Mantanmoreland
Lutheran doctrines of the orders of creation
FYI, [Is attacking the teachings of a fellow editor's church acceptable discourse?]
German Christians used this argument to justify devotion to race and fatherland as "orders of creation" to be obeyed until the final consummation (Woelfel 1970, 240).
Richard Steigmann-Gall: Yes, and I think that’s really the crux. The question is, how could good Christians – good Protestants, running a group like the Inner Mission, devoted to Protestantisation of social policy in Germany – how could such a group advocate sterilisation, and even end up being drawn into the Nazi euthanasia program? And I think it’s very important to keep in mind that these are not people who didn’t realise what they were doing. The theological underpinnings of this, to borrow your expression, also in a broader sense explains why those Protestants who went to Hitler, did go to Hitler. And it’s an expression which is used in Germany – I won’t give you the German word, Stephen, but it translates roughly into “the theology of the orders of creation”. And what you start getting in Protestant circles is the idea – certainly by the turn of the century, this idea is getting currency – that the Volk, or the race, is one of God’s orders of creation. Now, Lutheran theology had always maintained that God had created certain orders in society, like the family, and the law and the state. And what you see increasingly among Luther scholars is the idea being suggested that the Volk as well – and again, Volk is a word which doesn’t translate easily into English, it’s translated as “people” or “race” – but the Volk is a divine order of creation. And here again I have to draw a parallel, Stephen, at least in my context in the United States, with the idea among people like Strom Thurmond in the United States, that miscegenation was something that God was opposed to.
Steigman-Gall: Well, this is the main focus of my book, to explore what the Nazis had to say, and what their conceptions of Christianity were. One thing we have to keep in mind is that the Nazis, because they were a nationalist movement in a country with a long sectarian divide between Catholic and Protestant, the Nazis wanted to appear to be above the confessions, above the denominations. So they came out with an expression, 'Positive Christianity', which theological historians will know is an expression that was used in the 19th century. The Nazis' ‘Positive Christianity’ bears no relationship to that. When the Nazis said ‘Positive Christianity’, they never really defined it very clearly. In fact they kept it rather hazy. And what I discovered was that when the Nazis talked about what they liked about Christianity, time and again they made references to Protestantism. So I can’t tell you in a very explicit way that they said 'well, we like this about Luther, but we dislike that about dialectical theology.' They spoke in broader terms. They were certainly very positive about Luther. They went through the history of religious wars in Germany, they were always very effusive about Luther as the first German and the first Protestant who broke the domination of Rome over Germany, as they saw it. But he also introduced a more personal understanding of God, so the Nazis saw Luther as the person who broke down the necessity of a mediator between the individual and God. So they didn’t make explicit reference to which 19th century theologian they liked or disliked. The leaders they did esteem were recognizably Protestant. And one of those actually is, as frightening as it sounds, a theology which recognized the Volk or the race or the people, as one of the orders ordained by God. Now, this sounds heretical today, the idea that race' is one of God's creations, but one hundred years ago, even before the Nazis, you begin to see varieties of Protestant thought which suggested just that. It is called a Theology of the Orders of Creation. And it was quite current in Lutheran circles both before the Nazis and during the Nazis, too. So in these ways the Nazis made reference to how highly they esteemed Protestantism. Now, I should point out that these were nominally Protestant Nazis who made this connection. Nominally Catholic Nazis, on the other hand, were less inclined to say positive things about Martin Luther. Although there were cases within the Nazi party where even nominal Catholics could make such associations. And perhaps most startling of all is Adolph Hitler himself. Hitler was saying much the same things as the Protestant Nazis were saying: that Luther was a great national hero. Keep in mind that in Germany if you were a good Catholic you weren't going to end up saying such a thing. So I make it clear in the book that I don't consider Hitler a good Catholic - he never went to Mass, he never went to confession. But what he had to say about Christianity behind closed doors was that he too esteemed Protestantism as the 'natural' religion of the Germans. Both a national religion and the natural religion of the Germans.
--Doright 02:10, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks. Interesting quotations.--Mantanmoreland 03:10, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
- Since this topic is being discussed here I want to make a comment. This version of "Orders of Creation" was never Lutheran, and should not be characterized as such. It is in fact a Nazi distortion of this concept. The Nazis got their idea of the super race from Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche, not Martin Luther or any Lutheran. Notice in Stiegman-Gall's quotation that he speaks of "Protestantism": Lutherans make it a point to clarify their views from what is generically non-Roman Catholic in theology. Lutheran Orders of Creation concern God's creation of the structures of society and are completely based on the Bible. They never taught that God created a pure race or that such a pure race should rule the world. Lutherans like Helmut Thielecke joined Karl Barth together in 1933 to repudiate the Nazi version of religion. Please see the Barmen Declaration. To call the Nazi idea "Lutheran doctrine of orders of creation" is a misrepresentation. Thank you,--Drboisclair 15:41, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
- I have no prob with it being discussed here. No harm in that.--Mantanmoreland 17:40, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Pointing out a relevant discussion
You will see on my talk page a question to me from CTSWyken about your recent changes to Luther and the remarks you placed in the edit summary. My response is on his talk page. I thought you'd be interested.