Talk:African immigration to Europe

What Happened to the Black European Page

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Or at least a noted difference between African and Black

"An Afro-European, Afropean or Black European refers to people of African ancestry or Black racial, cultural and social heritage raised in any European country. It also refers to Europeans who trace their ancestry to Africa or Africans who emigrated or were transported to any European nation, especially to France, Germany, United Kingdom, Netherlands, Spain, Portugal, and Sweden. There are reported to be 12.5 million people of African descent living in Europe.

France (including overseas depts.): 3,000,000 - 5,000,000 estimate by the Conseil Représentatif des Associations Noires (ethnicity statistics in France are banned, 1/4 of the Afro-French people are from the smaller islands of the Caribbean, which they were French possessions)

Spain: ~505,400 Moroccans (the largest group of foreigners living in Spain)"

The North African populations of France, Spain, etc. aren't what one would describe as "black". This is merely a matter of misnomers. So while the fact that the number of Afro-Europeans in Europe is correct (12.5 million) it does not describe their origins in a satisfactory manner. This as I see it was the purpose of the Black European page, which helped to break down the numbers a bit. While Black European the page was rather useless on its own, its contents should be reflected here, in that the number of Black Europeans is more around 5 million.

The article clearly indicated in the first sentence "African or Black" (until someone deleted it - i just checked). When I first read this article, there was a separate Black-European article, but someone felt the need to merge it. There is a trend among the more 'influential' wikipedia editors/contributors to eliminate specific destincition within social racial classes. This site doesn't seemed to be concerned with the diverse ethnic, true racial, national and cultural heritages of minority groups across the globe. They are ever blinded by the 'one drop' rule and refuse to acknowledge that aside from the Black and White racial lables, people have their own damned identities. And many don't even take social racial labels into account when reckoning with who they are; many countries don't use them. They hail 'Racial Accounting' as an exact and absolute science, when it's pretty arbritary and very outdated.

I do understand where you are coming from - that being of African origin does not by default equate to being of Black social racial identity (or Black). It's a separate concept as many people of African (regardless of physical features or place of origin) don't necessariy identify with being Black. Many social structures don't demand that they do, not all Afro-Europeans descended from people who inherited this sort of social identity, or were socialized in this way. My thought is that the days of racial imposition were over. Isn't it the human and universal right of every human-being to identify as they wish, socially?

Generally, among Americans there is no distiction, but among many Afro-Europeans where their recent ancestors (who where either/or north or sub-saharan African) didn't neccessarily identify with the concept of being neither white, nor black - being BLACK has nothing to do with their 'root' identities. Even among Afro-Latino/Hispanics who immigrate from Latin America to Europe do not identify as being Black, neither have most of their Afro-descended ancestors. There is vast social, ethnic and cultural diversity among Afro-Europeans that is virtually un-noted.

Among native Moroccans Black identity is not common, but some do identify as such. Black identity doesn't generally describe the identity of Moroccans as a whole; however, some decendents do have traces of sub-saharan ancestry and/or identify with being Black. As do people within other north African countries like Egypt. But not everyone of N. African ancestry does, which seem like most of them, for the most part.

In agreement, this article could do a better job in distiguishing between as well as provide further explaination of the Afropean population. The article could possibly offer the following:

Those living/born/from Europe of African ancestry
Those living/born/from Europe who identify as being Black (or other derived name), or thus label by the social structure of the country in which they reside.
Which true race they decend from (Arabic/Caucasian, Congoid, Capoid)
What region/country they or their fairly recent ancestors hail from.
Aside from the African ancestry, denote groups with other common ethnic/racial ancestries or cultural heritages in addition to this. For example Bi-racial (1 parent native sub-sahran African, 1 parent native Cacuasain European), Biracial (1 parent native Caucasian European, 1 parent native Black/Mixed European), Latin American immigrants and their offspring (Amerindian, African, and/or Caucasian decent), Nigerian immigrants, Caribbean, African American immigrants, trans-nationals...
The social racial identity of Afro-Europeans among large segmented groups (Example: Black identity is more prevalent among Afro-Europeans in England, compared to Spain)
Black Solidarity
Distinct political and social climate within each European country in reguards to Afro-Europeans.
The timeline of occupation/immigration/transport of people of African decent into Europe
Sub-identities among Afropeans (racial, cultural, co-national)
Show trends of (concetual) biracial unions and offspring between African and Europeans in Europe and in Africa; and concentual unions between European immigrants in America and Afro-descedents.
Explain the ethnic heritage of Afro-Europeans who's bloodlines originated in regions where racial labeling overshadows ethnic mixture. (Example: former Spanish colonies)
Religions practiced by Afro-Europeans
The history of Black identity in Europe; parallels between the Black social movement in Europe and that of America, South Africa, and Australia.
Why the Black social movement and Black identity did not permeate in Spain and among Afro-descendents of former Spanish colonial rule.
The Black identity and the Black social movement in Europe, today.
The Black social movement and Misegenation in Europe.
The history of Slavery in Europe
Current labor issues for Afropeans: discrimination, current slave trade of sub-Saharan Africans and Afro-Caribbeans (children; labor and sex).
Political exiles of African countries living in Europe
African countries and their former colonial powers
Recent African refugees and European governments
Affluent/Influential Afropeans
Afropeans in sports, arts, medicine; celebrities and the media.
Afropean inventors
Afropeans in government, law and politics
Collective social representation for Afropeans within the European Union
Afropeans and Education; Pan-hellenic organizations and Afropeans
Noteworthy Afropeans in history
Roman Catholicism and the African-Diasphora
Marcus Garvey and Black Europe
The history of British Monarchy and Afropeans; Queen Elizabeth II and the Trans-Atlantic slave trade
European Monarchies and Africa
Timeline of terms used to distiguised those of African Ancestry in Europe in the past and how they are used/viewed today.
African and European cultural and linguistic fusion in Europe and in Africa.
Economics, marketing and Afropeans; wealth distribution and buying power.
Afropean collective identity; collective culture
Noted differences between being Black and Afro-European.

Perhaps even with the above, the article could be split into many.

The only problem is that there doesn't seem to be much data available that would give this info. When the census is taken in many of these countries, true racial/ethnic ancestry and cultural/national heritage isn't properly accounted for. I've never come across anything that provided a collective sample of peceptions from Afro-Europeans that spanned across social class, immigration status, and country of residence.

Furthermore, with the 'influence' here on wikipedia, an impartial article of the Afro-European landscape will most likely not be exhibited on this site. Most of the articles pertaining to subjects like this one are written mostly from an American and/or Western perspective. If done otherwise, expect high level contest, alteration, redirection or deletion. Relir 13:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Reply