Wikimedia Meta-Wiki

Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Aeres

< Requests for new languages
This is an archived version of this page, as edited by Ooswesthoesbes (talk | contribs) at 08:10, 16 July 2007 (→Let's try and vote for a new ISO?). It may differ significantly from the current version.

Aeres Wikipedia

submitted verification final decision
Discuss the creation of this language project on this page. Votes will be ignored when judging the proposal. Please provide arguments or reasons and be prepared to defend them (see the Language proposal policy).
Proposal summary
Please read the handbook for requesters for help using this template correctly.

The name used in linguistic studies is Ourish; i am looking in google book search for a old book that still uses this term before the language became reclassified as low-saxon

Aeres is a language which has the most speakers in Germany and the Netherlands. There are 600 speakers of this language. It's a germanical language. Most people think that this language is the same as West-Frisian(Frysk) but that isn't true. You can compare this language to Limburgish, but there are very much differences. The Aeres community has been waiting many years for an encyclopedia. A encyclopedia completely in Aeres doesn't exist yet, so I think many people would be interested in this project. This language is also easy to learn. The conjugation of the verbs is just like Afrikaans completely extincted. There are five declensions, nominative, genetive, accusative and dative and vocative(not much used anymore). --Limburger 09:11, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Arguments in Favour

  • The Aeres community has always been interested in preserving their language. I am working on a Dictionary in Aeres. I think this Wikipedia-Project would be great to prevent English inflewences, the language is really suffering from that! --Markvondeegel 07:24, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's an interesting language. I think it's inportant that this wikipedia should arrive. --Ooswesthoesbes 12:19, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry I'm late... I was busy, but I promised to help with this request. Æres is a stabil language. The last 50 years the number of speakers hasn't declined, it has grown a little bit. JeroenKon 11:50, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • A real discussion I see... I've got something: This language is different from other languages, that's why we deserve a wikipedia or wiktionary at least. & Limburger 14:42, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • In what way is it different and in what way is it related to other languages? Why would you "deserve" a wikipedia if you can't come up with any reliable source on this? Why should I believe it is not something you all made up? How can you tell it is not a hoax? Cicero 15:31, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • ef euver get anges... Höbse 't al vernaome? D'r zeen al 300 paasjes oppe wiktionair! Hae gruit wie 'ne trein! --Ooswesthoesbes 15:50, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • This is not about the Limburgish wiktionary, it is about Aeres. Please answer my question, don't come up with irrelevant stuff here to lead the attention away from questions you don't like. Cicero 18:27, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • Sorry, I didn't wanted to interrupt you: --Ooswesthoesbes 18:30, 3 July 2007 (UTC) Cicero: In what way is it different and in what way is it related to other languages? Why would you "deserve" a wikipedia if you can't come up with any reliable source on this? Why should I believe it is not something you all made up? How can you tell it is not a hoax? Cicero 15:31, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Ourish (not aerish) was the name of a small group of languages; distinct from low-Saxon and related to Frisian, that was spoken in several villages in the dutch provinces of Gelderland and Overijsel and the German state of Nordrhein-Westfalen. The language is now mostly extinct with only a few hundred people speaking it, and those people are mostly elders. Neither the Dutch nor the German government recognize ourish a a language separated form low-Saxon. I suggest looking up old national geographics and linguistic textbooks to find some information about the dialect. If hope the person who is making the ourish wikia has the decency to contact me; so i can help him and his grandpa make a good looking website. minormessageoverload@hotmail.com micha1712
    • May I ask for the source of your information? --Johannes Rohr 19:55, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • You can; i read about the Ourish language in 3 different sourches. When i was 15 years i read a old national geographic magazine from '24; then i forgot about the language until i did a course on linguistics at the peoples university of Rotterdam. I studied Dutch, Low-Saxon, Frisian and German and i got to know the different dialects that where being used on both sites of the Dutch-German border; at the time i wrote a article about Frisian with 20 pages about west and east Frisian and two small pages about Frisian languages outside the northern provinces of the Netherlands, Germany and Scotland. My knowledge about Ourish comes from writing this article where i mentioned how early in the 19th century Ourish was considered distinct from Low-Saxon but because of political reason the dialects where first called a derivative of limburgian then a part of the Dutch Low-Saxon language. My third source being a old Dutch book on language studies from the 50's that i implemented in my article. The name of the books was Het Grootnederlands studieboek voor Hollandse dialecten en hun Duitse tegenhangers (The high-Dutch study book on Dutch dialects and there German counterparts) Where Dhr. P.H. Hermann wrote how he found the reclassification of a language based on politic grounds to be morally objectionable. --micha1712
  • "Our" or "Ôr" is East-Æres for ancient, prehistorical and pronouncing. Maybe has pronouncing something to do with "Ourish"? Vælke 16:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Aeres is not an artificial language; it is a living language that is spoken as a native language by a sizeable population (At least Six Hundred) in Germany and the Netherlands - most of whom have access to the internet. There are currently five native speakers who are willing to active participate in this project. The comparatively low number of native speakers should not disqualify them from creating a new wiki (for example, the Norfuk language is spoken by 500 native speakers - however they still have their own Wikipedia). --Jose77 04:26, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Arguments Against

Lynotic is? --Limburger 17:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
See your own MSN community and the deleted versions and discussion on en:. Cicero 00:02, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
How can you see it if it's deleted? --Ooswesthoesbes 12:58, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There are 20 people who talk this language around "Emden" oost-Friesland. --Markvondeegel 07:35, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Even more around the dutch borders, there is east aeres, more common then duûts aeres Vælke 15:53, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Even if the request is honest, 600 speakers (all of whom are able, presumably, to operate perfectly well in at least one other language) is nowhere near enough to sustain a wikipedia. With the exception of wikipedias full of bot-created articles and Ido (most of whose articles are on towns in the U.S. and have virtually the same text throughout) all the the wikipedias with more than about 10 articles have at least 100 000 speakers. LeighvsOptimvsMaximvs (talk) 18:17, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • The most wikipedias who have this problem are wikipedias for people out of less rich countries. Many people there have no electricity. Æres is a living language with 600 speakers all willing to edit, they all have a computer as far as I know. And most also have a connection with Internet. --Markvondeegel 09:50, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Our MSN-community involves 3% of all the Æres speakers and runs like a train. Many people there are interested in forming, creating and editing an online encyclopedia, such as Wikipedia. --Limburger 17:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In a testpage you will see this is a populair language. --Markvondeegel 07:35, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Try googling for ourish not aerish and yes those username are probably from the same guy but i have nothing to do with them; i just like languages. --Micha1712
  • The language committee is unlikely to allow for the start of a Wikipedia for this language as it does not have an ISO 639 code.

GerardM 19:18, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

    • Take a look at the incubator and the list of Wikipedias. There's enough activity. There are lots of Wikipedias with an ISo 639-code without activity. My opinion is that it's better to have 1 wikipedia with activity in a language without an ISO-639 code than 20 Wikipedias without activity but with a language with an ISo-639 code. --Ooswesthoesbes 15:47, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Please see these two links; one is a wiki article about Pitkern, the other is a Pitkern wiki. Pitkern only has 600 speakers and 2000 speakers of a local related dialect called Norfuk. With a Ourish speaking population of about 400 - 900 people who are all living in an industrialised nation with a very widespread cable network we can expect about 50 regulare users working on the wiki; capable of producing much more then the 58 articles produced at the Pitkern wiki. I support the ISO NL-AE. --Micha1712

General Discussion

I don't think it's a real problem if this Wikipedia doesn't come to live. I think it's a problem if people think this is a hoax, it really isn't. --Markvondeegel 11:33, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
...which is not by malicious intent, but because the proposal fails to cite any reliable sources. Please do so and the discussion will immediately take a different turn. --Johannes Rohr 21:05, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sources are found as "Ourish" --Ooswesthoesbes 15:51, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Its very hard to say where I stand on this. There isn't a whole lot of evidence to support this, but I'd really like to believe this one is real. Could you please pull together some form of report, or reference, or anything more than an easy to set up MSN group to show evidence of Æres' existance? It would really help. Explodingdog 21:07, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sources are found as "Ourish" --Ooswesthoesbes 15:51, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • This "language" has got a wikia now: http://aeres.wikia.com, probably by the people from the MSN group. It contains a few articles about dialects of this "language", of which I really doubt they exist/have existed. According to these articles, dialects of Aeres were spoken in Sweden and Denmark. I still believe it is a fantasy language of a few teenagers. The language looks like a constructed mixture of Limburgish/Frisian/Ripuarian to me. Cicero 21:14, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm wondering, what do you name a kid? The most people of the MSN-group are infact born at the begin of the 80's and the end of the 70's. --Markvondeegel 10:24, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • It doesn't matter when these people were born. I'm sorry to have called you kids. What matters is if this language actually exists. I haven't seen any prove or reliable source that it does. So please react to these objections! Cicero 12:18, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think we forget something! Æres is a difficult language. You need to use the rules of the declensions. You've got Nominative, Genetive, Dative and Akkusative and a remain of the Vocative. If you need to follow the rules of these you've got a real problem! Also the prepositions change for example. --Markvondeegel 10:57, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Name discussion

About these sources. Āēres is infact a mediaeval term. The modern term is Æres. Some people preffer to use Aeres, others like to use Aires and some people write Ères. Please try out all these terms. JeroenKon 11:53, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Would you please add "Ourish" to your list? -Markvondeegel 14:44, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Impossible, it's still used, mediaeval nothing. Does the language really exist so long? I thought it broke off from Frysk around 1600. & Limburger 14:47, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
List of Swadesh

The list of swadesh on the wikia isn't in modern aeres, it isn't up-to-date. If anybody has got information about the modern and wants to change the list, please go ahead. JeroenKon 13:20, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Simple solution to keep everybody happy

Incubator?

What about an incubator? It will show that there are enough editors, it has a real grammar and vocabulary, it isn't a mix between some german and dutch dialects and that only west-Æres really is used nowadays. (Deutsch Æres = Deutsch, almost no differences, see here) ! -Markvondeegel 14:13, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone can open a test project at any time. Moreso, it is a mandatory precondition for any new language edition. However, this is not going to compensate for the total absence of reliable sources on this page. If you are serious, you should do every effort to provide them, as has been requested many times. Plus getting an ISO code. --Johannes Rohr 14:35, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
How will you get an ISO-code??? --Markvondeegel 14:37, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Simple! Lie, say that it's a constructed language. You all say it's real, without sources you won't get a real big project. But if you say it's a constructed language(like at your wikia info thing) it's more believable! --Ooswesthoesbes 13:29, 4 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Than you would still have to come up with sources to verify that this language is not only used by a few people running an MSN group. Furthermore, why would you have to lie if you are so sure this language actually exists? Or are you lying here as well? Cicero 14:35, 4 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why should I lie, I have always said I don't speak this language! --84.28.2.108 14:45, 4 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Right. But you do say you're the administrator of the AeresLanguage MSN group. Cicero 13:07, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Zee mien euverlegkpaasj --Ooswesthoesbes 17:28, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why don't you answer in a language that more people who follow this discussion can read? Cicero 18:49, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Because you've said it there too, and that's where I've answered it :) --84.28.2.108 12:59, 7 July 2007 (UTC) P.S. let neet op mien IP[reply]
Almost certainly not without providing reliable sources. (can't say more, since I never had the problem) --Johannes Rohr 14:51, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that, but how can you create an incubator wikipedia? Markvondeegel 15:13, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Quickstart: The first thing you need for that is a language code. Since there is none, you will have to invent one, thereby avoiding conflicts with existing ISO codes. I would suggest a composite code like "nl-aeres" (or "nl-ae" to keep it short). If you agree, go to incubator: and create your account. You can start editing at [Project code]/[language code], that it (in case you use the suggested code) incubator:Wp/nl-ae and start editing. All your pages have to be members of the category "Aeres Wikipedia" or of a subcategory. Further all pages you create need to be subpages of Wp/nl-ae. That is, an article "Fritjes" would have to be located at incubator:Wp/nl-ae/Fritjes.
Further you should create a page for your main category: incubator:Category:Aeres Wikipedia. Just copy the contents of an existing page, e.g. incubator:Category:Prussian Wikipedia and adjust the data.
Consequently, all links between your pages must also be prefixed Wp/nl-ae. Apart from that, it's just normal Wiki editing. But again: you should absolutely undertake efforts to provide reliable sources to the langcom. Else, your test project will serve no purpose. --Johannes Rohr 15:31, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think you should not use nl-aeres. Aeres is also spoken in Germany. I think some people would have problems with nl-aeres. Janvanhorn 13:03, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support for NL-AE --Micha1712
I propose x-aeres or ger-aeres of Germanical Æres. Æres is a germanical language. Markvondeegel 13:31, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If "Ourish" is a name for "Aeres" it may be possible to use our, ger-our, ou-aer or x-our Janvanhorn 13:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe we can use aeres as the project code? I don't think there's another language starting with aeres. Markvondeegel 14:03, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ic agree with aeres.wikipedia.org, I think it's more like a wikipedia for all people who speak aeres and not only for west, or east or duûts aeres. Because west is more generally spoken in the Netgherlands, East is more around the border and duûts is only spoken in Germany. Although on the wikia is no duûts speaker there. Vælke 15:46, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
At least you've got a temporary Wikipedia!!:) --Ooswesthoesbes 09:42, 4 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
An incubator is a great idea. & Limburger 14:44, 3 July 2007 (UTC) and needed to start a wikipedia[reply]

Let's try and vote for a new ISO?

Please leave support, idea's and comments below the ISO code of your choice. --Micha1712

  • NL-AE : Ourish as part of the Dutch language.
    • Support: I think this one is the most easy and clear in use since most people who speak Ourish consider themselves to be Dutch and write the name of there dialect as Aerish and not like most Dutch and English linguistics as Ourish; even though Ourish is still the official name of the Aerish language for the Dutch and the English speaking community here on wikimedia. . --Micha1712
      • Oppose This can give a war between the Dutch and German languages. Aeres is as already said above devided in three main dialects(untill now only East-Aeres, the 2nd language) has articles in the incubator. West-Aeres is mostly only in the Netherlands, East-Aeres is around the border and Duûts-Aeres(translated German-ourish) is only in Germany. Please conside your support. JeroenKon 06:31, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Most Ourish speaking people are from the Netherlands. There is a entire Dutch village that speaks the west-dialect. --Micha1712
    • support this is the best options. Most aeres-speaking life in the Nethrelands. Duût-Aeres is almost dyed out with less as 50 people. East-Aeres has just a little bit less people as West-Aeres but it's mostly used on the incubatorpage. Kremnae 03:33, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • NL-OU
  • DU-AE : Ourish as part of the German language.
  • DU-OU
  • FY-AE : Ourish as part of the Frisian language.
    • Support This is the best option. Related to Frisian, but the language doesn't sound really Frisian anymore, if it ever did(I don't no so much about how it sound a long time ago), what's wrong with AERES as ISO-code? I think that one is better then all these, If you see: no existing ISO code looks even a little bit like it and it's long 5 characters, but your sugegstions all have 5 characters too. Wasn't there also a wikipedia with BE-X-OLD? JeroenKon 06:31, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • FY-OU
  • Sorry, these are all no ISO codes. An ISO code is a code as understood by any of the different ISO-639 versions. GerardM 22:10, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I know i should not make a special adaption for wiki; i understand that you rather have a traditional 2 or 3 digit code. --Micha1712
Retrieved from "https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Aeres&oldid=629218"