
- My thinking was:
- to keep the first paragrph NPOV by presenting both major POV: That of Machsom watch and that of IDF (the quote from IDF cheif)
- to concentrate all other (3rd party, individual soldeirs, their mothers) critisim and counter arguments ina seprate section (the bias/ critism/violin section)
- My thinking was:
- It is fine the way it is now. thanks for re-inserting it.
- I agree with what appears to be Zeq's view that the IDF's criticism is far more germaine than that of NGO Monitor. The IDF is the organization that Machsom Watch targets; NGO Monitor is a website maintained by an Israeli lobbying group and perhaps not much worth quoting at all in our articles. It only exists to criticise pro-peace/pro-human rights organizations in Israel and the territories. Do we have any idea of how widely read it is? Palmiro | Talk 00:48, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Zero is arguing on my talk page that there should be no criticism at all in the intro, so perhaps we should deal with that first, and then decide which criticism. Is everyone else agreed that there should be some criticism in the lead? SlimVirgin (talk) 01:10, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think including criticism in the lead makes sense in this article. The purely factual lead is better in my view. It is probably obvious to anyone reading that that the organization's activities are not going to be appreciated by the IDF or by supporters of Israeli practices in the West Bank. I think the example of the IDF article is an instructive one: no criticism in the lead. Factual intros are better than recitations of opposing polemics. Palmiro | Talk 01:17, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Intro
(copied from Zero's and SV's talk pages)
The introductory section of articles is supposed to introduce and define the topic of the article. Machsom Watch is not defined by the attacks that have been made on it. Please look at other articles on organizations and you will see that their leading sections do not include quoted criticism from others. I'm very surprised that you are taking this position contrary to normal practice and contrary to the obvious requirements of good article structure. Perhaps you will go to IDF and quote Machsom Watch in the first paragraph? I feel very strongly about this and am prepared to go to the wall on it. --Zero 00:16, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Just about every intro I write contains criticism of the person or group, assuming there has been substantive criticism from reputable sources. Machsom Watch is not defined for you by the criticism that's made of it, but it is so defined by others. The point is to make sure that the criticism is not trivial, and that it comes from a good source. I added the criticism from the NGO Monitor. Zeq added the statement from the IDF chief, which personally I would leave out of the intro, so I don't know whether you're objecting to one or both. You'll have to show me where it says it's "normal practice" to leave criticism out of an intro. Intros should provide an overview of what's to come. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:29, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- So you will support me to add criticism from, say, Amnesty International and the EU to the introductory section of IDF? When we are done with that, we can go to Israel and put in a nice quotation from Hamas right at the top. This is going to be fun, don't you think? --Zero 00:36, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:The perfect article: " ... begins with a definition and clear description of the subject; the lead section introduces and explains the subject and its significance clearly and accurately, without going into excess detail."
- Wikipedia:Lead section: "The lead should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it could stand on its own as a concise version of the article." SlimVirgin (talk) 00:46, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Amnesty and the EU are very reputable sources. Hamas, whether you like them or not, is the elected representative of the Palestinian residents of the OT. But that is not the point. There would be fierce opposition to quoting any criticism right at the top of those articles and I would also oppose it. If you would oppose it, you are being inconsistent. --Zero 00:51, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- You can't compare Israel and the IDF with Hamas. Regardless of your personal feelings about the first two, they're reognized throughout the world as being a legitimate state and its armed forces. Hamas on the other hand is widely viewed as a highly controversial terrorist organization, and because of that, there is criticism in the intro. It would be utterly bizarre if there weren't. Saying in their defense that they're the elected representatives of the Palestinian people would be like defending the Nazis just because they were elected by the German people. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:00, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- You didn't address the issue. I am not opposed to quoting the IDF position on Machsom Watch. They should be quoted. I'm opposed to quoting them in the introduction. This is being done by Zeq et al purely because they want this article to be not about Machsom Watch, but to be a critique of Machsom Watch. This is POV-pushing and has to be opposed. --Zero 01:09, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- I am addressing the issue. I'm talking about the lead. The article (and intro) isn't about Machsom Watch's view of Machsom Watch, or the IDF's view of Machsom Watch, but both, and other credible sources' views too. We don't allow organizations to self-describe where the descriptions differs from that of reputable published sources. See WP:V and WP:RS. And the lead is meant to sum up the important points of the whole article, criticism and all. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:15, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- An actual quotation from the IDF is not "summary", nor "concise" and is in fact "excessive detail" for the introduction, so both the sections of guidelines you quoted imply that it does not belong in the introduction. It is also not a disagreement on the nature of Machsom Watch, but a disagreement with Machsom Watch on the nature of the checkpoints. The other "quotation" being put in the introduction is from the activist organization NGO-Monitor, who are not significant enough to be quoted in the introduction (I would say not significant enough to be quoted at all). Btw, an organization in some ways opposite to Machsom Watch is Women in Green. Comparing that article to this one is quite instructive in several ways. --Zero 01:36
- I am a bit mystified by the precise meaning in relation to this article of your comment that "we don't allow organizations to self-describe where the descriptions differs from that of reputable published sources". What are the other reputable published sources in this case, and how does their description of Machsom Watch's basic activities differ from its own? Palmiro | Talk 01:32, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- I was stating that as our policy. In relation to this article, it means that if Machsom Watch says of itself: "We are a wonderful group of really nice women," and another reputable published source says: "They are in fact a bunch of troublemakers," we don't publish the first without publishing the second too. A published source could be the IDF being quoted by a reputable newspaper. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:39, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- I am a bit mystified by the precise meaning in relation to this article of your comment that "we don't allow organizations to self-describe where the descriptions differs from that of reputable published sources". What are the other reputable published sources in this case, and how does their description of Machsom Watch's basic activities differ from its own? Palmiro | Talk 01:32, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- As I said, the IDF quotation being put in the introduction is not at all expressing a disagreement on the nature of Machsom Watch. It expresses a disagreement over the nature of the checkpoints, which is the topic of several other articles. So as well as being too much detail for the introduction it is marginal for the article. It isn't even much of a disagreement. In fact most MW women would agree with the statement that stopping suicide bombers is a humanitarian act; what they disagree with is the way this is accomplished and the effect those procedures have on innocent people. --Zero 01:53, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- The quote from IDF express disagreement on the core issue of human rights. We can not describe watch (using words from their own web site or from any other source) in a way that create a POV impression about human rights. We must NPOV that impression, there is no bettr way to do than with the rsponse they got. The issue is not "To quote IDF or not quote IDF". I would be very happy if the answer to watch will be given by the UN but they did not respond. So we only have IDF as a source.
- I am glad we got so far in this debate. It is a clear example of the bias some editors are trying to push throughout wikipedia. The refusal to participate in the mediation is yet unclear to me because he mediation was offered on this very issue: NPOV.
- NPOV has to be kept on all issues . The narrow view prsented by zero - that in this artucle we will keep NPOV to the article subject only but can be POV about other issues such as human rights - is not according to policy .
- NPOV must mean that the introduction is NPOV.
- The introduction must be NPOV about any and all subjects (not limited to views and counter views of mchasom watch modus operndy). The broader aspets which come out of their acttions, goals etc..must be dealt with in an NPOV manner - in every sentense, in every paragraph.
- However, this is not an article on human rights so your argument does not apply. --Zero 05:38, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Your answer capture the essence of our discussion:
- My argument is that NPOV in wikipedia must apply everywhere, on every subject .
- You can not use an article about a "humaright right" organization who monitor the IDF actions just to decribe the organization itself in an NPOV manner while using it (in a subtale way) to accept the organization POV about the IDF and as a result present the Israel's actions in an unblanced in wikipedia. Zeq 05:54, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
This is utterly bizarre. The intro must be NPOV. Zero has decided that, by definition, criticism constitutes "too much detail," which is nonsense. I agree that we should discuss whose criticism to use, whether the IDF's or the NGO Monitor's, or someone else's. But the idea that there should be no criticism at all in the intro, when there is criticism readily available from reputable sources, is contrary to the NPOV policy and to all the guidelines about how to write a good lead section. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:58, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
I think the intro as it is now is very good. It does not directly quote the IDF Chief of Staff, but summarizes the IDF's accusations and provides sources. You also cannot say that it's too detailed or takes too much space, because it's only 2 lines even compared to MW's stated aims, which is a 3-clause list, making it also grab more attention than the criticism. Good job SlimVirgin. I hope Zero doesn't revert this. On a site note, I too am baffled about why Zero doesn't agree to the RFM. If he is indeed enforcing Wikipedia policy, he should win the RFM, otherwise he should admit he is wrong. Avoiding the RFM is strange. -- Y Ynhockey (Talk) Y 09:21, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks, Ynhockey. Credit due to El C who was the first to summarize the criticism. SlimVirgin (talk) 09:38, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Reverets by Zero
The revrts by zero are getting disruptive. there was nothing in talk to justify the last revert[5]. Zero is engaging in edit war. I will not participate in the edit war. For the last time, I ask Zero to participate in Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation#Machsom_Watch. (The issue is now clear: NPOV or not NPOV ?) Zeq 06:46, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Zero, you seem to have reverted fives times in the last 24 hours. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:53, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Alternative version
I've put up my version for consideration. It balances the criticism with some praise and adopts the new format for references. Please feel free to amend it as appropriate. --Ian Pitchford 10:17, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Ian, there seems to be agreement above for the intro you reverted, which is a compromise between no criticism and the more extensive criticism in the previous version. Would you mind restoring it, please? SlimVirgin (talk) 10:22, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, it took us a while to agree on a lead that had NPOV, the new version is not as good because it doesn't mention any criticism in the lead. Also, Reactions from the IDF and others section is just an unorganized combination of parts of the old Criticism section and the overview. However, I do like the transformation to the new references format (I've done that in some articles, it's better than sticking external links everywhere). -- Y Ynhockey (Talk) Y 10:31, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- What is now missing is the NPOV of the issue of Human Rights. The organization present itself as Human rights and against the exisrence of checkpoint.
- While the behaviour of soldiers in the checkpoints indeed need to be fixed, the actual existence of the checkpoints ids to protect human Rights of Israelis (to prevent suicide bombers from reaching israel) - this secind part is not in the 1st paragrph reverted by Zero, Ian and Palmiro) and need to be added again. Zeq 11:23, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- I don't see this agreement for the current version. Both I and Zero0000 have disagreed strongly. Palmiro | Talk 18:15, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- While the behaviour of soldiers in the checkpoints indeed need to be fixed, the actual existence of the checkpoints ids to protect human Rights of Israelis (to prevent suicide bombers from reaching israel) - this secind part is not in the 1st paragrph reverted by Zero, Ian and Palmiro) and need to be added again. Zeq 11:23, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
We now have two counter-arguments sections
It does not make sense to have them both. This is getting ridiculus. Article sections should be NPOV and written well without duplication.
It is kind of a POV fork in the article itself: Zero gets the 1st paragrph to be as he wants it and in return we get two sections of counter-reactions. I do not accept this kind of solution .
The 1st paragrph need to be as short as possible and NPOV. The best way to do it is with the qoute from the IDF about why the checkpoints are need from a human rights perspective. Zeq 11:39, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
It is getting more ridiculus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Machsom_Watch&diff=43285824&oldid=43278316 Zeq 13:53, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- I just reverted that edit, honestly I don't know what Ian Pitchford was trying to do. But Israel Defense Forces checkpoint might be an appropriate place for that sort of criticism. P.S. The Guardian should probably not be used as a reliable news source, even if you intend to edit that other article. -- Y Ynhockey (Talk) Y 14:01, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- There is no reason that the Guardian should not be used as a reliable news source, and Linda Grant (the author inter alia of When I Lived in Modern Times) is hardly hostile to Israel, to put it mildly. Palmiro | Talk 14:43, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- The problem is lack of NPOV (there is no problem using Guardian as souce as long as we keep the intro NPOV) Zeq 15:21, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- All - Please check carefully that sources added to this article do support the claims made. --Ian Pitchford 17:11, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Palmiro, why did you bring back the change without discussing, especially than two users were opposed to it? Also, just for the record, I wasn't opposed to it because of The Guardian (that was just a side note), but because someone's opinions on checkpoints in general are completely irrelevant to this article (unless this someone is MW, which it isn't in your edit). -- Y Ynhockey (Talk) Y 17:22, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Which edit of mine are you referring to? Palmiro | Talk 17:36, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Moving to left The one that Zeq linked to at the top of this section. Also, I mistakenly said that the quote is irrelevant to the article, which it isn't (Zeq pointed this out), what I meant was that it was irrelevant to the lead section. (You can see in the edit summary of my revert.) -- Y Ynhockey (Talk) Y 18:32, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- That edit was made by Ian, not by me. Palmiro | Talk 18:54, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Oh yeah, sorry. I need to stay off editing Wikipedia today :( have been sick for a few days now, hopefully I haven't made any mistakes which I didn't notice, other than on this talk page (made quite a few). -- Y Ynhockey (Talk) Y 20:47, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
suggestion
as of this version [6] we still have two sections of counter-argument against the group (not sure why the IDF is "singld out" for a seprate section.
We also now have "prais" in the lead.
I suggest we shortenm the lead insteda of making it long.
IMHO the only description that should be in the lead is:
- what is the group
- what do they want (checkpoints removed and until then that palestinian humn rights honored
- positive contribution so far and...
- IDF respponse why the checkpoints existense protect human rights of Israelis - i.e. Mchsom watch does not have monopoly on human rights
all the critism , praise etc should be off the lead. We should make the lead to stand on it's own.
Zeq 18:33, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not sure exactly how this would work. Could you try and draw up a lead along these lines and post it here on the talk page so we can discuss it? Palmiro | Talk 18:37, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
sure, I'll do that. why don't everybody stp editing for a while ? Zeq 18:40, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Your proposed lead is basically what we had before Palmiro's edit (the one you linked to in the previous section). Maybe it's better to analyze that lead and either agree on it or suggest improvements? The lead was:
Machsom Watch is a human rights organization composed exclusively of Israeli women. The word machsom is Hebrew for "checkpoint", in reference to Israel Defense Forces checkpoints in the West Bank and between the West Bank and Israel. The group also calls itself "Women for Human Rights".
The group's stated aims, according to its website, are to:
- monitor the behavior of soldiers and police at checkpoints;
- ensure that the human and civil rights of Palestinians attempting to enter Israel are protected;
- record and report the results of their observations to the widest possible audience, from the decision-making level to that of the general public. [7]
Some members of the group see their role as protesting against the existence of the checkpoints. [8] [9]
Machsom Watch has been criticized by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and by several non-governmental organizations and individuals for allegedly disrupting the operation of checkpoints, showing hostility toward the soldiers, and making false accusations against them. [10] [11]
Other than not using the new reference format, I think this lead is by far the best we've had so far. -- Y Ynhockey (Talk) Y 18:45, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Well, I still don't see why this article should include criticism in the lead when other articles, such as the one on the IDF itself, don't. And I think in this instance that the criticism in question, coming from an organisation whose abuses the group in question exists to document and prevent, is so predictable as to be of doubtful merit for inclusion in the lead even if such criticism was normaly included in our lead paragraphs. Thirdly, adding only negative reaction to the group is unbalanced. Finally, I personally think Zeq's version below is in a way more interesting, as it addresses a very fundamental point about the group's purpose. Palmiro | Talk 19:10, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, the article on NGO Monitor, an organization of a similar stature to MW, includes criticism in the lead. Gush Shalom also mentions criticism in passing (the article is small too, it basically only includes GS's stated aims). However, it is of little use comparing MW to the IDF because they are completely different organizations. Not only is the IDF much larger and more influential, it also deals with a myriad of issues, while MW deals with just one, meaning criticisms of this one thing they do is the same as criticism about all of MW's actions. IMO, the criteria for inclusion of criticisms in the lead should be as follows (sketchy outline):
- The source (of the criticism) should be at least as influential and have the same (or higher) worldwide importance than the article's subject.
- The source should directly deal with the article's subject, and must be one of the few, if not the only, source that the article's subject deals with.
- There should be many organizations supporting this source's criticism, preferrably important organizations.
- The source should not only have a certain degree of importance, but also have a reputation for moderate criticism (when it criticizes an organization). This means that, for instance, Iranian president Ahmadeenjad, should not be quoted saying 'Israel is a cancer that should be wiped off the map'. This basically applies to the reputable and balanced sources policy by which sources like Arutz 7 are not allowed.
- Maybe I forgot a few, but these are basically the guidelines by which, I think, the IDF has the right to criticize MW in the lead section, while the opposite cannot be said.
- -- Y Ynhockey (Talk) Y 20:01, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- The artcle on NGO Monitor doesn;t mention any criticism in the lead as far as I can see. Neither does the one on the Klu Klux Klan, listed above by Pecher as an example of such criticism being included. In other words, including criticism seems exceedingly rare, if most of the examples we are being presenetd with turn out to be examples of the opposite. I don't think criticism should be included in lead paragraphs in general, but where it is necessary your suggested principles seem like good ones. But, on the basis of these very suggested principles, 1. criticism from groups like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International should indeed be appearing in the lead, though not from Machsom Watch, 2. criticism shouldn't be included in the lead for this article, as there don't seem to be "many organizations" and certainly not important ones, supporting the IDF criticism. Palmiro | Talk 20:15, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Just checked NGO Monitor again and it seems JayJG removed the criticism yesterday (maybe they agreed on it, I haven't read the discussion). This could be a good precedent, although personally I think it would be more appropriate to have a discussion on Wikipedia talk:Guide to writing better articles/Lead section and attract more editors to agree on whether criticism should be included in lead sections at all, and if so, what criteria should be followed.
- On another note, MW has certainly been criticized by many organizations (practically every right-wing organization in Israel), including NGO Monitor which is pretty important (again, compared to MW itself), Women in Green (the 'archrival' of MW, so you could say), and from what I remember the Yesha Council, which are all fairly important in the scope we're talking about. As I said, the organizations which criticize should all be measured against the article's subject, otherwise we could have tiny organizations with no criticism only because larger bodies don't have time to waste on them, or huge organizations with a library of criticism because every upstart trying to get noticed slams it.
- -- Y Ynhockey (Talk) Y 20:37, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- The artcle on NGO Monitor doesn;t mention any criticism in the lead as far as I can see. Neither does the one on the Klu Klux Klan, listed above by Pecher as an example of such criticism being included. In other words, including criticism seems exceedingly rare, if most of the examples we are being presenetd with turn out to be examples of the opposite. I don't think criticism should be included in lead paragraphs in general, but where it is necessary your suggested principles seem like good ones. But, on the basis of these very suggested principles, 1. criticism from groups like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International should indeed be appearing in the lead, though not from Machsom Watch, 2. criticism shouldn't be included in the lead for this article, as there don't seem to be "many organizations" and certainly not important ones, supporting the IDF criticism. Palmiro | Talk 20:15, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, the article on NGO Monitor, an organization of a similar stature to MW, includes criticism in the lead. Gush Shalom also mentions criticism in passing (the article is small too, it basically only includes GS's stated aims). However, it is of little use comparing MW to the IDF because they are completely different organizations. Not only is the IDF much larger and more influential, it also deals with a myriad of issues, while MW deals with just one, meaning criticisms of this one thing they do is the same as criticism about all of MW's actions. IMO, the criteria for inclusion of criticisms in the lead should be as follows (sketchy outline):
European parliament quote
The following paragraoh has been inserted into the article:
In December, 2005 the European Parliament's Delegation for Relations with Israel found that 'The goals of the group are to monitor the behaviour of soldiers, to ensure that the human rights of Palestinians attempting to enter Israel are protected, and to report back. It can thus be said that, today, there is much less physical violence than before, but verbal and behavioural violence has increased'
This quote conveys no new information to the reader, as the statement essentially repeats the stated goals of MW, which are given in the intro to the article. It does not follow directly from the quote that physical violence declined thanks to MW's efforts. If one reads the entire section of the report titled "8. Machsom Watch - women for human rights", one can see that the section contains lots of extraneous information unrelated directly Machsom Watch, but concerning checkpoints in general: for example, the sentence "The worst situation is in Hebron, where the presence of a 500 especially violent settlers has resulted in the city being divided in areas H1 and H2, something which makes impossible the daily life of 65,000 Arabs." or a statement that "[i]n 2004, 53 babies were actually born at checkpoints". None of this has anything to do with MW, so I have removed the paragraph. Pecher Talk 18:34, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Looking carefully through the report, it appears that it generally consists of summaries of the views of the EU delegation's interlocutors, and that this quote is more likely to represent the views expressed by Machsom Watch members to the delegation than any conclusion the delegation itself came to, so I think you were right to take it out. Palmiro | Talk 18:51, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Suggested lead section
Machsom Watch is a human rights organization composed exclusively of Israeli women.
The word machsom is Hebrew for "checkpoint", in reference to Israel Defense Forces checkpoints inside the West Bank and along entry points from the West Bank into Israel. The group also calls itself "Women for Human Rights".
According to its website[[12] ], the group's aims are to:
- monitor the behavior of soldiers at checkpoints;
- ensure the human rights of Palestinians attempting to enter Israel via checkpoints;
- report their observations to wide audience: from the decision-making level to the general public.
Most members of the group see their role as protesting against the existence of the checkpoints. [13] [14]
The women presence in checkpoints had a positive effect of reducing phisical violence in the checkpoints and caused security forces to act with more restrain[15].
Machsom Watch has been criticized by the Israel Defense Forces in disrputing the operation of checkpoints, hostility toward the troops and legedly makng false accusations. During a two-hour meeting with members of the group in March 2006, IDF Chief of Staff Dan Halutz told the women that: "Humanitarianism is not exclusively owned by Machsom Watch and it is tested not only at the checkpoints, but also in preventing suicide bombers from reaching the markets of Tel Aviv and Netanya." [16]
- It's actually pretty good, but I still think there should be no direct quotes in the lead section, instead there should be reported speech. By the way, double new lines don't work within blockquote, you might want to add line breaks. -- Y Ynhockey (Talk) Y 20:04, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- I'm fairly neutral about this. It's more balanced than the other "with-criticism" version but it doesn't read very well, and really confirms me in my opinion that this sort of disputation does not belong in the lead. Palmiro | Talk 20:20, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry but I don't understand last comment. please be specific what's wrong.Zeq 20:31, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- I just don't think it flows very well; it introduces very specific material into what should be a general overview. It's more a stylistic question. Palmiro | Talk 20:38, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry but I don't understand last comment. please be specific what's wrong.Zeq 20:31, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Style prefernces are individual but i am sure my style can be improved. What i tried to do is to summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it could stand on its own (as a concise version of the article itself) Zeq 20:57, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
The Irish Times quote
The article now contains the following sentence sourced to The Irish Times: "The Israeli army claims that it has listened to Machsom Watch and is 'implementing training programmes to enable soldiers to carry out their work in the 'most moral and respectful way possible'." It is by no means self-evident that the statement from the IDF actually says that the programs were implemented in response to MW's criticism, so I am asking the editor who inserted the quote to provide a fuller quote from The Irish Times's article. It would also be great to have the exact quote of the IDF's statement so that we could ascertain that it was not quoted out of context. To me, the reference to training programs sounds like a routine response to criticism, not a change adopted under pressure. Pecher Talk 19:26, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
- Just FYI (based on my OR - this is not for the article): The IDF has indeed did this as result of watch critism. Zeq 20:07, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
NGO Monitor
Organizations, groups, etc. are not commonly called by the name of the person we imagine to head them, for any number of reasons. To begin with, the groups have proper names; if we thought it should always be called "Dore Gold's organization NGO Monitor" then we should change the name of the article to Dore Gold's organization NGO Monitor. Second, while Dore Gold, as the current head of the JCPA, is also the publisher of NGO Monitor, the actual editor of NGO Monitor is Gerald Steinberg. Third, Dore Gold could move on to another job next week, and we can't be going around updating all the articles to now call it "Moshe Stern's organization NGO Monitor". Fourth, you wouldn't describe other organizations this way; for example, you wouldn't describe Machshom Watch as "Ronnee Jaeger's organization Machshom Watch", or Amnesty International as "Irene Khan's organization Amnesty International". Jayjg (talk) 03:25, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
- I agree. --Zero 04:25, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Truncated edit summary
Often my edits are uploaded suddenly when I'm still typing the edit summary. Does that happen to anyone else? The "arbeit macht frei" graffiti written on one of the "Hope of us all" signs was claimed by the group "Jews against Genocide" that has nothing to do with Machsom Watch. Quoting MW's denial without noting that the denial was proved correct is very naughty. If this incident is in the article at all (I vote "no") it should be reported honestly: as a malicious slander against MW that was refuted. --Zero 04:04, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
- It isn't "very naughty" unless the person who entered that info is privy to that, right? Right. El_C 04:38, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
- So instead of adding that, you removed the whole thing? What were you thinking? El_C 04:40, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
- In other words, please explain why you "vote no" and why you failed to assume good faith. El_C 04:44, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
- So instead of adding that, you removed the whole thing? What were you thinking? El_C 04:40, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
- fact: The idea that the sign "hope for us all" that wa splaced by the IDF on the new checkpoint terminal building (it is like a gigentic border crossing more than a checkpoint) is better be replaced by "arbit macht fry" was raised by Machsom watch.
- fact2: The women who took responsibility for the act, were visiting the checkpoint with Machsom watch women. Zeq 04:48, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
- It's a terminal. But, so what? That dosen't mean anything. El_C 04:50, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
- Zero, if you have material to add, do so, but PLEASE stop deleting other people's work if it's written properly. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:53, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Writing
PLEASE stop reverting. The intro must have some criticism in it, no matter how brief. People who are reverting are not taking care to ensure that the material is not repeated elsewhere in the text, or that it flows correctly. Others are slapping in quotes from British newspapers without correct the spelling or the punctuation so it's consistent with the rest of the text. There were also sentences ending with a comma, and the material from the Guardian is arguably original research because this article isn't about whether the checkpoints should exist. Also, could I request that the references are not placed in the middle of sentences; it's hard enough to read for flow with them at the end. Please can we try to pay some attention to the writing? SlimVirgin (talk) 04:51, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
- Unfortunately this always happens with highly disputed articles. I made a bunch of edits to Israeli Arab to make the article much more coherent, which sparked a huge debate (not unlike the one we're engaged in now), and in turn returned the article to its previous poor writing style and coherence. I have not yet thought of a way to combat this, although we could protect the page and agree on a final version to use, then unprotect and implement this version. -- Y Ynhockey (Talk) Y 04:57, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
- Here you go, look [17] El C, you moved a chunk out of the intro and slapped it in history, when some of it is critcism and needs to go in that section, and some of it elsewhere. You can't just move chunks around without re-reading the page. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:58, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
- Please do not bloat the lead. It's poor form. Please find a way to condense the lead in relation to other setions. That's all I ask. El_C 05:02, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
- When it was condensed to one sentence, Zero deleted that too. Why don't you condense instead of deleting? Why does Zero delete the grafitti section instead of explaining? Why delete, delete, delete? SlimVirgin (talk) 05:05, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
- Please read Wikipedia:Lead section: "The lead should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it could stand on its own as a concise version of the article." SlimVirgin (talk) 05:07, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
- I tried reading it, but found it too boring. I really dislike articles where the lead is that lengthy in relation to other sections. The manual of style cannot revert me, nor can it ask me to stop reverting. It is totally powerless! El_C 05:10, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
To slimVirgin
You wrote "The intro MUST have some criticism".
No, the lead should be 100% NPOV (not 50% NPOV, not 95%). It should have the correct amount of balance to balance any POV that is expressed (even by hint) in it. Why ?
Because it is policy that the lead "should stand on it's own".
The lead should be treated as a "mini article".
Any article, (including the lead) should be NPOV (100% NPOV).
This is why it is important to explain that exitense of the checkpoints is also a human rights issue (protecting lifes of Israelis from terror). I don't care if we do it in our words but the quote from halutz is accurate and concise about this very issue:
"Humanitarianism is not exclusively owned by Machsom Watch and it is tested not only at the checkpoints, but also in preventing suicide bombers from reaching the markets of Tel Aviv and Netanya."
Also:
The women positive contribution in changing the situation in checkpoints is worth being in the lead.
Zeq 04:55, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
- The lead needs to be much more concise in relation to other sections. If editors are unable to condense it accordingly, it will have no criticisms. It's that simple. El_C 04:58, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
- Then condense, but please don't remove it all. The condensed version kept getting deleted too. Why are some editors determined to defend this organization rather than just report what the published sources are saying? SlimVirgin (talk) 05:01, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
- Zeq is correct. The lead is meant to be a mini-article. It is supposed to be able to stand on its own as a summary of what's to follow. I've posted links above to the Wikipedia pages about how to write intros. SlimVirgin (talk) 05:03, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
- Then condense, but please don't remove it all. The condensed version kept getting deleted too. Why are some editors determined to defend this organization rather than just report what the published sources are saying? SlimVirgin (talk) 05:01, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
How to write a lead
Wikipedia: Lead section: "The lead should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it could stand on its own as a concise version of the article." SlimVirgin (talk) 05:08, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
- This is a farce. SlimVirgin (talk) 05:14, 12 March 2006 (UTC)