Talk:The Lord of the Rings
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- archive 01 ? – August 2004
- archive 02 August 2004 – December 2005
- archive 03 December 2005 – September 2006
What happens when people enter the Undying Lands?
- It's definitely in Return of the King that states Sam must pass over the water because he was a ring bearer. I think Gandalf tells him directly.
The real earth
194.60.106.5 12:56, 5 October 2006 (UTC)Is Middle-Earth actually China, as the country in Chinese has 'Middle' as part of the name? And think of all the wars and invasions of the West from the East, from the Huns to the Mongols. 5 Oct 06
Beowulf?
No mention of beowulf? Beowulf was a huge influence to the Lord of the Rings. I think it should be added to the article. Neokyotodragon 09:23, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
- As far as I'm aware, there is no mention of influences in this article. This particular statement could be construed as Original Research unless you provide appropriate sources for it. In the mean time, I think we'll leave it out. Ck lostsword|queta! 16:48, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
- Yeah, I was just wondering that. In particular, the giving of rings is important in Beowulf. It would be great if a someone could find a ref in literature about LotR. However, some of the "Influences" section does seem to just state similarities between myths, without explicit refs (tho these could be in the overall ref sources, I can't check), eg the characteristics of berserkers. Would it be out of order to simply state that Beowulf, which we know Tolkien would have studied and taught, contains this theme? JackyR | Talk 14:05, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
yes beowulf was a very great influence should include Randalllin 18:44, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
- Does Lin Carter discuss in his book on Tolkien's influences? I think he does... Charles T. Betz 02:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- Aha! Appendices of Peter Jackson film (DVD Extended version) quote various people that Rohan is "Beowulf with horses". Will watch again to check exactly who is saying/being quoted in this, and add to article. Not as convenient a ref as a book, perhaps, but this is a published source... JackyR | Talk 16:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- We'd be better off citing Shippey or someone like that directly. The movies and commentary on them aren't reliable sources for the books. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
It should be mentioned in the Tolkien article that Tolkien studied and taught Beowulf and nothing more, unless there is a specific source that says it influenced it. However, I do recall reading about Beowulf influencing Tolkien's works a long time ago (read, more than 10 years ago, when I was a Tolkien fanatic), but I wouldn't be able to tell you where. Find it if you want to include it. --Wirbelwind 22:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Wot we've got (so far)
Right. Start at The Hobbit#Similarities to Beowulf and Talk:The_Hobbit#Beowulf. These compare the actual contents, which may or not be an act of WP:OR (different people take different stands), and debate the question – but importantly state that the annotated Hobbit includes Tolkien's own word on the matter. Surely someone on this page has a copy?
Then the "talking heads" documentaries on Tolkien in the PJ film appendices. Herewith the transcribed the sequence:
- Tom Shippey: "We should remember that Tolkien's job for most of his life was actually to be a professor of Anglo-Saxon, which is the same as Old English, so that was what he spent his days thinking about, you might say. So that it's only natural that this spills over into the writing, once he found a place to put it. But that gave Tolkien a great deal of material, especially in the surviving Anglo-Saxon poetry, of which Beowulf is the best-known example."
- Jude Fisher: "And so in creating Rohan, he goes back to the Anglo-Saxon tradition and creates for us a very recognisable ninth and tenth century aura in the hall of Meduseld, which is actually the same name as Beowulf's own hall."
- John Howe: "It's a typical element of Anglo-Saxon culture of that time and a grand hall is absolutely essential. It's Beowulf with horses added, basically."
[Ref for all this: The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers (Special Extended DVD Edition). , "J. R. R. Tolkien: Origins of Middle-earth" ("Appendices Part 3: The Journey Continues...") New Line Home Entertainment Inc (2003)]
I'd rather others made the final judgement on which of these are sufficiently authoritative to be quoted, but I'd say it's more a problem of how to phrase and reference this than with the authority of the first two. Presumably a convenient chunk from Shippey's written publications would trump this, if someone has it. But it's clear it should be pursued. Job for someone with far too much Tolkien material...? JackyR | Talk 22:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- And already I've found Jude Fisher is astray re Meduseld, since of course Beowulf's hall is Heorot (I knew dat!). However I also accidentally found the line: ""Wes þū Hrōðgār hāl!" in Beowulf. Like I say, it's all terribly familiar ("Westu Theoden hal") but not conclusive on it's own... Work to do... JackyR | Talk 23:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- This wasn't actually wrong. Heorot was King Hrothgar's hall. Meduseld just means "mead-hall", and of course as king of the Geats Beowulf had one. TCC (talk) (contribs) 00:41, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
FA?
The characters section needs a lead-in for the main article and so far it's got three citation needed tags, and I'm seeing a few sentences that look like they're uncited as well. Is the article really going down hill this fast from when it was promoted? The Filmaker 01:36, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I found five actually, but I'm hoping soon afterward someone with a copy of Letters will fill some in. But to be honest, the article is still very top level. Wiki-newbie 15:59, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
- I've fixed three. I have refs for the other three, but will have to do tomorrow. Sorry. Didn't realise this article was going to be on the Main Page today! Carcharoth 02:05, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- I was actually really surprised to see it too. I haven't had the time to be around to look at this either but I will do my best to do so. SorryGuy 03:58, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- This article averages a couple dozen edits per day. Significant changes since it was featured four months ago are thus not surprising. This diff shows changes from when the featured article star was added to the current version as of this posting... obviously they have been extensive. For the most part it is still a clean article, but with people adding / moving / rewriting that much stuff all the time it just isn't realistic to expect there to be no flaws on any given day. --CBD 10:54, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
FA with original research
Why does a featured article have a paragraph (on absolute power) that looks like original research and is spewed with {{fact}} tags. Can't this be nuked at least for today? Thatcher131 04:24, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- It was vandalism. —Cuiviénen 16:30, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Back Story
When I moved to revert a small piece of vandalism on this article, I saw a message concerning the length of the article. To address this problem, I think the Back Story section is the prime candidate for massive cuts. Whilst a bit of background to Sauron is necessary for a story synopsis of LOTR, what is not needed in this article is a full story synopsis of events outside the LOTR books themselves. That is, story synopses of the First and Second Ages should be kept in separate articles about Tolkien's legendarium. Darcyj 04:28, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- indeed, this is all covered elsewhere. this article should focus on the books and their publication/reception, not regurgitate the entire legendarium :) dab (ᛏ) 13:34, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- I quite agree. Though parts of the summary are quite nice. Maybe it should be moved to Tolkien's Legendarium? That does need to be written at some point. Carcharoth 16:02, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- As a newcomer I also agree. I made a few stylstic tweaks but the whole section seems a bit overdone.Charles T. Betz 02:10, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- I quite agree. Though parts of the summary are quite nice. Maybe it should be moved to Tolkien's Legendarium? That does need to be written at some point. Carcharoth 16:02, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
BACKSTORY
THE BACKSTORY IS KINDA STRANGE, SO IS THE EDIT ON THE BACKSTORY — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.151.53.90 (talk) 08:04, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Minor q. re. "Influences on the Fantasy Genre"
I'm a bit loath to cut them out without soliciting opinion first, but since the LotR/D&D relationship is established earlier in this section, surely we don't need to include all the video games based on D&D in the list? Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights are D&D role-playing games, so they're "influenced by LotR" by third-generation associations at this point. --MattShepherd 14:32, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Need more vandal fighters
We need more vandal fighters watching this article. I've been trying to keep up with it but my connection is slow, and often more vandalism happens when I'm fixing other vandalism. --Fang Aili talk 15:08, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Why isn't this page protected from anonymous edits? Grimhelm 15:10, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- See Wikipedia:Semi-protection policy. Usually the featured article of the day is not protected in order to encourage (positive) anon editors. --Fang Aili talk 15:12, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- The entire Synopsis has been removed. I can't sort this out right now. Please someone fix this. --Fang Aili talk 15:12, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh my gosh! Like half the page is messed up! There's random stuff everywhere huge parts deleted, and example images this is ugly! Man, I wish these stupid vandals would leave. Caleb09 23:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh good it's fixed now :) Caleb09 23:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Protected now
Wiki-newbie 15:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you :-) Grimhelm 15:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Um. The article hasn't been protected, and shouldn't be anyway. What Wiki-newbie did was add Template:Sprotected to the page. If you read the instrutions at that page, you'll see the following: "Adding this template to an article does not protect it. Protection can only be applied by administrators.". We will just have to work hard to clean up vandalism. Currently nearly 250 edits made to the article today. Still over 6 hours to go. I'll do my best to help when I have time. Carcharoth 15:36, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Hmm, you're right. Although, maybe the template might discourage vandals? Seriously though, its going to be time consuming for editors to monitor all the edits to this article without a semi-protect. Grimhelm 15:40, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- See User:Raul654/protection for a full explanation. Carcharoth 15:46, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Looks like it still needs some protecting!
- Yes. By us! Not by slapping protection on it. Carcharoth 16:42, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- hey, what wag replaced 'Tolkien' with 'Childers'? right down to linking at bottom to official website www.childers.co.uk. sheez
Unsourced Statements?
I noticed the first category at the bottom of this article is "Articles with unsourced statements". Considering this is a featured article, it may be wise to give references for any unsourced statements that have been overlooked. Grimhelm 15:23, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Some of the "citation needed" tags have been added today. Those will be dealt with once the article is off the front page and not featured (currently reverting vandalism takes up the time of most people watching the page). I'd favour a method of moving the citation tags to the talk page while the article is featured, and then dealing with them later. Carcharoth 15:38, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Okay, that explains it. Grimhelm 15:44, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Unsourced statements list
This is a list of unsourced statements tagged with "citation needed" tags. These have been temporarily removed while the article is featured on the main page (though the judgment of this editor is that the statements are essentially correct and not misleading, so do not need removing completely. References will be added in a day or two. Carcharoth 15:58, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- "Some also say that there is clear evidence that one of the main subtexts of the story — the passing of a mythical "Golden Age" — was influenced not only by Arthurian legend but also by Tolkien's contemporary anxieties about the growing encroachment of urbanisation and industrialisation into the "traditional" English lifestyle and countryside."
- "The enormous popularity of Tolkien's epic saga greatly expanded the demand for fantasy fiction. Largely thanks to The Lord of the Rings, the genre flowered throughout the 1960s. Many other books in a broadly similar vein were published (including the Earthsea books of Ursula K. Le Guin, the Thomas Covenant novels of Stephen R. Donaldson), and in the case of the Gormenghast books by Mervyn Peake, and The Worm Ouroboros by E. R. Eddison, rediscovered."
Historical influences cont'd (Paradise Lost)
I don't have a reference, but it seems clear that "Paradise Lost" was a fundamental source for much of Tolkien's material. Although their common debt to Christian theology and tradition may cloud the case for influence, there do seem to be specific correspondences in terms of content, style and theme. Milton's Satan is the model for Melkor; Milton's cosmology the model for Ea; his account of angelic war is very similar to Tolkien's; Milton's appropriation of Greek myth into the Judeo-Christian mythology is the same technique Tolkien adopts for incorporating all the various myths and mythological systems he uses; and, thematically, the idea of the fortunate fall (that in the course of the deity's larger plan good will always come of evil) pervades Tolkien's story as thoroughly as it does Milton's.
- I have a copy of Paradise Lost, with illustrations by Gustave Dore, and in the introduction they say that Milton's work did indeed strongly influence Tolkien, comparing the battle between Heaven and Hell, and Mordor against the free peoples. I can reference this book, but of course it would merely be someone's opinion rather than a comment by Tolkien. Looking at the influences listed on the page however makes me think that Paradise Lost does indeed belong in the influences section. I will write a short stub that hopefully someone else can expand on later. Desdinova 23:08, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Navboxes/Templates
I've just edited the templates at the bottom of the page, but is it really necessary to have two? The first is quite big for its kind anyway, and they are automatically hidden when there are two or more on a page, which kind of defeats the object of having them in the first place (i.e. to provide easy linkages to related articles). I propose that the second, smaller one (Template:Middle-earth) be removed, as everything contained in there is also on the first one. I also agree with Carcharoth above that they are in an inaccessible position within the page; the vast majority of people will not read the whole article due to its length, and even if someone does, they will almost certainly not scroll past the references. Comments? Time3000 16:51, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
- Not sure what you mean by the templates being hidden automatically. Is this the show/hide bit? I thought that was coded into the individual templates, rather than being a "if two or more" thing, which sounds difficult to do anyway. I don't agree with the show/hide thing in general, but I do have a long-term plan to reduce the template bloat and replace them with a series of smaller templates to navigate between different areas. The large, bloated templates are, in my opinion, better on Portal:Middle-earth. But that will take time and I will have to try and get consensus first. Carcharoth 09:19, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, the "hidden automatically" is the show/hide thing. Re-thinking it, it might actually be better to remove the larger template, as the small one (Template:Middle-earth) has all the significant books, and links to lists of characters, places, etc., and almost everything that Template:Lotr has (except the films).
- With this in mind, I've created another version of Template:middle-earth which is designed to go down the right-hand side of an article, at the top. It is at User:Time3000/Sandbox. I'm conscious that putting it on the article pages could be controversial (especially in such a high-visibility place in a relatively high-visibility article) so any comments or suggestions for improvement are welcome. I've also posted this at Template_talk:Middle-earth. Time3000 15:48, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
High exposure as Today's featured article
On 5th October 2006, this article was featured at Main Page as the featured article for that day. During the course of the day, the article received a high level of exposure, with 453 edits. Mostly vandalism that was soon reverted, but the difference between the beginning and the end of the day (between non-vandalised versions) can be seen here. It's a bit confusing, as the diff algorithm doesn't get it quite right, but it gives you and idea of what changed. Carcharoth 00:20, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- 453 edits on the day it's featured - I do believe that's a new record. Raul654 02:12, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- Confirmed - the previous record holder - cheese - got 410 edits the day it was featured. Raul654 02:19, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- Wow. Thanks. I wonder if anyone has ever analysed the ratio of vandalism to useful edits? (Vandalism plus reverts would in general double the amount of edits). I know some articles improve a lot after being on the front page. I don't think this article improved that much, but then the changes over one day tend to be minor tweaks. Maybe this says something about either the demographics of Wikipedia's readership, the popularity of LotR, or the effect of those movies? Carcharoth 09:14, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Errors in backstory
Maybe I am misremembering the Silmarillion, but I am fairly certain there are a few errors in the backstory.
-Annatar gave the rings out before he forged the One Ring and revealed he was Sauron, triggering the war. The story here gets it backwards and claims he had to take the rings through conquest before distributing them.
-The elvish rings were not independent of the One Ring. All the rings were subject to the influence of it, which is why the elves dreaded Sauron recovering the ring- he would have been able to effortlessly undo everything they had done since the One Ring was lost.
I suspect there are other errors. I have to dig the Silmarillion out of my boxes. Beerslurpy 03:06, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- You are misremembering the backstory. The forging of the Rings of Power was done by the Elves, mostly with Sauron's assistance, before Sauron forged the One. He captured the Seven and the Nine in the war that followed. So he could not possibly have given them out before the war, since they weren't in his possession at that point.
- The article does not say that the other Rings were independent of the One. It actually doesn't go much into the relationship at all. This is in any event a plot point and should be treated in the synopsis section, if at all. But since I'm opposed to lengthy synopsis sections such as we see here I'd not suggest any extension of it, and such details belong either in Rings of Power or One Ring, IMO. The One Ring article in particular does not bring this out as explicitly as it should. TCC (talk) (contribs)
Spelling
I note that several times correct English spellings have been changed to American, at least once with the blunt summary "rv poor spelling". Since this is about a book originally published in the UK, by an English author, is it Wikipedia custom to use English or American spellings of words such as dramatisation/dramatization? Cactus Wren 05:47, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- English spelling throughout. Please change any examples you find. Carcharoth 09:10, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- That's what I thought. Thank you. Cactus Wren 21:09, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- That was my edit. My apologies, I did not know you wanted Wikipedia to be so Eurocentric. L0b0t 14:09, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- I think that we are right in using English spellings for this - it is an English book etc. It is hardly fair to call it 'eurocentrism' in this case: might it not be 'Americocentric' (no idea what the correct term is) to change to American English spellings? Ck lostsword|queta!|Suggestions? 14:25, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
just to nit pick i believe that the hobbit was actually written after the lord of the rings, and only published first. And to be even more nit picky both were written after parts of the silmarillion, though that book was only finished and assembled after both the hobbit and LOTR were published.
- OK, nope. The Silmarillion was a combination of various stories published posthumously. The Hobbit was written before LotR. Ck lostsword|queta!|Suggestions? 21:16, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- I think the OP above is confusing The Hobbit with The Lord of the Rings and The Lord of the Rings with The Silmarillion. It is more correct to say "LotR was actually written after The Silmarillion, and only published first". The sequence goes: (1) Between 1919 and 1937, Tolkien writes lots of stuff that was partially published in 1977 as The Silmarillion (though lots of it remained unpublished until the History of Middle-earth series). (2) In 1937, The Hobbit is published, though the story had been developed over several years previously. (3) Between 1937 and 1949, Tolkien wrote LotR. LotR was published from 1954-55. (4) At times between 1949 and 1972, Tolkien worked some more on the 'Silmarillion' material, but didn't complete this work before he died. (5) Christopher Tolkien (as his father's literary executor) then published lots of this finished and unfinished material, in: The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and The History of Middle-earth. Carcharoth 01:02, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Languages
A disappointingly inadequate amount of attention is given in this article to the languages in the Lord of the Rings. See "Language-making was Tolkien's hobby for most of his life. He is known to have constructed his first languages (Animalic and Nevbosh) at a little over thirteen and he continued to ponder upon his creations up until his death more than sixty-five years later. Language invention had always been tightly connected to the mythology that Tolkien developed, as he found that a language could not be complete without the history of the people who spoke it, just as these people could never be fully realistic if imagined only through the English and as speaking English. Tolkien therefore took the stance of a translator and adaptor rather than that of the original author of his works..." from Languages of Arda.
And from the authors own pen: "The making of language and mythology are related functions. Your language construction will breed a mythology" (MC:210-211).
And again: "The invention of languages is the foundation. The 'stories' were made rather to provide a world for the languages than the reverse. To me a name comes first and the story follows... [LotR] is to me...largely an essay in 'linguistic aesthetic', as I sometimes say to people who ask me 'what is it all about?' " (Letters:219-220)
And even complained: Few people took this explanation seriously. "Nobody believes me when I say that my long book is an attempt to create a world in which a form of language agreeable to my personal aesthetic might seem real, but it is true." - Letters:264.
To the author, it seems, the language superceded the books in importance, yet here they are barely mentioned...--Josh Rocchio 17:39, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- That's true, but equally this page is about the book, not other aspects of Tolkien's creation. You have cited the Languages of Arda page, and that is where this information belongs. Ck lostsword|queta!|Suggestions? 18:46, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- I don't mean that this page should focus on the languages, but as I said, if it weren't for the languages, the book wouldn't exist. There certainly could be a section on this page about it, with a "from main article : languages of arda" heading. It doesn't do the author's vision of the project justice not to mention them here.--Josh Rocchio 18:57, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- I see what you mean. Perhaps we could include a
- See main article: Languages of Arda,
- along with a short section commenting on the importance of the languages as an influence? Ck lostsword|queta!|Suggestions? 19:00, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- Exactly. I don't want to mess with your opus, or I would undertake it myself. I think the article would be improved with it's inclusion, and I think the insight into the motivation of its author would be insightful for the reader.--Josh Rocchio 19:21, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Odd date parsing
The first paragraph in The Lord of the Rings#Publication has a list of three dates for each of the books. At least to me wikimedia is parsing the dates strangely. The wikicode is:
- on [[21 July]] [[1954]], [[11 November]] [[1954]] and [[20 October]] [[1955]] respectively
and is printing as
- on July 21, November 11, 1954, 1954 and October 20, 1955 respectively
Anyone else seeing that? I fiddled with it a little bit and couldn't fix it. Any ideas how to fix?
—Wrathchild (talk) 16:23, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
- I think the comma is messing things up. Does the 'and' I put in there fix things? I'd raise this at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical) as well, so see if they can fix it there. Carcharoth 11:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)