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Talk:Mustafa Kemal Atatürk

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Albanian???

Latest comment: 19 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion

WoW. Didn't realize Ataturk was Albanian in origins but then again this site has several questionable people on its list...Benito Mussolini one of the biggest promoters of fascism opressors of Arberesh in Italy "Albanian"? Proof please. [1] ~Mallaccaos, 4 May 2006

  • Mustafa Kemal Atatürk was %100 Turkish. He was from the Yoruk Turks, a nomadic Turkish group that still lives in Antalya today. The Ottoman Emprie sent a big Turkish population to Balkans to form a stronger order on Europe. Atatürk's ancestors were from this group of people. Some would argue that he had an European look but this is all wrong. He was brown-haired. After his death, Turkish painters showed him as blond in their pictures because Atatürk is representing the sunrise on the Turkish nation. Deliogul 15:25, 3 June 2006 (UTC)Reply

Deliogul wikipedia is not the place to fabricate stories. He was blonde and he had blue eyes. Don't try to frame reality to fit your own ideology. I am a Turk by the way.


If you accept everything that they told to you, this is the outcome. Have you ever seen Atatürk? I am also defending that he was %100 Turkish but sadly I am not even sure if you know anything about Turkish roots, Yoruk Turks and other tribes. Yes, there are maybe millions of blonde Turkic people out there but Atatürk was light brown-haired and this doesn't mean that he can't has blue eyes. Thesedays people(maybe animals I don't know) argue that a blonde person can't be a Turk(they say that just to claim a wrong theory about the origins of Mustafa Kemal Pasha) but the funny thing is Turks can be blonde but actually Atatürk wasn't blonde and I only gave this data because it is interesting, it has nothing to do with ideologies. There is a little difference betwen light brown hair and the blonde hair of Turkish originated people and this is not a fabricated theory. Also stop talking about ideology. In Wikipedia, the only important thing is the academic writing and being polite. A polite person should introduce him/herself to the person that he/she talks to. You read my paragraph but you didn't understand anything and that makes me sad. With respect, the son of the nomadic warriors, Deliogul 11:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)Reply

Excuse me, but wasn't he a dictator?

Latest comment: 19 years ago11 comments8 people in discussion

I didn't even finish the first paragraph. As soon as I saw the line about Kamal promoting democracy, I had to stop. The fact is that while he did institute many admirable reforms, he was in fact an iron-fisted dictator, controling the populace with a one party system similar to that of the Bolshiviks.

How can you say that! Atatürk was the first President of the Turkish Republic. Still i am not sure if you even know what it means to be the "president". He defeated imperialist powers of Great Britain and he was also the first person to wage and to win a war against far- right religious system. Here i give you a citation;

"Thanks to the democracy seeds that he spreaded, Turkish nation won many victories in many hard situation inside and outside of the country. Stalin claimed that Atatürk was a Fascist. Hitler and Mussolini saw him as a Communist and even some said he was a dictator... But his nation called him the father of all Turks"

Atatürk formed democracy in Anatolia, a region that had never seen democracy before... From this moment, be polite. Deliogul 15:18, 3 June 2006 (UTC)Reply

God! Deliogul, please come back when you grow up. Seriously I cannot help myself to comment on what you have been writing about Ataturk. Are you holding a political science degree? Obviously no. Are you familiar with politics? Obviously no. So, how can you just come with this ridicilious partisan defence and dictate fellow authors telling "From this moment, be polite?" What has he told that it offended you?

  • This was only a little detail from a documentary film. Also where do you get the right to insult to me? For example, I don't stand up and say Abraham Lincoln was a dictator. This passage only shows the place of Mustafa Kemal Pasha in the eyes of Turkish people. By the way, I am trying to get an international relations and politics degree so I know a bit and actually more than you know about the issues such as history of Turkey, history of the Ottoman- Seljuk- Hun and Gokturk Empires, regional politics, international politics of Turkey and politics of the other countries in this region. I am repeating it... Please be polite. With respect, the son of the nomadic warriors, Deliogul 11:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)Reply



[hot-headed post deleted by its sender,or returned to it,whatever...].--CAN T 21:41, 13 May 2006 (UTC)Reply

Can, good points. But please keep the level cool :-) Best, Mu5ti 23:48, 13 May 2006 (UTC)Reply

Mr. "Can," First, I am niethor Armenian nor European, but your conclusion that I am merely shows how closed-minded you are about this issue. And dolt? Where did you dig up that fossil of an insult. Anyway, if it doesn't offend you, allow me to use a touch of logic. Let's examine the circumstances under which Kemal came to power. You are wrong that there was no authority in Turkey. It was in fact ruled by the sultan, although he had become little more than a puppet of the two great European powers, Great Britain and France. At the time, those two powers were blatently encouraging a newly imperialistic Greece to invade Turkey, which it did. Kemal rose to power because he defied the orders of the sultan and fought the invaders. This was fine. In fact, it was admirable, eventually winning him the support from the very man he had defied, the sultan. Nevertheless, after he finished negotiating the Treaty of Lausanne, he immediately set out to clamp down on his own people with a strictness similar to the totalitarians that would rise ten years later. The fact is that your assertion that this was necessary to control his country is false. He had nearly total popular support, and only the Muslim fanatics and ethnic minorities resented him. No, his dictatorial measures were aimed at increasing Turkey's (and therefore his own) power by any means necessary, even if it meant crushing ethnic minorities, forcing his country to change its very culture, and stamping out any hope of democracy.

I think you are very off the mark, especially your accusation that he resembled Musollini or Hitler. Ataturk was revolutionary, he wanted to turn the Ottoman empire on its head. People were not ready for this, the majority of society was still argricultural and illiterate, they did not agree with his secularism, his abolition of the sultan, his western dress code, yet these were all measures Ataturk thought necessary to bring Turkey to western civilisational standards. The fact is Turkey was not ready for democracy, you cannot end a 630 year empire and implement a democracy immediately, a period of transition under a strong leader was essential. --A.Garnet 18:39, 14 May 2006 (UTC)Reply

Mr. Garnet, Perhaps you are misunderstanding my reference to the totalitarians. I am in no way implying that Ataturk was "evil" in the sense that Hitler was evil (though his ruthless treatment of ethnic minorities does draw that connection). Nevertheless, like the totalitarians, he aimed to control every aspect of the government, military, and society in order to increase the power of the state. I agree that Turkey could not jump straight to a democratic society, but there was a more moderate way to go about this. If he was really serious about promoting democracy, he would not have disposed of the sultan, and instituted a constitutional monarchy, which has been shown time and time again to be the best path to democracy. No, Ataturk was more concerned about his own power. Also, you mention bringing Turkey to "western civilisational standards." Why would he want to do this? Especially in the aftermath of World War One, it was increasingly difficult to argue that Europe was an enlightened society that would be ideal to emulate. Instead, one must conclude that he was only forcing change in his society in order to make Turkey more powerfull.

Your points are valid enough. A couple of small points, though.
  1. About the constitutional monarchy: your claim about it being "the best path to democracy" is fair, but also keep in mind that fairly fresh in the mind at that time and place were the Ottoman Empire's two previous experiments therewith, which either fizzled out pathetically into nothing at all (the first), or failed dazzlingly into the dictatorship of the Three Pashas (the second).
  2. About it being "increasingly difficult to argue that Europe was an enlightened society" post-World War One: this is true enough from a European perspective (hence Dada), but not necessarily from a perspective (i.e. Mustafa Kemal's) that was not (or at least not wholly) European, and which was, in fact, given to idolizing the West/Europe owing simply to the fact that the Ottoman Empire was in a pretty damned shoddy state for the whole of his life.
Anyway, them's my 2¢. —Saposcat 20:38, 15 May 2006 (UTC)Reply
I think it is easy for us to sit here and write "there was a more moderate way to go about this" and criticse the man for being "ruthless". Why did he remove the Sultan? The Sultan had come to represent corruption and weakness, concerned more with his post, than the plight of his people. The theocracy which characterised the Ottoman empire had held back the technological and economical developments which had allowed the Western nations to surge ahead. When the Sultan agreed to partition Turkey among Western powers do you think Ataturk would allow him to carry on in office once he liberated the country? Ataturk was a Republican, he belived in rationalism and the enlightenment, everything the Sultan stood against. Now you make the accusation Ataturk should not have tried to emulate western standards, but over 80 years later, when western society has defeated facism, communism and theocracy, can you honestly say he made the wrong choice? And your final point, that he wanted to make Turkey more powerful, well...welcome to international relations my friend :) --A.Garnet 20:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)Reply

CAN here.

OK.Calmly...again:

"it was increasingly difficult to argue that Europe was an enlightened society that would be ideal to emulate"

No.Looking from this side/perspective it still was a rich and INDUSTRIOUS continent.Yes,its world leaders might be imperialistic greedy devils,but Ottoman State or what ruin's left of it was infinitesimally small and poorer compared to it.Yes,honor and integrity are lovely ideals,but they don't cloth shivering Anatolian Peasants,nor does it make citizens prosper,nor feed and arm an army.

"he would not have disposed of the sultan, and instituted a constitutional monarchy, which has been shown time and time again to be the best path to democracy..."

Eh???Constitutional Monarchy?It leads to democracy in rich countries with intellectual citizens,rich middle-class(the backbone of any nation),decent press-freedom,and strong infrastructure.We had none,and the Sultan committed several crimes in WW1,such as acting against the freedom movement and sending agents to incite riots(and thats right,amongst minorities and fanatical muslims!!!now give me a bottle of Guiness as reward),openly speaking to an English Sergeant on the same level while denying audience to envoys from Anatolian Independence Movement.That in itself is a massive insult to integrity of whats left of the Sultanate,and an open "eff you" to Atatürk's movement.

"No, his dictatorial measures were aimed at increasing Turkey's (and therefore his own) power by any means necessary, even if it meant crushing ethnic minorities, forcing his country to change its very culture, and stamping out any hope of democracy."

That's a deeply controversial issue,and might be needed to discuss in a whole new place.First possibility:

  • Atatürk had a superb vision of the future,and saw how Europeans managed to incite unrest amongst minorities (and got away with it,while seeing all of themselves as Europeans),and tried to amputate a future worry from the very beginning.

Second:

  • Atatürk lost his self control,and tried to erase everything accorded to the past,so that we might not be judged again.Mind you,Ottoman state was the first nation to be accused of "Crimes against humanity."(oh the hypocrisy!YES!The French didn't butcher Algerians,the Brits didn't want to gas the Kurds and Arabs,but we?Oohhh we are E-V-I-L!We butchered Pontus Greeks,Armenians,Kurds,Asuri Keldanis...[beeeeeeeep]you,Europe.)

Third:

  • Atatürk was evil to the core,and wanted Anatolia to be a culturally gelded,short sighted minority-less continent ripe for European control.(in short,Bullshit.)


End:Atatürk donated almost his whole property into a bank he founded,in order to allow us Turks who never got credit from Europe (since we are E-V-I-L,[beep] you again Europe) during this time to enjoy the fruits of banking,and a small bit he spent for his surviving family members.

His yacht Savarona is sold one year ago as far as I reckon.Muslim Fundies hated the ship.

BUT:A man challenges 400 years of defeat in a row,jams the wheel of time and makes the "Eastern Peoples"(badly loose term I know)enjoy victory in the face of "White Man",makes the place with most ethnic and political clashes and geostrategic importance a secure haven for next generations,assures European defeat,is a widely aknowledged leader.

Labeling,even thinking this man EVIL just makes a stinging pain in my conscience.

CAN out.(notice it's not the English can.It's read like John.A Turkish name meaning "life" in Ottoman)

--CAN T 09:21, 16 May 2006 (UTC)Reply


Think on this: One must take into consideration the difficult situation that Ataturk was in after the war before making assumptions about his form of rule. While he did run a dictatorship, one must consider what he had to work with before making statements that describe his actions as "clamping down on his own people with a strictness similar to the totalitarians that would rise ten years later." He was faced with a situation similer to that of the conflict in Iraq now. The Americans seek to insert a democratic, equal government, but various obsticles such as an un-even distribution of power between groups such as the Shiite and the Sunnis keep the government in a state of turmoil. Durring this power struggle to gain control of the country, general unrest tears up the land. Ataturk saw this situation in turkey, and used his popular support to prevent it from happening. He could not have immidiatly instigated a democratic government on the turkish people, firstly because the people were not ready to handle it, and second, because while the power struggle to gain a majority in a new democracy was going on, opposition groups (such as the group lead by Enver Pasa) would see that moment of unrest, and act, forcing the country into an internal power struggle that would have left turkey weak to outside forces, and , it those opposition groups did manage to gain control, there was the possibly that they would put in a harsher dictatorship than the one that Ataturk ran. I in no way deny the fact that he was a ruthless dictaor (but only to a point to make sure that turkey survived), but instead I want to point out to those hampered in the skill of observation that Ataturk might not have had a choice to turn the government into a dictatorship. -Versipellis Rex

This is all facinating but as per Wikipedia:Original research it cant be in the article. Also please use another form of comunication if the debate isn't about material in the article. Article talk pages are not ment for social gatherings... --Cat out 19:24, 22 May 2006 (UTC)Reply

I've not edited on wikipedia before, so I'm sorry if I'm doing it incorrectly. In the article, introduction, it states: "...Mustafa Kemal led the Turkish national movement in what would become the Turkish War of Independence. Responsible for the genocide of 1.5 million Armenians in 1915. His successful military campaigns..." Not only is the genocide sentence awkardly inserted, but it is untrue. Regardless of your opinions of the Armenian Genocide, Kemal Ataturk could not have participated in it in 1915 since he was stationed at Gallipoli.

sorry i didnt have time to read the whole discussion but calling Ataturk a dictator is very stupid and ignorant since he spent his whole life on trying to bring multi party democracy while he had a chance to be a Sultan. If you are saying this about the minority or Islam issue, then you should know that all the developed nations in that era were(and still is like France) nation states not identifying any ethnic groups and about the islam thing, he just wanted Turkey to NOT be like afghanistan or Iran so he had to seperate the religion and government. Metb82 01:36, 26 May 2006 (UTC)Reply

yes he didnt want a state like afganistan thats why he deported from their home land all christian people from asia minor and killed them.if you go to turkey you see his picture like the lenin ,stalin ,hilter and musolini on the walls and you think that you have enterd a dictatorship.hitler when started his genocide against jews had in mind the genocides he had commited against all minirities in the area of asia minor and was very sure that no one will remember his genocide because ataturk's genocide had left no signs,so his also won't.

This is probably one of the silliest remarks I have ever read, first of all the massacres (certainly not genocide) took place way before Ataturk came to power, he was in no way involved in the relocation of minorities only in maintaining the territorial integrity of what became modern Turkey. If it wasnt for him, there would be no Turkey but carved out provinces so he will forever be remembered in the hearts and minds of Turks because his deeds were simply awe inspiring. And please stop comparing him to evil thugs such as Hitler whose sole purpose was to exterminate the Jews. 83.77.131.179 18:17, 2 June 2006 (UTC)Reply

Suggested move

Latest comment: 19 years ago53 comments22 people in discussion

Please REDIRECT all articles under the topics:

  • Atatürk
  • Mustafa Kemal
  • Kemal Atatürk

to HERE:

  • Mustafa Kemal Atatürk

OK, let me explain, he has been referred to as Mustafa, Mustafa Kemal, Mustafa Kemal Pasha, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and Gazi Mustafa Kemal Atatürk throughout his life and there after but he had never been referred to as "Kemal Atatürk" ever. Mustafa Kemal Atatürk is his full name, thus he should be referred to as. I'm trying to corret this mistake, please stop resisting, otherwise I'll be doubting your good intentions. Kertenkelebek 16:11, 16 June 2006 (EET)

Oppose move. In non-Turkish literature He is usually referred to as "Mustafa Kemal", "Atatürk" or "Kemal Atatürk". People withouth an in-depth knowledge of Turkish history can get confused and get the impression that "Mustafa Kemal" and "Atatürk" were two different people. I thus believe "Kemal Atatürk", combining the two, is the appropriate term for this article. Please do not move the article until consensus is reached. Unilateral moves easily leaves a horrible mess with dead links, blank pages and ublicate pages. Bertilvidet 13:25, 16 June 2006 (UTC)Reply

What a logic. Are there people withouth an in-depth knowledge of Whereeveryoucomefrom that can get confused and get the impression that Bert, Ilvi and Det were three different people, and thus your username needs to be moved to Ilvidet, combining the two?--Matthead 16:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
Sorry if I didn't express myself clearly. My point was that the title should include parts of both his original name and his later attributed name. Exactly like we have an article called Joseph Stalin and both Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili and Stalin redirects to this article. Thus, with this logic both Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and Kemal Atatürk would be appropriate; my support for the latter is because of its prevalence in English language litterature and more succint character. Bertilvidet 10:33, 17 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
I withdraw my vote, which partially was based on irrational irritation because the page continuously was moved unilaterally by a single user witheout trying to reach a consensus. Both Kemal Atatürk and Mustafa Kemal Atatürk are perfectly appropriate. My initial oppose vote basically argued the case for any of the two possibilities, so I am surprised to see several users opposing the move per me. Bertilvidet 12:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)Reply

Objection to oppose move Wikipedia is a place to learn thing and get yourself improved, if non-Turkish people are going to be confused then a small addition can be embedded inside the article to prevent such a confusion. However it's my personal opinion that it won't take a genius to understand that it's only one person since they're all going to be directed to the same page. Furthermore if one doesn't understand it's only one person he should understand it eventually after reading the article. If one doesn't make the distinction after all the articles are linked to a single page and even after reading just the first paragraph of the article he or she is clearly an idiot. In short it's not important how people understand, the important thing is the real information and people learning it. It's not that hard to do, is it? RESPECT HIS REAL NAME, he is called as Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, no matter who is reading the article. He is even called so in the article. Apart from that, I left no blank pages since all relevant articles are directed to a single one. There's no single link broken or any page left blank. All are directed to the same article. Clear? Kertenkelebek 16:34, 16 June 2006 (EET)

The fact that his name in Turkish parlance is what it is is not relevant here; this is the English wikipedia, and according to conventions the page name should reflect common usage. In English, the man is referred to as "Kemal Ataturk". siafu 14:45, 16 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
You've also already violated 3RR, so I suggest you leave the page where it is until you can convince the rest of us that it should be moved. siafu 14:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
His name in Turkish parlance is relevant here and valid EVERYWHERE, because its correct form is in Turkish. Besides it is not a matter of Turkish or English, like every other man on earth, he has a single name and more than every single being on earth he deserves to be referred to as his CORRECT and FULL name (in Turkish because he is Turkish!). If you people don't know how to refer to him, this is your chance; LEARN IT and let athers learn the correct form of it, not how you understand.Kertenkelebek 18:01, 16 June 2006 (EET)
I refer you to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). siafu 15:29, 16 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
I've put up a notice on this 3RR violation (6 reverts now...) at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR. siafu 15:44, 16 June 2006 (UTC)Reply

Why don't you help me finding and editing the blank pages and dead links you claim to have occurred. I'm willing to correct these mistakes and work hard for it, just point me the errors instead of making destructive criticism and insisting on what's WRONG. Kertenkelebek 18:51, 16 June 2006 (EET)

Quite frankly, since I don't think the page should be moved in the manner in which you're moving it, and you haven't expressed any indication that understand wikipedia policy, I have no interest in "helping" you destructive behavior. siafu 15:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
  • Support move to Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, but only once and not 10 times a day. Starting from Mustafa Kemal, he was styled Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, and this is his proper name since, as used by other Wikis, namely tr:Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. Nobody took his first name Mustafa away, and Wikipedia should neither. --Matthead 16:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
Another proponent of weird logic. If you oppose Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, then you also have to request a shortening to Zedong and Enver, or to John Kennedy and Franklin Roosevelt. Besides, the Turkish alphabet is derived from the latin one, see Alphabets derived from the Latin, before that gets also messed up by far-fetched non-analogies. --Matthead 18:13, 16 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
Thank you for the lesson in both logic and the Turkish alphabet, Matthead; I greatly appreciate it. I hereby withdraw my vote of "oppose" and enter no vote in its place. Anyhow, the issue has been discussed once, twice, and now thrice: always the same logic (or lack thereof), always the same results, always the same manasızlık. Cheers. —Saposcat 22:58, 16 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose "Mustafa Kemal Ataturk" is not the way he is commonly known in the English speaking world. Yes, it's the same alphabet, but just because it's his complete name doesn't mean it's the common name. Bill Clinton's name is actually William Jefferson Clinton (a redirect), but the article title uses the common version (again, it's all there to be read in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)). It also says "Mustafa Kemal Ataturk" right in the first line of the article, so anyone reading it will know immediately what his complete name is. (BTW, that should really be 毛泽东, since he's the one who introduced 简体字). siafu 19:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
(You are, of course, absolutely right about the simplified Chinese characters; I've just always been partial to the traditional characters myself. My bad. —Saposcat 23:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC))Reply
  • Support. Mustafa Kemal Atatürk is the name. Cretanforever
  • Comment: I refuse to vote here as at least half of the people are politicaly motivated voters. I also have no tolerance to the rant such as the ones above. As far as google is concerned Ataturk has no "common" name but two common names: Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and Kemal Atatürk and guideline is pretty clear with such cases. If guideline was followed we wouldn't be discussing. --Cat out 21:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
    • How have you done a google test here? The three "options" are subsets of each other, so any result for "Mustafa Kemal Ataturk" is also going to be a hit for the other two. siafu 02:43, 17 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
Coolcat, would you please elaborate this abit? This debate seems to be well conducted about how we best capture the name of the person in the title of his article. How is that political motivated? What kind of rants do you see here, that you have no tolerance to? Cheers Bertilvidet 10:27, 17 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose: I think the article should be named Atatürk, that's Mustafa Kemal's most common name, both within Turkey and abroad (see e.g. the two major English-language biographies, by Lord Kinross and Andrew Mango). ----Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 21:27, 16 June 2006 (UTC)Reply

Support move. I just checked several books - recently published, and written in English - and they all have "Mustafa Kemal Ataturk". The fact that the name is abbreviated in conversation or informal use is irrelevant. -- Danny Yee 02:12, 17 June 2006 (UTC)Reply

I don't get it why people don't get it. Did those who vote "oppose" actually read and understand the article? Hardly. His normal name, "Mustafa Kemal" (that is first name, last name, not two first names) was extended with the title "Atatürk" to the final official name of "Mustafa Kemal Atatürk" that went into history books. Only these three versions are valid to cover aspects of his life, and only the full version is appropriate to be used for the article. "Kemal Atatürk" is a stub, just like calling the current US-President "W. Bush". --Matthead 21:56, 17 June 2006 (UTC)Reply

LOL they dont even have to read the article matt, because these people love us(Turks) so much! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_June_13#Template:Turkic look here for the same group opposing in an other vote about Turks. They are our friendly! geographical neighbors and some sincere supports :) Metb82 00:05, 18 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
If it's so wrong, why does Britannica use "Kemal Ataturk"? —Khoikhoi 22:02, 17 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
Brittanica got it wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. -- Danny Yee 23:41, 17 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
And Columbia? —Khoikhoi 00:06, 18 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
And is there any reason that Wikipedia can't be more accurate than both? Is there any reason to repeat a MISTAKE?Kertenkelebek 20:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
Also check Britannica again please!Kertenkelebek 20:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
Incidentally, Matthead, the "Kemal" in "Mustafa Kemal" is not, as you claim, a "last name", but—as the article that you indirectly accuse people of not having read explicitly states—an "additional name"; i.e. not quite a first name, perhaps, but certainly not a last name. —Saposcat 08:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
Please don't pretend to have ideas before you have enough knowledge about the subject topic! If you have no information about the topic AT ALL (this part goes to Matthead) at least read the subject article once. Even a 7-year-old reading the article can see and understand that "Kemal" in "Mustafa Kemal" is NOT a surname, but a part of his forename (given by his math teacher), so (this goes to all who oppose) that's why you can't split it from the half. Kertenkelebek 20:38, 18 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
  • Weak support. I can't find that "Kemal Atatürk" alone is any more common in careful English usage than either simply "Atatürk" or the full "Mustafa Kemal Atatürk", and I can also understand why it would grate in Turkish ears. "Mustafa Kemal Atatürk" hurts no-one, so why not use it? We also - rightly - have Ruhollah Khomeini, not the far more common Ayatollah Khomeini, for instance. Of course, all other forms should exist as redirects, so it's really just a symbolic matter. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
  • Support Mustafa Kemal Ataturk is the correct and full name. --Zey 13:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
  • Weak support per Fut.Perf. I'll change my vote and admit that my initial vote was likely just a knee-jerk reaction. —(a humbled) Saposcat 20:55, 18 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
  • Support I guess the discussion ended here with a majority of SUPPORTERS vs. some opposers (who actually have no solid justifications but only excuses and a strange resistance to FULL and CORRECT information). Nobody requests deletion of the name "Kemal Atatürk" from the system, but it should be redirected to the most common and accurate form of his referral: "Mustafa Kemal Atatürk". I hereby call administrators to move this article under the topic of "Mustafa Kemal Atatürk" as suggested (and the opposers to get along with it) in respect to the consensus achieved in favor of the supporters. I by the way would be very glad to help/do it myself. Kertenkelebek 20:53, 18 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
  • NOTE And while talking about politically motivated voters, strangely most (maybe all, because not all can be seen clearly) of the opposing voters are strangely GREEK(and they don't even bother to state the basis of their opposal; what a coincidence isn't it? (see: Hectorian, NikoSilver, TigranTheGreat) Kertenkelebek 21:09, 18 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
Hey, lizard-butterfly, there's no call for that sort of statement, whether it be "right" or "wrong". Remember Wikipedia:Assume good faith. —Saposcat 21:17, 18 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
P.S. As if such things matter, isn't it more likely that User:TigranTheGreat is Armenian, rather than "GREEK"? —Saposcat 21:21, 18 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
It's just one sentence, read it carefully: "Assume that others intend to follow the policies and guidelines of WP participation, UNLESS THERE IS CLEAR AND PRESENT EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY.". Rechecking my previous NOTE, you'll see it presents CLEAR AND PRESENT EVIDENCE on the existence of politically motivated voters: Greek users opposing without even bothering to supporting their basis.
Kertenkelebek 21:29, 18 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
Your claim, "Greek users opposing without even bothering to supporting their basis", is all well and good, but please consider that said supporters did support their votes by means of the claim "per Bertilvidet"; i.e., they opposed for the same reasons stated by User:Bertilvidet.
P.S. Your statement, "[a]s if Greek or Armenian would differ from one another when it comes to being anti-Turkish" (now deleted), was not particularly fair, I think. But, to each his own. —Saposcat 21:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
My statement "As if Greek or Armenian would differ from one another when it comes to being anti-Turkish" did NOT mean that ALL Greeks and ALL Armenians are anti-Turkish, I tried to mean that both Greeks and Armenians COULD be equally anti-Turkish if they wish to be, it is a matter of preference of the person. I'm not going to make a debate on this, sorry for any inconvenience and any misunderstandings but I'm behind my word. Re-statement: "A Greek or an Armenian could be equally motivated to be anti-Turkish if they wish to be." Kertenkelebek 22:00, 18 June 2006 (UTC)Reply

Sayın Kertenkelebek, isim değişikliğini gerçekleştirmek için muhtaç olduğunuz kudret damarlarınızdaki asil kanda mevcuttur. Cretanforever

Move war

Latest comment: 19 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Please stop the move war; this discussion should decide, not unilateral moves. Septentrionalis 23:52, 18 June 2006 (UTC)Reply

Move War???

Latest comment: 19 years ago15 comments4 people in discussion

What war? My move is not unilateral anymore, if you don't respect FULL and CORRECT information, RESPECT the decision and consensus of Wikipedians, and don't turn this into a war. Kertenkelebek 08:36, 19 June 2006 (UTC)Reply

There is no consensus until this straw-poll is over (someone should specify a reasonable timeframe). The tally now is 7/10 (ha ha, rings any bell?) A proposal has to have at least 60% (while now it has 58.8%) to show clear consensus. Anyway, since I'm supposed to be one of those anti-Turk guys (according to Kertenkelebek) here, who don't justify their votes (like as if I should flood the page repeating what Bertilvidet said), here you go:
  • "Kemal Ataturk" -Mustafa -Kemal -wikipedia -.tr: 806 hits
  • "Mustafa Kemal Ataturk" -"Kemal Ataturk" -Kemal -wikipedia -.tr: only 2 hits!
Evidently, plain "Kemal" is the most common English appellation. However, if we exclude it from both "Kemal Ataturk" and "Mustafa Kemal Ataturk", we end up with the result that "Kemal Ataturk" is some 400 times more common. I really don't understand why Wikipedia should choose to call someone with a name that only (some) Turks use. I also don't understand why we are making such a big deal about it, and why this can be considered an anti-Turk gesture! Please enlighten me. :NikoSilver: 09:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
Of course it is normal that the shortest form of the name to be the most common one, the thing is that even people just typing "Kemal" should be reaching this article, no argument on that. Once again, I'm not arguing that all other names should be removed or deleted, I'm proposing that all relevant articles to be directed to the FULL and CORRECT name of this great person which is NOT a very difficult thing to do. I'm proposing that the article should bear the title with his FULL name and MOST COMMON name should be redirected to that so that people can LEARN THE CORRECT INFORMATION. IT IS NOT A NAME ONLY ALL TURKS CALL HIM; IT HIS HIS NAME THAT EVERYBODY DOES CALL HIM. It is his FULL name given in the article itself, is it so hard to understand?

And by the way Nikko, if you don't consider 58.8% majority as a consensus and yet wait for a 1.2% then I can't assume good faith of yours anymore.

Why do you have to be so aggressive? And who decides when the straw-poll ends? Also, please, don't SHOUT. If you admittedly think that "Kemal Ataturk" is more common, then this is how it should be called. Read Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). Now, you still haven't answered my question: "I also don't understand why we are making such a big deal about it, and why this can be considered an anti-Turk gesture! Please enlighten me." :NikoSilver: 11:37, 19 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
Uh, Niko, I'm afraid I don't quite follow your Google arithmetics. Of course, every page that contains "M.K.A." also contains "K.A." etc., so a search for '"M.K.A." -"K.A."' should rightfully return zero anyway. Shouldn't it? I calculate as follows:
  • (A) "Mustafa Kemal Ataturk": 2,110,000 Gh
  • (B) "Kemal Ataturk": 2,620,000 Gh
  • Since every member of (A) evidently is also a member of (B), the number of pages that contain only "K.A." should be 2,620,000 - 2,110,000 = 510,000. Thus, "M.K.A." may be about four times more frequent than "K.A." alone. The results are similar if I exclude "-site:.tr". And mark that the results for "K.A." alone still include tokens of abbreviated "M. Kemal Atatürk", or tokens where authors may have felt "K.A." was a complex last name, so referring to just "K.A." would be like referring to simply "Bush" or "Clinton" - okay in running text, but still not the form you'd choose in an encyclopedia entry. - I must admit, though, that the figures for "M.K.A." drop considerably if I restrict to "site:.edu" or "site:.uk". Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
Well, Google lets you request hits for MKA -KA. The result shows the exact arithmetic you did. I also removed -K. So I did BOTH searches like this:
+Option -Other options
...and google returns only those articles that include the full term (MKA), and atthe same time do not include KA alone. In other words, all articles that only call him MKA. I still can't understand why I must tolerate "Anti-Turk" characterizations for something as silly as that. Maybe Kertenkelebek can tell us why he wants "Mustafa" so desperately in the name, while for some nationalistic(?) reason Greeks shouldn't want it? :NikoSilver: 11:45, 19 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
I don't know what exactly you're doing there, Niko, but I have the strong impression that the '-"multi-word phrase"' syntax in Google really doesn't return 'anything' reliable. Especially if in a '+"phrase1" -"phrase2"' search phrase1 or phrase2 are contained within each other. When I do +KA -MKA, then among the first few pages that come up are in fact several that do contain MKA. And if I do +MKA -KA, although by rights the result should be zero, I get only slightly fewer results than for +MKA alone. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)Reply

Ha ha, I just read the hidden code in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)#Examples: 


==Examples==
Examples of common names that Wikipedia uses instead of a more elaborate, more formal
or more scientifically precise version include:
*[[Bill Clinton]] (not [[William Jefferson Clinton]])
*[[George W. Bush]] (not [[George Walker Bush]])
*[[Tony Blair]] (not [[Anthony Charles Lynton Blair]])
*[[Julius Caesar]] (not [[Imperator Gaius Iulius Caesar Divus]])
*[[Pelé]] (not [[Edson Arantes do Nascimento]])
*[[Occam's Razor]] (not [[Ockham's Razor]])
<!-- A contested example. I'd like to see it go unless we make
a point of including other contested examples. -->
*[[Venus de Milo]] (not [[Aphrodite of Melos]])
*[[Dog]] (not [[Canis lupus familiaris]]) 
*[[Guinea pig]] (not [[Cavia]])
*[[Sea cucumber]] (not [[Holothurian]])
<!-- This could go as far as I'm concerned though if we have three modern
politicians we might as well have three animals too. -->
<!--*[[Burping]] (not [[eructation]])> 
//I see no reason to remove this one - I do!-->

:NikoSilver: 11:55, 19 June 2006 (UTC)Reply

Fut.Perf. and Google: Whatever. Google tests aside, do we really argue here logically if "Mustafa Kemal Ataturk" is more common to uninformed readers than "Kemal Ataturk" alone? :NikoSilver: 12:07, 19 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
I would object to making specifically uninformed readers the norm here. Uninformed readers can use the redirects and be happy. Informed readers may well prefer MKA over KA. And the relative advantage in commonness of "Julius Caesar" over "Gaius Iulius Caesar" (among well-informed writers) is far greater than any supposed advantage of "KA" over "MKA" - if there is any such advantage at all, which I doubt. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:18, 19 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
But you yourself said "I must admit, though, that the figures for "M.K.A." drop considerably if I restrict to "site:.edu" or "site:.uk"." Ergo? :NikoSilver: 12:27, 19 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
Anyway, I now count 14:7 votes, which makes it a clean 2/3 majority - more than enough for a minor issue like this. I'd say, unless someone strongly feels that the full MKA form is not only unncessesary but actually harmful, we should move towards closure of this poll rather soon. Shall we give it another few hours until midnight UTC? Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:56, 19 June 2006 (UTC)Reply

Ok, although I had a-week-since-started in mind (16+7=June 23rd). Can you please explain why I would object to adding "Mustafa" if I was anti-Turk? What exactly would be Greece's benefit from that? I still sincerely believe that "Kemal Ataturk" is much more common. You can name it "Mustafa Kemal Ataturk of Ali Rıza and Zübeyde Hanım" if you so wish. The more difficult it is for readers to locate the article name, the greater the benefit (a nationalist Greek would think)! :NikoSilver: 13:10, 19 June 2006 (UTC)Reply

First of all I apologize from all who might felt offended with my UPPERCASE quotes, it was never my intention to shout or insult anyone, I wrote the key aspects of my comments in uppercase to attract more attention, just because I can't underline them here. What I call shouting is writing all the comment in uppercase which I have never done; nevertheless I'll pay more attention to that from now on, not to unintentionally offend anyone. Once again let me explain more clearly: He has been referred to as different names throughout history (in chronological order):

  • Mustafa (infancy)
  • Mustafa Kemal or Kemal (after high school)
  • Kemal Paşa or Mustafa Kemal Paşa (after having general's rank at Gelibolu)
  • Gazi or Gazi Paşa or Gazi Mustafa Kemal or Gazi Mustafa Kemal Paşa (after Turkish War of Independence)
  • Atatürk or Mustafa Kemal Atatürk or Gazi Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (after surname legislation in Turkey.)

Preferably among these referrals one can pick the most common one ("Atatürk") or the most accurate one ("Mustafa Kemal Atatürk") as the title of the article or unpreferably (yet still correctly) any of the mentioned names above. But any other combination of his names would be a wrong referral more than being inaccurate. So, please, stop insisting on a mistake! PS:

  • Question:I also don't understand why we are making such a big deal about it, and why this can be considered an anti-Turk gesture?
  • Answer:Because it is not a controversial topic to rename an article, this is a free encylopedia and given the justifications and within some basic rules anyone can edit anything as he/she feels neccessary. But some people are insisting on making a big deal about it and trying to make the situation "controversial" by opposing just to oppose (without even bothering to write their own reasons for opposal). They don't care about what others say, they don't listen they just oppose. There's no good faith in continuously stopping someone from making an edit; who already accepted to do all the work neccessary not to leave anything missing or messy behind. Those are the ones making a big deal of it, those are the ones undoing my edits without showing the patience for me to finish my work and strangely almost all of those are Greeks. Enough? Kertenkelebek 13:38, 19 June 2006 (UTC)Reply
    • Yes. Enough. I understand how you may feel, but please keep in mind that not all people are crazy here. Probably your tone was not appreciated to the extent that users would object to just anything you proposed (see Bert's comment after removing vote). This is wrong, maybe more wrong than your tone, so I apologise on behalf of them (if there are any). However, next time you face what you sense as irrational opposition, better check if it was you that attracted it in the first place. My consideration was in terms of being more common as an English appellation. There is no cabal against you, or Turkey, or... Kemal, and I'll be happy to protect the version that will gain majority in votes. And if anybody says that the article is controversial because of a "Mustafa" in the name, I'll be the first to LMTO! So, peace? :NikoSilver: 14:02, 19 June 2006 (UTC)Reply

Comment Unlike William Jefferson Clinton, or the others quoted above, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk is not his formal name, but his commonly used name. Kemal Ataturk has just become a shorthand. A quick look on Encarta shows that MKA is a commonly used name. --A.Garnet 14:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)Reply

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