Talk:Tenebrae (film)
Latest comment: 19 years ago by Jack O'Lantern in topic US release date
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This article needs...
this sentence tidied up: "a metal sculpture with sharp spikes that lands on, and gorily impales, the demented writer"- FIXED (I hope!)Hal Raglan 22:03, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
fairuse images need fairuse rationale- Not sure what you mean. Please explain.Hal Raglan 22:03, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- Okay, done. Hal Raglan 01:47, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- more on the lucas & mcdonagh writings in "response" section, as described in peer review.
also did it get labelled a "video nasty" in britain? according to [1]: "Tenebrae (1982) was banned on video in the UK during the 1980s because of British Board of Film Classification's fears about its theme of sexual violence. One scene that provoked particular offence depicted a young semi-naked “woman” being beaten by one of her lovers. It was the centrality of this scene that provoked one critic, Mark Le Fanu, to argue that Argento was preoccupied with “devising novel and increasingly nasty ways” (4) of killing his female characters. However, the actress in the scene was actually a transsexual actor, once again indicating Argento's ability to manipulate even the views of his outraged critics. " also see the 2 external links in the video nasty article, both discuss the cutting & banning of Tenebrae.- Added info re: the film's "Video Nasty" status and subsequent video history.Hal Raglan 18:00, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- Have included additional McDonagh and Lucas comments, most of them in the new "Themes" section.Hal Raglan 23:25, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
- my only issue here is that "reel.com" and "ozus world movie review" are neither well-known, established, or reputable so are there reviews really notable? there should definitely be some negative criticism but i would prefer to see specific negative comments from the argento/horror experts (mcdonagh, jones, newman, kermode, lucas etc), or other more reputable sources than the ones currently used. Zzzzz 23:49, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with you on those two writers; I had never heard of them prior to starting my research. As I looked for negative reviews, I used the usual sources: DVD Beaver, DVD Basen, MRQE, and imdb.com. As it turns out, the film really is generally considered to be one of Argento's best efforts and negative views from established writers are pretty difficult to find. (Tim Lucas reconsidered the film to a certain extent recently and has made some negative comments that perhaps could be incorporated -- but overall he still likes the movie). I couldn't locate anything Kim Newman has said about the film other than generalities in his Nightmare Movies book. I will do a search for Mark Kermode and see what I come up with. By the way, I have a similar problem with a change you've made to the final sentence of the second paragraph: "and is generally regarded as Argento's most personal film to date." You then link to a reviewer every bit as obscure as the reel.com and ozus world moview review writers. One unknown reviewer suggesting the film is Argento's most personal does not mean its a generally held view. I just did a quick search thru Google and on the first page the following movies are described on various websites as his "most personal": The Stendhal Syndrome, Trauma, and Opera; one site notes that Argento has claimed Phenomena as being "my most personal", although it doesn't provide a link to an actual quote stating that. I think I will delete that particular addition; most of your other edits look good, tho! Hal Raglan 01:29, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
- my only issue here is that "reel.com" and "ozus world movie review" are neither well-known, established, or reputable so are there reviews really notable? there should definitely be some negative criticism but i would prefer to see specific negative comments from the argento/horror experts (mcdonagh, jones, newman, kermode, lucas etc), or other more reputable sources than the ones currently used. Zzzzz 23:49, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
- Have included additional McDonagh and Lucas comments, most of them in the new "Themes" section.Hal Raglan 23:25, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
- Added info re: the film's "Video Nasty" status and subsequent video history.Hal Raglan 18:00, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
the musical score should be discussed in a bit more detail than it is at present.- Added info on Goblin in the "Production" section and a new "Soundtrack" section with full info on the soundtrack album.Hal Raglan 18:00, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
a new section "themes" with discussion about the primary themes of the film, which i think are "aberrant sexuality","the films & violence debate" and "the whodunit formula" (each of those could get a subsection, i provided external links about them). maybe "light and darkness" is also a theme but i dont know the film well enough. i'm sure mcdonahg, alan jones, tim lucas etc also have said something on these matters.- Based on your suggestion, I've added a "Themes" section. I didn't necessarily agree with some of your ideas, but the "aberrant sexuality" theme was definitely addressed in depth by a few writers, so I incorporated that one. Consider this a quickly written rough first draft version, to be tweaked, or completely rehauled, in the future by anyone who is willing to have a go at it.Hal Raglan 23:25, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
- looks good, although one-pgraph subsections are usually problematic (they should be either merged into another section or expanded to 2 pgraphs). also if "light and darkness" could somehow be squeezed in here as a theme (but avoiding original research) it could give a sensible place to put the "tenebre or tenebrae" stuff. Zzzzz 23:49, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
- Based on your suggestion, I've added a "Themes" section. I didn't necessarily agree with some of your ideas, but the "aberrant sexuality" theme was definitely addressed in depth by a few writers, so I incorporated that one. Consider this a quickly written rough first draft version, to be tweaked, or completely rehauled, in the future by anyone who is willing to have a go at it.Hal Raglan 23:25, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
- also discuss any allusions/references to other works e.g. maybe dressed to kill, does it refer back to his peevious giallo at all?
- a new section "legacy" discussing the impact the film had, did argento make references back to it in later work, how did his work change after this, did it make any pop-cultural impact, did the goblin theme become a dancefloor hit, did other films reference this one (a brian de palma film did for sure).
- expand the "production" section - did any cast or crew talk about the film ands its production etc. was it a nice experience or a nasty one? did argento and nicolodi fight or get along? i believe the alan jones books on argento would help here.
- Expanded slightly. Unfortunately, Argento's audio commentary on the Tenebrae Anchor Bay DVD is frustratingly vague as to production details, and the usually talkative John Saxon has repeatedly said he can't remember a thing about making the movie. Alan Jones didn't start writing comprehensive production reports on Argento's films until Opera, so his books probably won't be of much help. I'll incorporate anything else I can find, but right now that's all I could locate.Hal Raglan 21:18, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
- further images, reviews etc can be found at darkdreams.org: e.g. here is the original review from staerburst magazine: http://www.darkdreams.org/reviews/tenebrae1.html and here is lots of lobbycards, poster art etc: http://www.darkdreams.org/reviews/tenebrae.shtml
- I've added a few more reviews, including negative ones to balance things out. Not sure if the article really needs more images at this time; maybe after additional expansion.Hal Raglan 22:08, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- if this is all done (and typing "tenebrae argento" into google brings up a lot of material) there will be no reason to reduce the "plot" section anymore as it will no longer dominate the article.
lead should be expanded to summarize the entire article.- Expanded; please comment Hal Raglan 22:03, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Zzzzz 19:24, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- the "tenebrae or tenebre" bit could probably be incorporated into one of the new sections, but its not a major problem.
- I wonder if this should simply be mentioned in the lead? I think that may seem slightly clumsy, though. I mentioned on the peer review page that I actually like having this info in a separate subsection for easy reference, but I'm open to suggestions.Hal Raglan 22:08, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Schizombie issues
This is a relatively minor point, but the soundtrack listing takes up a lot of space. Could it be made smaller, or put into columns, or a picture alongside it to fill the white space? Or don't other people see that as a problem? Also would it be worth mentioning that a spiky metal sculpture also tips onto a lead actor in Argento's Bird with Crystal Plumage? Шизомби 22:15, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- Its definitely worth mentioning the Crystal Plumage reference. One of the things I hope to do when I get the time is write a section showing how "self-reflexive" Argento was in Tenebrae to his earlier giallos. And I'll see if I can reduce the font size for the offending soundtrack listing. Hal Raglan 17:36, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
- Well, I couldn't figure out how to make the font size smaller or how to turn the info into columns, so I simply moved the track listing to a new, separate article called Tenebrae (soundtrack). I'm slowly working on incorporating the Crystal Plumage reference into the article. It'll get in there eventually!Hal Raglan 21:24, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
- The soundtrack page looks good! I have McDonaugh's book too, and a couple other things that may have stuff on Tenebrae; I'll try to take a look if there's anything worth adding. McDonaugh probably deserves her own article at some point; I certainly agree with the redlinking her name. Шизомби 16:29, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
- Well, I couldn't figure out how to make the font size smaller or how to turn the info into columns, so I simply moved the track listing to a new, separate article called Tenebrae (soundtrack). I'm slowly working on incorporating the Crystal Plumage reference into the article. It'll get in there eventually!Hal Raglan 21:24, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I took a look at Mendrik, Xavier (1996). "Detection and Transgression: The Investigative Drive of the Giallo" in Necronomicon Book One (pages 35-54). A lot of its discussion of Tenebrae seems based on McDonough. I'll have to look at that to compare to see if Mendik has anything original worth including. Шизомби 17:31, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Don't know if this might be useful: "Significantly, until the final revelation, Franciosa has been serving as Argento's mouthpiece — fielding all the questions about violence to women and the ethics of depicting bloody horror that the director must endlessly be faced with. Argento goes out of his way to identify himself with the psycho figures in his movies. In sequences where the killer is seen as a masked shadow or a pair of stylish black leather gloves, Argento himself takes up the knife to dispose of his on-screen victims." Also the art as weapon is mentioned, "In L'Uccello and Tenebrae, works of art are employed as weapons in climactic confrontations that find Musante and Franciosa trapped by viciously spiked modern sculptures." Both from Newman, Kim (1988). Nightmare Movies: A Critical Guide to Contemporary Horror Films, page 106. ISBN 0517573660
Also, I don't know if it would be worth mentioning either something about Sherlock Holmes - Argento's appreciation of Doyle and the quoting of Holmes in the movie, or the (it's been a while since I've seen this) moment where a character mentions they think they have a clue to the solution of the crimes, if only they could put their finger on it - a common moment in several Argento films. Шизомби 20:13, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
- The Newman quote is a good one re: the violent use of a work of art in the endings of Bird and Tenebrae, but I don't know if works better than the DVD Savant one I've already used. (I skimmed thru Nightmare Movies when working on this article and I somehow missed that) Also, in the "Visual Impairment" section I do mention the moment, and exact quote, you bring up about a character trying to "put their finger" on a clue, and remark how it is a common theme in Argento's films. Hal Raglan 21:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
- I blame my visual impairment ;-) Have you come across anything about why Argento chose Tenebrae as the title? Also, in what way was Robin's role famous? I'll happily support the FA nom though. Шизомби 02:05, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
- No, so far nothing concrete about exactly why the film is called Tenebrae. And I guess its probably true that outside of cult/horror fandom, Robins isn't famous at all, so I changed "famously played by a man" to "actually played by a man." Good call. Hal Raglan 03:30, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Comprehensiveness
i think the only things missing now are the 2 points described earlier:
- discuss any allusions/references to other works e.g. maybe dressed to kill, does it refer back to his peevious giallo at all?
- discussing the impact/legacy the film had, did argento make references back to it in later work, how did his work change after this, did it make any pop-cultural impact, did the goblin theme become a dancefloor hit, did other films reference this one (a brian de palma film did for sure).
if they could be addressed i think this article would stand a good chance as a featured article candidate, as the rest is v. good. Zzzzz 16:29, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
- http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0084777/movieconnections mentions possible references, although the problem is they could just be in the mind of the person who submitted them. IMDb sometimes has reasons for the connections; they're hidden - you have to click update, then correct/delete then continue. In this case, there's nothing really useful hidden (only one had a reason given). Шизомби 17:05, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
- I'm working on a section tentatively called "Influences and Influence". Douglas E. Winter has called Tenebrae Argento's most "self-reflexive" film, and he and various other critics, including Tim Lucas, have pointed out specific references to his earlier films. The movie also points back to some non-Argento thrillers and giallos. For influence, Winter believes the film (and Argento's overall directorial style) was at least an indirect inspiration on Donald Cammell's White of the Eye. And of course everybody has noticed Brian De Palma's "homage" in Raising Cain. I'm hoping to get to that section today. As usual, once its been added please continue to add/delete/restructure the article as you see fit.Hal Raglan 17:43, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
- Okay, added two sections: "Influences" and "Legacy", altho the latter is admittedly a bit skimpy and could use some expanding.Hal Raglan 05:22, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Footnote style
should the footnote style be changed to the new style ? Zzzzz 13:51, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
- If that is the new and generally preferred style, I would say the footnotes need to be changed. It looks like it might be a somewhat time consuming process to do so, so obviously I would prefer to keep them as they are. But it depends on what others say. If the consensus is to use the new style, I won't be able to make such a change until much later in the day.Hal Raglan 15:14, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Language
the language in the infobox is listed as "english". should it be "italian/english"? i thought argento films were post-dubbed with people on set speaking whatever language they were more comfortable with? (actually a note about this in the article would be useful too). Zzzzz 22:50, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
- changed the infobox to read "English/Italian" and added some detail in the "Production" section re: language issue, with sources. Hal Raglan 03:33, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
US release date
I have Variety chart archives from the 1980s, listing all theatrical releases in 1987, with this one listed as having been released on Friday, February 13 (by Bedford). I'll get the reference tomorrow and add/cite this info. Although it was undoubtedly a minor release, it's worth noting. Mad Jack O'Lantern 08:22, 21 April 2006 (UTC)