Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2006 December 20

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Bwithh (talk | contribs) at 22:32, 20 December 2006 ([[Quranic reasons for terrorism]]). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
Knights of Glory and Beer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (deleted history)

Article was speedied under A7 (no assertions of notability). On the talk page, the article's creators are vehemently asserting notability. Well, they are vehemently claiming that many people are members and care deeply about their organization. There is no evidence of references in reliable sources as of yet. However, it appears that whoever acted on the speedy acted too rashly, as this probably needs more discussion; the speedy delete is obviously being contested. I currently hold No Opinion pending evidence of notability per WP:N and WP:WEB. Jayron32 20:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Yeah, right. A Guild Wars clan with 55 unique Googles, and the contents of the article was complete bollocks form beginning to end. Not a hope. Guy (Help!) 21:25, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse Deletion Claiming something is notable is not the same thing as offering a valid assertion of notability. If I start an article with "This is really, really, really, really notable," that does not mean it can't be speedied. A valid assertion of notability requires a significant reason for the assertion. The only clan articles I have seen that actually contain such a valid assertion are some recent articles on Halo groups who have gotten a million-dollar contract to publicly compete and help promote the game. As that contract has been widely reported in the press, it's a valid assertion of notability. Fan-1967 21:40, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Church of Google (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (deleted history)

Article described reoccuring phenomenon, documented both in 2004 and 2006, and exhibited by separate sources (links to relevant articles will be provided on request). Furthermore, article passes notability "search engine test", both on Google and Yahoo search engines. Alice Shade 16:31, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thus, test was performed on both Google and Yahoo. While Google results alone about Church of Google would definitely not look persuasive enough, close corellation of Yahoo and Google results gives the ground to state, that claim to "search engine" notability is probably veracious. Alice Shade 17:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The point of wiki article, among others, to refute common misconception, that it`s a joke religion. Maybe it was intended as such, but over the last couple of months, there`s little left of joke, if any. It`s as serious, as spin-off from agnisticism can get. Alice Shade 18:59, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I don`t explicitly insist on restoring the article as a separate item, by the way. According to rules, undernotable topic could be merged into a more general one as subsection, which would be quite enough for this subject for the foreseeable future. Alice Shade 19:39, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse: The thing is that the disagreement between various "originators" is exactly what's wrong with the concept as the target of an encyclopedia article: it's so fluid, so much a protologism, so unsettled in every respect as to be unable to make a legitimate claim to notability. A phrase like "family disunity" will pass the Google test, but that doesn't mean that there is a chapter in the Psychology textbook referring to it. We have competitors claiming to have achieved notability, but these are fragmented shots at the same name, and we can't count them cumulatively. Geogre 21:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Bishop McDevitt High School (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (deleted history)

Reason: Lack of process—As far as I can tell, there was zero discussion anywhere about this page, which is months, if not years old. Within hours, someone had started a new stub, so the only effect of the deletion appears to have been to lose lots of content. Unless I misunderstand the process, it did not qualify for speedy delete, so please re-instate it. User:Centrx is welcome to tag it or start a conversation about notability, sourcing, etc., on the Talk page, or even list it on AfD—isn't that the proper process? Thanks. —johndburger 13:16, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Starfleet alternate ranks and insignia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)(deleted history) —(AfD 1|AfD 2)
It was again a non-concensus (keep if you ignore meritless OR rationale for deletion). No valid reason to delete was given. OR argument is without merit. It was also nominated for deletion one week before the other nomination. The person deleting the article was involved in AfD #1 as well as Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Husnock, Husnock being a co-author of this article along side with me and others. --Cat out 12:32, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • So you say, although your characterisation of the closure as a drumhead indicates that you probably take the subject far more seriously than you should. Now see if others agree with my summary of the deletion debate. Thanks for pointing out Drumhead court-martial, though, as it needed fixing, and that gave me something more productive to do than arguing about Star Trek articles :-) Guy (Help!) 14:39, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was actually pointing to the TNG episode as well as that article. Oh yes, I am taking this as seriously as it is necessary. Frankly, I find your attitude disturbing. --Cat out 16:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Constructively move forward. This whole process has been ugly on all sides. The fundamental premise of the article is very hard to extricate from claims of novel synthesis from published sources, no matter what else is discussed. That, combined with a lack of grievous process violations in AFD2, means the task of DRV is settled, and closure can be endorsed. But, the article's editors make a valid claim that some of this material is not OR. The problem has been a reticence to enforce that bright-line distinction by parties on all sides. Ranks that actually -- by name, not by implication -- appeared in an official but non-canon source should be added to the main Starfleet ranks article (> 32k or not) with a note so indicating that they are in official, but non-canon works (and provide detailed reference for said appearance). Ranks that exist because of questionable costuming or because of wording that strongly implies their existence without expressly and unequivocably affirming that existence stay out of any article. I would humbly suggest that each such rank be addressed in turn at the appropriate talk page to afford sufficient opportunity for review of the sources and inclusion, and to prevent a(nother) repeat of this entire long debacle. Serpent's Choice 14:45, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    I do not believe Afd #2 was properly closed. --Cat out 16:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you, SC, that was precisely the point I was trying to make in the closing summary. We have an article for starfleet ranks, we can add the verifiable ones there those that are rejected there as unverifiable are - well, unverifiable. Guy (Help!) 16:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse closure while also liking the recommendation of Serpent's Choice. Some of the keep opinions misunderstood WP:OR. The most flagrant example was the claim that publication in any source was sufficient to not be original research. That is wrong; it must be a reliable source. To the extent that reliability of the sources was discussed, I think the consensus was that at the very least significant portions of the sourcing was not reliable. Some of the delete opinions were that the entire topic is original research. These concerns were not adequately addressed. [The very topic is "alternate ranks" - where is the reliable source saying that there are "alternate ranks" in Starfleet? (No real military organization would have alternate ranks - either something is a rank or it isn't (plus changes over time).] Without adequate response to that concern, and I can't find a response to that concern which doesn't misunderstand WP:OR, the correct read of the discussion is that the article topic inherently has an original research problem. GRBerry 15:00, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Starfleet is NOT military (picard states this).
    WP:OR means I can't make things up. Alternate in the context of the article's coverage is rank insignia published by sources not considered canon such as Star Trek Encyclopedia, Star Trek: The Animated Series and etc. The books are reliable, the TV show (animated series) is reliable enough for us to have articles about them. --Cat out 16:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion, nothing can trump WP:V and WP:OR, and this article failed both. User:Zoe|(talk) 17:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    How is Star Trek Encyclopedia (ISBN 0-671-53609-5) not a verifiable source. How is it original research? --Cat out 17:37, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reluctant overturn. The doubt that this was OR or not should have defaulted to a no-consensus. As discussed at this first DRV, if you have two legitimate arguments, we shouldn't be defaulting to delete. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion - valid closure based on number crunching, unverifiability and lack of reliable sources. Moreschi Deletion! 17:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    How is Star Trek Encyclopedia (ISBN 0-671-53609-5) not a verifiable source. How is it original research? --Cat out 17:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's dead, Jim. Valid close based on <wince> numbers and, more importantly, reasoning. After what seems like a five-year mission through AfD, we get back to where we should have been in the first place. Once the remaining OR has been taken out, we don't have enough for a stand-alone article and anything that can be found in reliable sources can be added to the main article on Star Trek ranks, with the note that it is non-canon, per SC. JChap2007 18:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    How is Star Trek Encyclopedia (ISBN 0-671-53609-5) not a verifiable source. How is it original research? --Cat out 18:16, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is not AfD MkII (we already had that). In closing, I reasoned as follows: some of this is definitely OR, some is not, some is arguably OR, the title and underlying premise encourage OR, and even if it were not it represents a level of detail in excess of what would normally be considered appropriate. Star Trek: notable. Episodes of Star Trek: fairly notable. Concepts within the universe you see in episodes of Star Trek: a bit notable. Concepts which are discussed by fans as being implied by what goes on in episodes of Star Trek? Not notable, pretty unambiguously so. Guy (Help!) 19:57, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Urgh: I have avoided any previous discussion on this topic so that I might avoid sounding like I was chiding anyone, but such mass scope deletion decisions handcuff us somewhat. Parts are probably valid, and there should be alternatives to "all in" and "all out." Everyone seems to be motivated by good concerns, and I don't detect anyone being malicious, so I hope no one thinks there are vendettas or anything going on. This may be most properly considered at an RFC than the binary of delete/keep. Geogre 21:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Quranic reasons for terrorism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)(deleted history|AfD)

I had no objection to Islamic scholars presenting their Quranic reasons against terrorism to make the article balanced as opposed to its outright deletion. This is just a food for thought, and I won't insist more or get angry for the deletion of the article.--Patchouli 03:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse deletion - afd process seems fine; no new substantive evidence presented. Do you have a complaint about the way the afd was closed, or do you have new supporting evidence of some kind? Otherwise, there's not much here at DRV for you. Bwithh 06:16, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion - closer's reasoning is sound. Guy (Help!) 14:11, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn - the closer, unfortunately, did not present any reasons for deletion - Most of the other arguments seem to be an obfuscated version of WP:IDONTLIKEIT, it's a bad article name (which is not a reason for deletion - it can be renamed), or that the article content exists elsewhere on Wikipedia (but that's not valid, because it's hard to piece together: I'll bet all information in the George W. Bush or monotheism article is somewhere else too). Among the many arguments for delete, there was only one who presented a valid reason: WP:OR (though I can't verify even that without seeing the article, and this too may have been an obfuscation). Finally, there is a reason to keep: this article is extremely notable, as worldwide there is a very large Islamic movement that advocates violence, and most of it quotes the Quran. -Patstuarttalk|edits 18:59, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment We already have substantial content on Islam, the Koran and political violence in in e.g. Jihad, Criticisms of the Quaran, and Islamic military jurisprudence. The major problem with the deleted article (which was the crux of the afd nominator's argument) is that the almost the entire article(googlecached version here was based on the letters of one guy, [Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar], who attempted to run over people with a car (but managed to seriously hurt noone) at his university in North Carolina. This one, obscure guy who apparently wasn't even a member of a militant Islamist group, is not a reliable or authoritative source for content for an article generalizing about how extremist Muslims interpret the Koran. Bwithh 22:32, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I have reverted an insertion of the bulk of the deleted article's content into Isamist terrorism[1] Bwithh 22:32, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Master Exploder (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)(deleted history)— (AfD)

I believe that the debate was closed too soon. The rational that the simple majority of people listed was that it is a song on an album that was not released as a single, and therefore not notable. However, the song was prominently featured in the movie musical Tenacious D in: The Pick of Destiny. The scene where the song is performed has leaked on viral video sites, and has emerged as an unofficial music video for the band, one of the few high points for a film that was a box office failure. Milchama 02:46, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse redirection per trialsanderrosr. Ellissound's concerns can be met by having that information included in the article for the album. The inability of a particular song to qualify for its own article does not imply that the album article should not include content unique to that song, where referenced, applicable and appropriate. Serpent's Choice 05:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse redirection as per trials Bwithh 06:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]